Unknown Speaker 0:00

If you are the foundation of your family, you are the firm footing. They build their lives on. You carry a glorious burden and you never dream of laying it down. You carry it with joy and gratitude. You show up, even when you don't feel like it. You lead, serve, love and protect. You are a father. This is the dead word podcast where men are forged into elite husbands and fathers by learning what it takes to become harder to kill, easier to love and equipped to lead. Get ready to start building the only legacy that truly matters. Your family

Curt Storring 0:59

welcome back to the data. We're podcast. This is Curt Storring, your host and founder of dad work. I am joined today again by Aaron guy yet, there's so much that we wanted to get into last time and we did not this was a few weeks ago. Number 122. I believe the episode was in January, this one should be coming out in February. Man, this guy is crazy. He's got an incredible CV. He has achieved so many things that most men would be happy achieving one of in their life and he has done 3456 incredible things. Eric is a disciple of Christ. He's a devoted husband, loving father and a leadership advisor. He seeks to serve, teach and develop leaders of leaders at all levels and for all teams and organizations. His servant leadership style combined with his life experiences give him a vantage point that allows for deep insights and transformative actions that are unparalleled in the military, fitness and corporate environments. He's a staff sergeant in the Marine Corps Reserves. He earned a Bachelor of Science in Business Management and a Master of Arts in organizational leadership. He holds countless certifications for the fitness industry, he founded and as executive director of a nonprofit called leaders of leaders, where he speaks, writes, teaches and serves to bring about leadership in Christ through rites of passage events, courses, technology, and more, you can find him online leaders of leaders.org disciples in christ.org, or errand guy att.com. He is not that active on social media, but you can probably find them on there as well, guys, this one, I'm going to just warn you here, you're gonna need to buckle up. This was insane. There is some part of this, that I think I'm going to need to go back and listen to multiple times. Because one of the things he said, In fact, most of what he said, was so fundamentally important to parenting that I had to like, take it out of the context we're talking about, and really chew on this. And I think that if you give this conversation, the time, the space and the thought, the careful thought to what he's talking about here, you will see just how important it is for your role as a father. Okay, so we talked about the importance of knowing what you believe about the world, on the most fundamental level. Okay, this might seem like wow, what are you guys talking about? It's like, philosophical, it's existential. No, guys, this is so important when the rubber hits the road. Because if you don't know what you actually believe about the world, you're not gonna be able to build that secure identity in the things that you believe in. You're never going to know what the boundaries are, where you're going, how to lead who you are. So guys, I really want you to listen to this. It's Aaron's testimony basically the letter from atheists nihilists, to disciple of Christ and why that's so important for you, no matter where you are on the belief spectrum, okay. We always talk about leading and guiding your children with a specific rite of passage in mind, to prepare them for the next season of life. And we go into what he includes in the rites of passage, how he does that, and the day to day is homeschooling is discipleship, all that kind of stuff. We're just talking about building a firm foundation of identity and your kids so that they don't become distracted or on the other side, nihilistic when they get out into the world. There's so much more in here, guys, this was a great conversation. Aaron has a fantastic leader. He's doing a great job as a man as a husband and a father. And I think you'll get a lot out of this. Like I said, I needed to have him back on because there's just so much to get into a while to do round three some other day. But hopefully you guys are edified by this. Hopefully we're blessed by this. Hopefully, this helps you in your journey for knowing exactly who you are and how you're going to lead your family. Anyway, guys, if you've been enjoying the podcast, would you please take five seconds, leave a rating or review on Spotify, Apple wherever you listen, or even share this with a dad in your world who needs to hear this who would be benefited, who would be blessed by listening to this podcast. I know we've got a lot of guys listening now. And I would really, really appreciate if you continue to pass this on because it is doing good work. And it's not because I'm so great. It's because of the things we talked about here guys guys don't talk about and the guys I have on here are so willing to go deep and talk about things that have made their lives legitimately better than I think all of us can benefit by listening to these amazing people, these amazing men fathers husbands who come on and share their wisdom so please leave a rating Review share with someone that is important to us so that they can join us in becoming amazing elite men husband fathers guys, thank you for being here. I appreciate you so much. Here's this episode of The downward podcast with Aaron guy get round number two. Here we go. Alright guys, welcome back to another episode of the downward podcast. This is round two with Aaron guy. Yeah, because last time we just killed the leadership conversation. I got a ton out of that and I was just on your podcasts other day. And it's like man, I just need more of this because my nose last time I got through like maybe a third of them. And they're gonna say last time the bio is just like so long and so impressive. So like here you are back for another round and I want to start it just like I hope you guys appreciate this. I just start with a quote. And we'll let you dive into it. Okay, so I think this is from your bio, correct me if I'm wrong, but you say, and guys, we're just gonna get into it. So hold on, hold on your horses here holding your seats, you said quote, so I went from an atheist nihilist and also very anti theist to spiritual. Sounds familiar I did to the issue that I found in the spiritual walk, which I dove into with all the fervor of a fanatic was that I was always two or three questions away from a dead end. The more questions I asked the further from logic and reason, I had to venture to find an answer. Like that's blowing my mind. And you also said eventually, later on that for the first time, your life you had a deep spiritual meaning and purpose. Do so you've you've gone from complete meaninglessness to a deep purpose. But something about that, quote, I have to just get you to talk about it, because it's stirring my heart up, because it sounds very similar to where I went. And I wonder if you just want to talk about this, because we're going to probably try and lead this, from the, you know, philosophical, into the real life application to parenting rites of passage, all the rest of guys, please stick around for this amazing philosophical talk. But where do you want to take this hit? That can lead maybe to to guys having an understanding in their lives? Because man, what you just said earlier, before we started about guys living with no meaning is huge.

