Curt Storring

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Dad.Work podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of Dad.Work Welcome to episode number 46 Long Distance fatherhood and being a dad without borders with my guest Blue Netherclift. We go deep today talking about co parenting when your child lives overseas, how Blue develops a secure attachment with his son living halfway around the world, consistency with your child and being open with your feelings, learning to let go and trusting the process leaning towards gratitude as opposed to anger and frustration, finding practices that will help you stay grounded and the power of your own thoughts. Blue is a father to two young boys with another baby boy on the way he went through a difficult breakup with his first wife but Blue has remained positive and become resilient by parenting creatively to maintain a strong connection and close bond with his son that lives overseas while raising his young family with his beloved wife sage from taking up skateboarding at age 45 to FaceTime dance parties, from recording bedtime stories, audio files to online photo albums and tracking his son's calendar at school so he knows what's happening each week. He is an engaged in resilient long distance