Aaron Guyett 6:13

Yeah. Yeah. So I think I'll start with the end, beginning with the end in mind. And then we'll try to reverse engineer this a bit. So now I know I am quite certain God is God. And I am not. Right. So starting starting there. And so but how do you figure that out? Well, I think first you think of yourself as able to, like somehow trick God, test God, tell God, or remove God, right, like in some way, shape, or form. So you're trying to justify, somehow you and your human finiteness are more intelligent than what would be now known in my life as the All Knowing greatest conceivable being the uncaused. Cause, we can go into sort of the deductive logic of that if you would like, and I can. And we talked about that in the morning with my children, because I thought, Man, if I could gird my children, if I could protect them with giving them something like logic. And so if we think about God, like the reason why there's applicability for mathematics to the physical world, is because of God. If it's not because of God, then it's some gnarly, happy coincidence, right? This happy accident, coincidental thing that just happens to work? I mean, that would be I mean, the probability of that is, you can't really count it. I mean, you can there are people that have tried and are like, Oh, it's this and is like, Oh, you fill all of Texas with dollar coins, silver dollar coins, and then you're able to exactly perfectly walk to the perfect silver dollar coin, and you flip it over, and then it's the one with the mark, right? Whatever, like a stuff like that. And even that, it's like totally unfathomable. It's really just unfathomable. But so as a 20, stupid year old kid, that's trying to catch the tiger by the tail, so to speak, or trick God or give God an opportunity, like, oh, well, I've got one for you, God. And if you can't do this, then here it is. And it was my prayer before going into combat, like, well, if you're real, then you'll kill me. Because combat I thought was the perfect place for me to be killed. It's quite high, higher probability of death there than anywhere else at any other time in my life. So it's like, well, here's your opportunity. And it was weird. I think subconsciously, I was doing this thing where I was trying to remove myself from the very scary thing that could be my own death, right. And so just being okay with my death. So it did do a two prong type thing. One, it allowed me to disprove God and His existence. So finally get an answer. And then to not have to be afraid of my own death. And so the beauty of that is that I was able to go through combat and get into ambushes and react very well not out of fear of my own life, but out of like protecting my brothers, or, you know, doing what I needed to do, regardless of the fact that, you know, rounds are coming at me, RPGs are coming at me, still do actionable things to move us forward and to move us against this enemy that's trying to kill us.

Curt Storring 9:25

And then when this was a nihilism part of things, this is when you're just like nothing.

Aaron Guyett 9:29

And so yeah, but then you play that I was like, Okay, well, I'm now no longer afraid of my death. I faced it umpteen times in combat. And I also don't believe in God. But then I find myself in a very conforming, structured world called the United States, nation and society, right, in Southern California. And that's not a good place to be. And I'll tell you, because if then I don't believe that God exists then I what I found is as I I pursued the logic of that is like, well, then there's not really any ultimate purpose, there's not really any ultimate meaning. So we're all just having these momentary meanings, these momentary purposes that we hang everything on. But really, ultimately, we're going to die in and it doesn't really matter, somebody is going to forget you, and then ultimately, everybody's going to forget you. And then ultimately, the universe is going to forget you because the universe is just going to, because of the law of thermodynamics, right, it's just going to continue to not have any new thermic energy placed into it. And so it's going to spread out in this cold wasteland that forgot all of life, or anything that was living, the only things that will exist are the physics of whatever which can be, which we can apply mathematics to and actually tell you about, which is very interesting. But and so this is where I find myself. So then what do I realize in the end, it's like, oh, well, if this is the case, then not only am I now anti God, not just believing that God doesn't exist, I'm actually anti God, because I just think it's foolish a fool's errand. It's a waste of time, and my life is a waste. But instead of killing myself, which would be a pretty logical conclusion, I think, in that regard, in that mind space, instead of killing myself, I'm just going to pretend, because that's what everybody else is doing. Everybody's just pretending. I'm just going to pretend and get mine, whatever that means. Whatever mine is, whatever I feel like mine is going to be for that day, or for that week, or for that year, or for that, whatever. And I'll tell you, my first marriage did not end up ending well, it ended up in divorce. Imagine that, I ended up actually in jail, thinking, like, what the heck am I doing with my life right now. But the interesting part is I kept running into this fact that I made choices, and they had consequences, good choices, generally good consequences, bad choices, generally bad consequences, which really shouldn't have any meaning or bearing. But yet, I felt deep inside, that there was something to that, like, why is this a thing? And then I would get really upset at moral atrocities, which, if there is no values, if there is no meaning, if there is no purpose, there is no morality. I'm just making this up in my own mind. But I felt so deeply about things like justice, and things like people doing bad things to kids, or even, even just people picking on my friends. And they didn't need to, they were drunk and idiots and whatever. And they were picking on my friends, I would be upset about this, because you've morally crossed a line. And so then I would seek to set justice straight. Right, I would set this thing, right. But ultimately, like in that philosophy is like, that's pretty stupid. Right? Yeah, yeah, like that. That doesn't work. Because there is no morality, at least not an objective morality. There's a what I think is right, and what do you think is right? And then we can fight about that until the end of days. And then our kids kids can fight about that, and whatever. And so I'm like, but what is that deep inner feeling that I'm feeling that I'm experiencing? That I and I hate to say it, but it was like this knowing like, I know that that is not right. But that I know that knowing that that's not right, doesn't work in this philosophy, this and it doesn't work in this framework, because nothing is right. And nothing is wrong. It just is. And then it will just cease to exist. Energy will exchange and you know, all these things. And, and so then I was like, Well, I got to find some answers to this irksome feeling inside of me. Like why do I have this feeling? Even though I know that it shouldn't? or doesn't? It shouldn't in my framework, and doesn't point exist? Well, so I started to do anything but Christianity, because I grew up in a Christian trim, dude. Like, if there's any answer, but God, if there's any answer, but Christianity, give me those answers. And the first few, you know, it just seemed as asinine like there's just they just seemed ridiculous. Like, just as ridiculous as me testing God, right? As a 20 step drill. Now knowing that God is God and I am not and what the heck was I even doing right in that moment, but yet and so, you know, like Interspiritual humanism, and there's some good philosophies like Buddhism, and there were some really weird but really cool like mythically I could understand like, how this might represent stuff in my life. In like Hinduism, but yeah, it seemed to me that every time I would ask a couple of questions in, it would reveal itself to be, Oh, you found the end to this, either a there is no end, right? And it's just circular reasoning. Again and again and again. Or, yeah, it's an end. And you have found that, well, this, this is a logical absurdity. Now, the way in which you're thinking like, like spiritual humanism to me, you either end up in, in circular reasoning, or you end up at a very large logical absurdity. Like, somehow you are fractal of the universe, or of the architect or of God. They're just all different, right? But somehow you are this. And yet, obviously, you're screwing things up. So if we are that, then how is it that we can't, oh, no, you can control you can manifest. And this is how you manifest. And so you either end up in this circular reasoning, or you end up in logical absurdity, which actually, circular reasoning is a logical absurdity, right, it is a fallacy. And so I'm like, Man, I just I don't, and I had to the interesting part was, whatever, whoever was the guru of that particular spiritual humanism, I had to have that person's values framework in order for it to work. But then you'd go to another guru, and there's, there's some of the similar values, but then there's a little bit of different value frameworks. And it's like, Oh, I gotta have this person's value. And I'm like, Man, this really does seem like almost like a Marxist Marxian idea of like, power and like, and, and I'm like, Man, that's a slippery slope. Because aren't the Gulag Gulags a thing like didn't millions of Russians die at the hands of this sort of thought process? Didn't millions of Chinese die at the hands of this thought process, and the list goes on, right? And we can point out things in history. And so you start to like, look at a systematic theology of atheism, or deism, or spiritual humanism, or whatever. And what you find in that systematic theology is, the frameworks become really fuzzy and absurd. And that's the only way, if you look at it, and you cross your eyes, it's like a magic guy. If you look at it, and you cross your eyes, and it's everything's fuzzy totally works. If you actually start to fix on certain things, and pick into them, you realize that actually code does not coincide with this other part of your framework that you've got. And so reluctantly, and this is like, years, years worth of work, probably months worth of meditation, stacks of books, read hours and hours, hundreds of hours of time with gurus, or mentors, or spiritual mentors, or coaches or whatever, asking these tireless questions and really pursuing right trying to be as intellectually honest about my pursuit of truth, and my pursuit of why I'm feeling this, this feeling as possible. But what it ultimately led me to was, there is some sort of absolute or universal energy or something, something going on, that's able to kind of hold the scales so to speak, are able to drop the plumb lines of morality drop the plumb lines of and so like, I would toggle between like dualism or there's like this endless battle of good and evil or chaos and order, whatever, or, or I did end up in some sort of like pantheism or panentheism, where like, God sort of infuses every god is the energy behind everything. And, and so then that's why I do have God, but I don't have the fulfillment of that. And so then you sort of get lost in this and then you, if you have enough fulfillment and enough conscientiousness, well, then you're sort of you have this absolute rain understanding. But then also, it starts to like, pour into this like weird power dynamic stuff. And I'm like, I don't know if that is it. I just, I just cannot wash the idea of these Gulags out of my out of my brain, or Nazism out of my brain just can't that concentration camp thing that just can't vibe with that. Even though I'm vibing with everything else.

So savage. Yeah, that was my contention. And I've talked to really incredible, incredibly smart people and that still believe this and I, and I do respect their intellectual honesty. And so I'm not trying to say that there is an intellectually honest people that are in these sort of frameworks or whatnot. It just to me, it was like, it's very much like in the book of Revelation, where they he eats the bread, right? And it's sweet in his mouth, but it turns bitter in his in his stomach, right. And it was It was totally that for me, I'm like, there is still something about it. That is very unsettling, and it is not. And every time I ask another question, it becomes more absurd. And I have to do more circus acts to wrangle this whole thing up. What I found for myself is, the circus acts had everything to do with being able to still justify me and hold me up. And I'm like, I think I'm thinking way too much of myself. And so reluctantly, I'll start this again, reluctantly, I was like, Okay, I'll pursue Christianity. And in my pursuit, it's like, I'm gonna pursue it with the same intellectual honesty with the same fervor of a fanatic that I did all these other things. And so like, I'm gonna read the Bible front to back, you know, I'm going to join a men's group, because I wasn't married at the time, I'm gonna get a spiritual mentor, I'm going to, you know, go to church every Sunday, and I'm gonna see an honestly, very much a skeptic, still him and someone, really, it's gonna be, it's gonna be like, and then what am I going to do? I'm just going to be stuck with understanding that none of this really matters. And, and then, so why am I here? And why are we here? What is all this? And that is not what happened at all. I was overwhelmed with the holy spirit's love. But I think more importantly, juxtaposed with how screwed up and broken I was, how jacked up I sought after things selfishly, and with pride, and how super messed up and how I didn't actually deserve the friends that I had, or the position that I have. Because really, if I got my just desserts, because of this strong justice and strong morality, you know, feeling of morality, if I got what was owed to me, I really shouldn't be here. I deserve I deserve not only punishment, but I deserve death. I deserve a stricken a removal from what is beautiful about creation, what is beautiful about relationship, what is beautiful, and obviously, I know that there's suffering, know that there's evil, I know that there's bad all these things. And I was broken, I was humbled, and I was alive, more alive than I had ever felt my entire life. And I felt more purpose and more meaning that I had ever felt in my life. And and here's the, here's the sweeter part. That bitterness that actually it started with bitterness, right? Taking that bitterness into my mouth has turned into warmth, and satiety, right or contentedness, and sweetness and beauty, and has overwhelmingly filled me. And it only overwhelms me more and more and more. And the more I seek, and the more I ask questions, the more I unveil, and the more I free and the more I actually understand and the more it makes sense. And then I'm like, Oh, gotcha, gotcha on this one thing. And then I'll pursue the answer. And I know I got you. It's like, ah, yeah, got me again. And so that's been the adventure of a lifetime. That's been the journey. And so then how do you help the next generation not have to deal with the suffering, but not put themselves in a weak position where weakness will inevitably lead to suffer any suffering, which will obviously make them stronger, which will inevitably help them? You know, be like, let's it and let's talk

Curt Storring 23:46

on that. Okay. Because like, Okay, well, let's ask, Why did I get you to spend all this time on this? Okay? First of all, it's very important to me that as I'm moving into my own faith journey here of Christianity, and just the everything you just said, which is just this, like, it's so right, and it just continues to sink in and expand and be wonderful. I want that for other people. You know, like, you guys will have heard over the last number of episodes, like we changed directions, because I'm seeking truth now. Okay. And I always was, and I just went through your story as well of like trying this, trying this, trying this, and how deeply Can I worship the self. And the problem is anything you worship, that's not God crumbles under the weight. And man, the self crumble is really hard. And so what I wanted is to have that testimony because beautiful and I want that from other people who might be in that place, just like I was, and I poo pooed it so hard. I was like, Man, I'm so weak for being here in this church. I can't believe it was gross. And I judge my judgment, I judge it and you know, I was found, thank God I was found. But the other practical application here is identifying what you truly believe in the world. And that's not just some philosophical mumbo jumbo that dictates how you act who you are. or, and that really screwed with me for a little bit because one of the questions that Ken curry asks, I had him on the podcast, he's a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, also a believer. And his first question to self identification, or self, where does it go? internal reference was like, What do you believe about the world? Well, who doesn't have like, no, what do I want? What do we need? What do I where am I going? Like, that's how you get there? Yeah. Oh, that's all I need. Yeah, dude. And it's like no one, I truly believe that, that the nature of reality matters. And that matters even more when you are a father and a husband, who are leading a family and a household. Are you leading them from this, like, an unaware nihilism? We're like, Oh, whatever. Like, I'm not going to try harder, because it's all BS. And in the end, or even this, like spirituality, where you're like, Oh, the universe, capital universe, and you're just like, you know, what does that mean? Because there's no backing to it. And yet, if you truly know where you stand, and you identify yourself in that you can lead better, which goes back to original conversation. So that's why we're doing this, guys. If you're like, what the flip? Well, this is at least my intention. Now a couple of things. I want to move into parenting rites of passage from this new base now that we've established purpose and meaning and identity, but what you said there was really important, and I wonder if you want to go deeper on that in terms of the how do I stop my kids from suffering, while also making them suffer enough to have the meaning and the benefit of all the suffering I went through? Because I'm like, oh, no, I don't want him to go through what I went through. But dude, I'm, I'm so thankful now that I did. So what do you think on that?

Aaron Guyett 26:31

Well, I think number one, we have ultra low expectations of ourselves and our children and our families ultra low. Generally speaking, my observation, I could be wrong, in as much humility as possible, present this idea. And we're constantly addicted to and attracted to distraction. Right? And so we're not doing deep work, right? We're not spending enough time alone with our thoughts, which is scary and crappy. To have to wrestle with this thing is why do I exist? And what do I believe about the world and why? And then why is that important? Well, it's not important if you are constantly distracted, and you have no expectations of yourself, nor your family, nor your community, or your nation or your world, right. So yeah, you're, you'd be right. None of that stuff matters. So just go ahead and focus on overfeeding yourself, and trying to keep yourself from feeling any sort of pain or suffering. So, so have a sedentary life. But then see where that leads you, that will lead you to much more pain in the end. Because you will be so weak, weak minded, weak bodied, right? You will be so weak, weak, spiritually, you will be so weak, that it will inevitably crush you. Because you're not even you're not even seeking like the you, capital, you universe, and you know, the power of God and in me, and that I'm God, and you know, or selfishness or pride or whatever, you're not, you're not even seeking anything, right, which is apathy to meaning apathy to purpose, nihilism. And so then, anything that flitters and flashes is what will gain your attention. And all of the things right now are flittering and flashing, and so you will be sucked in and you will become a zombie. Like a lot of people are like, Oh, the zombie apocalypse, it's going to happen. I used to write on this already broke. No, no, no, the zombie apocalypse is here. All right, I've looked around yet. It's just this is the thing that's created zombies out of us, right. But it's expectations. So you have like, increased the expectation of yourself, increase the expectation of your kids. But the thing is, you cannot build and this is what we talked about last time. You cannot build expectations on a faulty surface, right on a on a crappy foundation. So if you have a, an actually, weight bearing Foundation, right belief and an articulation of what it is that you believe or what you believe about the world, and yourself in that world, well, so now you can actually start to build expectations up on that. And so my thought is, number one, I all of our rite of passage stuff in our society, for the most part sucks and there is this really palpable movement that's happening where all of these different people in all these different areas are coming up with a renewed sense of the need for rites or rituals of passage from childhood to manhood or childhood to womanhood or what I do is childhood to adolescence, and then adolescence you earn a certain level of something and then from adolescence to guided adults, right. So these are 16 year olds that still live in your house, right and still are under your head of household rules, regulations, whatnot, but they've got lots of freedom and then from guided adult to independent adult where it's like hey you get to go you know take the world by storm whatever that means, and do so, with the solid foundation of understanding what you believe about the world and you and what you believe about you in the world and what that means to you. And so, some people might say oh well then you're indoctrinating your kid with you know belief systems or whatever like here, let me tell you this, if you are living a sedentary life with no expectations, right sucked into the latest flittering and flashing of things around you, you are also indoctrinating your children your children with a set of beliefs. So, yes, yes you are. So what do I want to give my children so I have chosen because I believe that God has the plumb line of logic right because of God we can have something that is logic, deductive logic, not just inductive logic. So inductive logic would say or inductive reasoning would say I observe this you observe this, everybody else observes this, it happens again and again and again. Right, this is the scientific understanding as well right. So then therefore, this thing is, but deductive logic says, There are known truths that can be known without having to observe something happen again and again. And again. And again. This is just truth can then be true, right through our nine rules of logic, right, modus ponens, modus tollens, hypothetical syllogism, conjunction, right, all of the nine rules of logic, which, hopefully that encourages the listener to be like, Wait, what did he just spit off like three or four of the nine rules of what's the other go look it up. And there's very little written on it. It's almost as if this formal logic which used to be a mainstay, like in the 1700s, right, all of a sudden, waned away. And then what filled that void was things that distract and entertain and and build us into these consumerism and materialism, beasts, right, where as long as I can keep up with the Joneses, I'm doing good, right? And then everybody that I know, to include you that have walked that out, has come back found wanting, it's like, oh, man, I've gotten all those things. I got fame, or I got riches, or I got and I and I know less content, if anything, I feel even less content than I did prior to those things. Why is that? And so, formal logic, let's bring that back was breathe life into that. So my kids know the nine rules of logic. They know what deductive logic is, they know what inductive logic is, which now means okay, we can at least have a logical conversation. And reasonable critically thinking, reasonable children that are then saying, I think this is true because of deductive rules of logic, right? It's a logically valid sound argument. So I believe that this is true, or I believe this is true, because I've observed it again and again and again. And so then I believe this is true. And we can have both right? And so if that is the case, well, now they can build up. And so they understand that, why do we have the applicability of mathematics to the physical world? Well, it's either a happy accident, or it's God, right? Well, what about the beginning of the world? Well, is there an uncaused? Cause? Or is there a cause for that cause that then caused our cause that we find ourselves in existence with and again, you can have an infinite regress, but an infinite regress is far less logical than a stop to it, right? uncaused cause greatest conceivable being right ontological argument, and now they have through what we would call in theology, general revelation. So a revealing of the truth, right? Is revelation, not some crazy book in the Bible, which it's also that too, but we don't have to go there today. But yeah, so general revelation would state that you can know God's existence, right, you can know the truth. And God, you can know the truth capital T, because you can see it in existence. And this is very inductive reasoning.

But then, but then you can also have the applicability of mathematics to the physical world, which we can observe. And we can know with deduction, right? It can be actually a logically valid formula that has sound premises that lead to this conclusion that mathematics exists, right? And does it exist outside of God as an abstract object or and that's a very platonic view of it or whatever, or does it exist because God, right, is it intrinsic to who God is? And so we can go into that, but at least my kids have this breadth of understanding in logic and in logical arguments, and in inductive logic, and then we and then we will step into. And so this helps them formulate who they are and what they believe about the world. And then from there, they can start to then build expectations of harder work, right? And then okay, well, why would we have hard work? Well, we can justify hard work. From a deductive logic standpoint, and an inductive logic standpoint, we can observe in our environment, why, if there's a lack of hard work, why it doesn't really work out very well, right choices have consequences back to the very first of a call back to the very beginning of this talk, right? choices have consequences, right? They understand that as well. But then from a deductive logic standpoint, right, is work something from God? Right, is there and then we can start to create an argument with hopefully sound premises that lead to a conclusion that is like, Oh, I'm gonna work hard, right. And these are obviously this is sort of Lego building at the very beginning, where it's doesn't look as cool, but you're kind of building this amorphous shape. But then it can start to have beauty and detail and effect in their lives. Because with this solid foundation, what they won't, where they won't find themselves is either a distracted or be lost and confused, right. And so if they're not lost and confused, and they're not distracted, then they probably have this significant purpose of their existence, which we know because God is God, and I am not, I'm very aware of that. And so I can, I can know certain things. But there's probably more that I don't know, than what I do know, but in what I do know, right, it can give this epic meaning and epic purpose, to hard things, and challenge. So not trauma, because it happened to you. But But trauma and difficulty and challenge because you're going to pursue that, because you have a deep seated purpose to do something, be something, have something, create something, whatever, whatever that might be, instead of because you selfishly want to build yourself up and try to then find the bottom of Instagram of fame, or of wealth, or of whatever the case might be, which I'll never find the end of it, it will just get weirder, more chaotic, and you will be lost, right? Then you'll be lost. But no, I am found. And so now I'm found in this purpose, to honor God to glorify God to worship God. And I can do that through every aspect and area of my life. So where I won't find myself is, if I'm distracted, then I am not glorifying God, I am not honoring God, if my expectations are low, and I know I look in the mirror, and I know, I've gotten more in me, I know that I'm better than that. Right? Again, that's not glorifying God, my being is now not glorifying God, because I'm phoning it in, right, I'm dropping my pack. And so all of these things can build this really strong foundation and then framework from which to have humans that are are strong, right, and they don't need weak times, to make them strong. It's because it's not the times or the season, or whatever, that gives them purpose and gives this function. It's that all everywhere, spirit, you know, forever, all loving, all knowing, all powerful, all good, try personal, greatest conceivable being the uncaused cause that gives them purpose, and that will never come back found wanting that will always come back found full right. And there will be times of spiritual drought and times where you feel this disconnection and that too will prove God in your life and that too, will prove that you are still finite, God is still God. And but you can have purpose there can be purpose in the suffering there can be purpose in the spiritual drought in this feeling of lack of connection, there could be purpose in my epic, like, challenge to God being totally lost, totally nihilistic, there can be even purpose to that, which was obviously ill informed wrong, and frankly, stupid, young and stupid, right, and very egotistical. But even that can have purpose now, even that can have meaning. So that is, so that's the rite of passage, we build out a five day 12 a 12 year old rite of passage. 10 day epic 16 year old and a two year 16 to 18 year old read a passage to independent adulthood. And a lot of people think like oh, it's because you're a militaristic and you've got this like, no No, no, like, we have a blast. Almost everything that we do is fun. There's often challenge in that, and then you know, Dad's got to be dad, and be like, Nope, we're gonna do this, this is challenges part of the part of the deal. But most of the time, it's just fun. And most of the time, it's very, it's very small little moments that turn into these can over consistent time turn into these huge moments, huge mountains of understanding.

Curt Storring 40:31

Oh, this is me taking like a very legitimate breath. Because that might have been one of the most important things I've ever heard about parenting. I'm not like, I hope that you guys pick that up. And I'm honestly gonna have to go back and listen to this like three times to get everything that you just said in there. I'm feeling extremely over my head in terms of just everything that's going on. And I think what I just grasped is this way to allow for massive meaning. Without the pointless suffering that I feel like we went through looking for all the wrong things and that, like if I can, if my job as a father can be to instill, not instill in courage, the self identity that will never have them question that seems very important. And to know that that can come from a base of solid truth and the understanding of logic like dude, that didn't even register before what you just said. And I know that because it's difficult for me to understand right now. I'm sure there's probably smarter people than me listening who understand, but maybe there's people like me who are gone, like, Oh, I'm gonna have to put that back on repeat and listen to it like point five speed. Could you go back to the Lego blocks? analogy? Which is like, how are you doing this dude, because I think about that sitting down with my kids, like, we homeschool too. Like, what do I do? So can you just go into like how you would structure this? Yeah, go to that. Yeah. And

Aaron Guyett 41:54

typically, the way this conversation when I typically start begin with the end in mind, and then reverse engineer from there, so the end. So if the first thing I did was I just got my kids really excited about this epic challenge, right. And like, like, every human is thirsty for adventure. Right? Every human, even the one that's seemingly a drone and zombie trying to find the end of tic toc or whatever, even that person is they are seeking. The reason why that works is they are seeking a deep an inner like welling up of newness and challenge and engagement and entertainment, and bad feelings and good feelings. And I mean, that's, that's life. And that's adventure. But they're just getting this like, mitigate mitigated muted version of it, that just pulls them in deeper and keeps them from actually experiencing that stuff. So every human has a thirst for adventure, at least from my inductive reasoning, understanding, right? From my observation, it seems to me, I haven't found a person yet. And haven't read about a person yet. That was like, yeah, no, I just, I, I really, I wake up in the morning, I look myself in the mirror, I'm like, if I could sit on the couch more today, and just kind of drone the minutes away. I mean, I understand that there's some people that actually do desire this because they desire rest, like true rest. But like, nobody's waking up. And like, Man, if I could just live a less purposeful life, you know, who we want purpose, we want adventure. And so, because of that, like I know that want to get my kids excited about this adventure that they're gonna go on, when you're 12 years old, it's going to be this incredibly difficult challenge, but so rewarding, you will be able to stay at home without your parents, you'll be trusted to go to town. And we live in a sort of a rural area. So we say things like go to town, you'll be able to go into the city or wherever you live, right by yourself, we will trust because we know that you that you know basic life saving skills, you know, basic survival skills, you know, baselines above the baseline below baseline understanding. So you can know when something bad might happen, or you could kind of be left to bang, right to use the combat Hunter term or whatever. We know that you know how to swim competently and even more competently, you could actually rescue somebody in the water, we know that you can run for a really long time, we know that you can bike further in time, we know that you can do some sort of self defense we know that you know all about weapons safety. So you ever come across a weapon like you know what to do. You don't feel lost in that so and so the first the 12 year old one is like these basic human things that I think we all desire, but oftentimes just don't do. And so but then in that it's like, okay, well, that's the 12 year old, which actually is just the setup for the 16 year old. It's actually not even I mean, yes, it's a rite of passage. And yes, you're gonna cross from being a child, you're no longer going to be a child. You're going to be an adolescent, right? So you are sort of moving up if you will, and Every kid most kids, my middle, maybe not so much. But it seems to me most kids want to be an adult want to have more responsibility want to have more freedom, as do most humans. But what comes with freedom is responsibility. And we have to we can't forget this, right? This very Viktor Frankl ease, you know, the Statue of Liberty should be balanced by statute responsibility on the West Coast. And I agree with that totally, wholeheartedly. And so. So then, okay, so what it does is it actually forces me the parent to be intentional to set aside time to train for this thing, so that they don't end up in a sloppy mess in the beginning of it and can't finish it. And could they fail? Absolutely. And they know, if you fail, guess what, back to training, you got to do it again, until you pass it, because you don't get to be an adolescent, right in this household and in this community at large, until you have passed your 12 year old rite of passage. And so basically, what this has turned into is weekends we do like survival training or some sort of some sort of nuanced approach to the training side, we learn how to make a fire without matches, or we learn how to build a lean to or shelter or we learn how to set a trap or we go shooting and learn how to shoot and operate a pistol or shoot and operate a shotgun or right now they're not even into shotguns or pistols. They're it's like carbines, rifles, and bows and arrows. We learned how to use a knife we learn how to use a handsaw, you know, basic basic stuff like that. And, and then during the week, every URL I should say, every single day, in the morning, we spend time memorizing the rules of logic, but it's all in well, the rules of logic, they just spout it off. My kids are like memory, geniuses, and I think all kids are honestly. So get them to memorize young, and then you don't have to worry about it when they're older. Because they have, they'll have those things for the rest of their life. And we know that because we remember commercials, you know, like Doublemint gum, or you know, like the stupid Diddy's or whatever, filling our brain and like, can I just remove it so I can put something better in there? Anyways. So But most things, it's like some sort of song form. We do like ASL American Sign Language for scripture memory. But then we do is so we have these memory pegs is what we call it in the classical conversations, community, like kind of homeschool community we're in. But I didn't. So this isn't part of the classical conversations, homeschool stuff, this is created based off of their rite of passage what they're going to need to know. So what we have then is, is these rad conversations about logic, these rad conversations about the existence of God or the attributes of God, or, like my daughter, Ellie, seven years old this morning said, Well, if this is amazing, if God created the universe and everything and created us, then who created God? And I'm like, man said, every atheist ever that's listening to this. And this is like out on the interwebs. Like, totally. So do we have an infinite regress on our hands, folks? But then I said, Okay, well, what attribute of God that you have memorized, would actually give you the answer to that question. And my other daughter quickly got us forever. Absolutely. If God is forever, then God never didn't exist. God always existed, right? And then I was like, What about the other? Oh, God is self sufficient? Yeah. So God is self sufficient. He is the uncaused. Cause, right? So he is sufficient, a sufficient being on his own merit, right on his own regard on his own greatest conceivable beingness. Right, in his own being. And so they were able to answer their own question, right. And so getting them to wrestle with these, and I want them to answer these questions. You know, and a lot of times, I think a lot of people they think, in these scenarios, it's, it's, you know, this weird, fanatical, religious guy going because the Bible said, so, you know, I'm shoving this. The interesting part is, there's a lot of times where it's like, Well, the Bible does say that the Bible does talk about this, and let's go to that scripture and talk about it, or one of the scriptures that we've memorized, answers that question. And then so why is it that we revere scripture? Why is it that we see Scripture as

true and all that it teaches? True and all of its principles, that it's that it's teaching us verbally inerrant, or to verbal extent, right, and to a plenary extent and to a confluent extent, which verbal means every single word of it? plenary means the whole of it as a whole. And then confluent means God is interacting with human authors to somehow create this thing. That is scriptures and then scriptures. If Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, and he was saying that the scriptures are something to be revered scriptures are true, is like, man, maybe well, maybe we should take note of this. But I digress, we will then I, then I was like, well, in what argument for for God's existence that we have memorized that the six that we have memorized? Which one of those answers that question, and they're like, the ontological argument, and I was like, No, that just talks about the greatest conceit, him being the greatest conceivable being. So that doesn't necessarily mean that he existed forever. But the article from or the argument from contingency? Absolutely. Right. And, and so we have these like singsong versions, and then we'll sing it, and then we'll talk about it, and then we'll break down like, Okay, why does that, you know, argument from contingency answer this question. And again, I don't have to bore you with the details. But what what this does is this creates this time, where I am actually held to a much higher expectation, like, well, what if, and I'm sure that the person is asking, Well, what if I don't know this? Well, then you better know it, because I bet you, you have the capacity to know it, I know that you have the capacity to know it. So then get to know him, you know, knowing God, right, and making him known or glorifying God would be a purpose of humanity that is unbreakable. But also knowing God, and making him known is a purpose that can be unbreakable. Well, what is knowing God, so knowing can be this intellectual knowledge. But knowing can also be this intimate connection with, right and this enter an overwhelming that you have talked about, and I have talked about this overwhelming experience of God, that is undeniable. And it's as real as as talking right now. But it wasn't physical. And it's like, man, and so and so then we, you know, talked about that knowing God and making him known. And then we get to break that down. And so what this does is, we have now rhythms weekly, daily monthly rhythms, that all lead up and are all training them to be able to pass this rite of passage. But more importantly, the whole purpose of the rite of passage is so that they get out into the world. And they don't get washed and blown about by every wind and wave of new teaching, right, as Paul writes so eloquently, they're not going to be just lost and confused, or completely distracted and apathetic, right? lost and confused, and nihilistic, or distracted, and apathetic and don't care, they will have none of those things, they will experience life in its fullest. To include go through times of suffering in times of difficulty, but then have something that they can lean on, that they can have a foundation, and that they can know, even though I am suffering, I can count it joy, doesn't mean I'm feeling joyful, but I can count it as joy. Because this, too, is an experience that God is giving me. Right. And, and ultimately, I get to spend this incredible love relationship with God for the rest of eternity. And what greater thing could could happen? I mean, and we could think of a lot of great things like snowmobiles, or jet skis, you know, right now, that would be pretty awesome. But all of those things pale in comparison, because we really can't understand eternity, we really can't understand infinite, we really, we can't fathom that we can talk about it, but we can't really fathom it. And so yeah, I want more than anything for my kids to be able to experience it. But then now I'm actually getting more from it, because my expectations are higher. And I'm having to learn this thing by learning it and then learn it by applying it in my life and then learn it even further by teaching it to my to my children. And isn't that the job of a parent anyways? Like, if you're not doing that as a parent, then well, what are you doing? And then and then I would ask, then who is teaching your kid? Because somebody is and I don't know. If it's if it's the TV that's teaching them that kid is gonna be screwed up. And I'm sorry, but it's true.

Curt Storring 54:28

Yeah, well, it's like it's like the way you set up with the brainwashing thing like, are you just brainwashing your kid like, well, someone's gonna raise them if you're not actively doing that then it's not a vacuum vacuum doesn't just stay vacuum. So you are filling it with something and it's probably crap.

Aaron Guyett 54:40

Yeah, so So yeah, so I don't know Does that answer?

Curt Storring 54:44

Goodness yet? Like, does that help? We need to like go into a lounge, get some smoking jackets and get like a cigar and sit down for hours to process this. And I've got so many points I'm gonna have to go back and listen to but basically it just to summarize as it sounds like The entire thing because I was thinking about this as like, Okay, you got your logic and your homeschool. And then separately, you've got your rite of passage, but you went back and forth number of times, and I'm thinking now that like, you are just raising them through this entire gauntlet, where you're at home young, before they become 12, to teach them and train them into things that they'll need to know by this 12 year old passage. And that just at the very least gives you some understanding of where you're going, which allows you to lead which is exactly what we need as leaders to have this map and this destination where you're going. And then you just continue to progress. And by the end of it, it's almost like every time they step through that door, they have this weightier identity. And it's not something like you said distraction, versus that the nihilism basically, I think was the distinction. Like that's incredible. I love that. Is that what is going on here, you are leading them through periods to solidify their identity. And you just happen to know, through deductive and the other one logic, what these things are? Is that what I'm picking up here?

Aaron Guyett 56:03

Yeah, yeah, basically. I mean, first of all, God is God and we are not so so there is a you can, you can lean heavily on that just that phrase alone, right? Understand that God is in control that God is all powerful that God is all knowing God is sovereign. And so you will screw this up, you will screw this up, it's up, but it's okay. Like your screw ups can lead can ultimately be good. It's fine, right? Do not pursue screwing it up. We're we're, and so yeah, we're just pursuing a lifestyle that incorporates knowing from our worldview. You can lean on God that God has got and we are not. But then also, that we're going to pursue, right, and we're just going to live lead a lifestyle that incorporates what it is that we believe about the world around us, and articulation of that belief. And so if your belief system is paltry, or barren, or has very little in it, then know that you're going to lead your children with that same belief system. And then, you know, a lot of parents are like, Oh, well, I'll just hope that they are able to make but what will what are they going to use to make a decision on what it is that they believe or don't believe? What are they going to throw that up against? You're giving them nothing, right? Nothing from which they can weigh things, and nothing from which they can compare. And so yeah, we're just living a lifestyle that incorporates what it is that we believe, and we're, and we spend time daily, confirming and reaffirming and reaffirming that belief with ourselves and my belief system in God in Christ and the Holy Spirit. Right, in this Christian God. And, and then also with our kids, right with this Christian God. And so the the rite of passage, yeah, it just gives sort of a touch point, and a place where they can see an experience, and then the community can also affirm and confirm to them that you do have an identity and that identity is not one of a child, it's one of an adolescent. And that means something, right, that not only means something because you pursued a very challenging and difficult thing and prevailed. But that also means something because God because of community, because your parents because of the freedoms that you have now, because of the responsibilities that you have now. And, and so you don't necessarily have to incorporate all these things. But you can also incorporate all like, I laid this all out, and I'm like, please, it's free. I played like plagiarize the heck out of I don't care. Like, this is sorely needed in our society. And if and so right now, I'm actually putting together the, like daily, weekly curriculum type things that, hey, this is something that you can institute, this is something that you can institute, and I'm not none of this, I'm like, you have to do it this way. But I'm like, they this is how I'm doing it. And I've articulated it, and I've wrote it all out and explained it. And so here's a resource for logic, here's a resource for, you know, Understanding Arguments for God's existence, here's a resource for all the different things that we're passing them through, but our kids are basically passing through a screen, you know, every day, like, not a screen that you look at, but like a filter, if you will, right. And so then we get to select what is in that screen that they're going to pass through. And so then what's going to stay on this side of it that's not valuable, and then what's going to end up on the other side that is valuable. And so because of just our lifestyle, and the fact that we talk about it, yeah, this is just who this is just who we are and how we interact with the world, which prior to this, my nihilism and all that. was just who I was, and how I interacted in the world. Right. And so if I was raising kids in that, I would be raising my kids with this same type thing. And so I encourage and even challenge the dad, it's like, well, have you thought about it, and if you haven't, like, maybe think about it, you know, and, and, and spend some moments in boredom alone, so that you're forced with force to deal with your own thoughts about stuff, or spend some time journaling and writing it out. And then realizing, like, how ridiculous that is, or how amazing that you know, whatever it is, right, but it's like, get some sort of feedback with your life, so that you can then bring your expectations up, but but also bring the expectations of your kids up. I think, like, God is gonna make my kids suffer, or I'm gonna make my kid work. Like my parents. I am a hard worker, because of how my parents raised me. But there's a bunch of other things where I was, I was lost, I was clueless. I didn't know. I mean, at least I knew hard work. So that's good. But man, I didn't really have any values. It was kind of just whatever the peers around me had his values. Okay, yeah, I'll do I'll do these values. So I can be accepted into this group. But the problem with that is like, what if you get in the Nazi group, like, well, now you're accepting Nazi values, you know? or what have you get in the Marxist group, and now you're accepting communistic, Marxist values, right? Where it's the strong, like, the bourgeoisie is a small amount of people. The proletariat, the working class, we're big, we're great. So our strength can then our power can then, you know, overtake them, and then we can rule but then the alligator ends up eating itself, at some point, right? And then they start, who's the bourgeoisie now, you know, like, so anyways, we don't have to delve into those things. But yeah, it's, I don't know, it's an I do know, for me, but for you, for the listener? I don't know. You know? And you know, that you don't know. Or you don't know that you don't know. And maybe now you know. And so now like, okay, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to choose to know?

Curt Storring 1:02:23

Yeah, man. Okay, so this, this rite of passage is not yet a thing that you're doing offering whatever? Are you running it? Is it a local thing? Like, how can I tap into this resource? And that may be the last thing?

Aaron Guyett 1:02:35

Yeah. So no, it's a course that you would take. And I say at the beginning of the course, I mean, I'd love to beat your kid up. That's maybe the old me speaking. Very nihilistic. Very propane, Marine Corps, whatever. sadist, maybe a little masochist in there. Now, I'm not like psychotic in that realm. But it's like, I would love to you Sure? What's your kid gonna get out of that? What's your child's gonna get out of that. So like, I don't, I don't run it, you run it, you're the parent, you run it. But here, I will give you all of the notes. You can take what you think is valuable, and leave what you think is invaluable. Or you can rewrite the whole thing. Or you can pursue it in exactly the way in which I'm pursuing it with my family and my children. I clearly articulate the five days and justify why I have the five days in the six in the 12 year old rite of passage, clearly articulate how we do the ceremony afterwards, if we do a ceremony and who we invite and how we interact with that and celebrate this moment where they go from child to adolescent. Same thing with the 10 day rite of passage, when they're 16 years old, I clearly articulate what exactly we're doing what exactly they have to do, how they have to prepare for it. And then what then that means, right, what freedoms they get, what responsibilities and then how we do the ceremony of going from adolescent to becoming a guided adult. And then I clearly are. And so that's in coursework in discipled, in christ.org, on the site, and then I think, right now the app is in beta. So soon, it will be an app that you can get on your Apple, iPhone, or iPad or whatever, or your Android devices. But yeah, so that course is on there. And then it's, you know, listening to me chat in the same way that I did today hear about, here's why I do it. So then, that can help the person right, that's implementing the parent that's implementing it. Okay. Yeah, I can't justify this. I'm not going to put that in there. Or oh, yeah, now that makes sense. I'm totally going to use that. Or just, hey, I'm gonna follow it soup to nuts, you know? Yeah. And then and then I'm right now I'm building out the actually what I'm doing with my kids, like as we're doing it, and so Oh, what's coming out of that, as I say, we've got, we've got videos where it's me and the kids doing ASL and Scripture songs, it's me and the kids with our six arguments for God's existence, me and the kids reciting the nine art or nine rules of logic or the or 10 attributes of God, right, all of this stuff. And so, all of these are short, small, little snippets. And here's the thing. One of those videos, if you just, if you just watch one video a day, and then watch it until you memorize it, and then watch another video, you would have nine rules of logic, six arguments for God's existence, 10 attributes of God and right now 11 scriptures memorized before the end of this year before the end of 2023. If you just sat with that video until you had it memorized, and then you watch the next one, and it's, it's a minute, it's two minutes, right, a minute or two minutes. Like, it's literally no time. It's like, why, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you do this? And then it's up to you, if you want to spend more time expanding on it and talking about and asking questions and all that stuff, which inevitably, I think that you would find, if you're a parent, and you're watching this, and you're like, Yeah, I'm going to implement this, this is going to be maybe some of the most fruitful time you will have with your kids. You know, maybe barring praying together, or going to church together or eating a meal together. Right? Those are going to be probably pretty significant moments in their lives as well. And then truly life changing not only for you, but for your, for your children. So yeah, so it is all there. Not all of the curriculum and all the ways in which we train, we're slowly making those videos where it's like, then building a shelter and then starting a fire and then doing CPR, my kids, my kids found out that they need to get stronger. They work out every day, they found out that they need to get stronger, because they can't do CPR in an adult. We have these little CPR, those little CPR mannequins, they can't press it down and make the click. And I'm like, Dude, if mom and I, like fall over have coronary or or Papi, you know, or granddaddy or Graeme does, like, that's it just calling 911 and hoping that they survive, you know? And it makes it like really real for him. But then they're like, Yeah, well, let's get stronger. And so then you can redirect. And it's like, so now they're like, I've got reasons behind why I'm doing push ups.

Curt Storring 1:07:23

Yeah, so good. You know, incredible do this is I feel exhausted in the best possible way. I really appreciate this man. Because yeah, that's none of that stuff would have entered my mind otherwise, so very much appreciative.

Aaron Guyett 1:07:38

And also, you're welcome.

Curt Storring 1:07:41

Okay, so discipled in christ.org, everything you can find there anywhere else you wanna send guys?

Aaron Guyett 1:07:48

Yeah, disciple of christ.org. And you can you can reach out to me through that pretty easily. I respond to everybody. So we'll

Curt Storring 1:07:54

put that in the show notes, either in the podcast app or a Dad.Work slash podcasts. You can find that, bro. Thank you. I appreciate this. Maybe we'll do round three some other time, and I'll have some more stamina. I never know how we're gonna have to go deeper. I don't know how it's possible. But anyway, man, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Aaron Guyett 1:08:10

Nice. Thank you.

Curt Storring 1:08:14

Thank you for listening to the Dad.Work podcast. That's it for this episode. But if you would like to stay in touch between weekly episodes, why don't you go over to Instagram and follow me there because I draw up a number of things throughout the week that are related to what we talked about on this podcast, but usually go a little bit deeper, provide some tips you can find me on Instagram at dad work dot Kurt. That's da di W O RK dot c u r t. And please, if you have been getting something out of this podcast, if it has touched you if it has improved your marriage, your parenting or your life, would you please leave a quick review on Apple or Spotify. leave a rating. If you have a few extra seconds, leave a quick review. That's the best way that we can get this work in the hands of more fathers. And I truly believe that we change the world, one father at a time, because each father that parents better that loves better raises children who do the same. And in just a couple of generations. I feel like we could be living in a world much better than the one we live in today. Your review will help along that path. And I thank you so much for being here to listen until next week. We'll see you then.

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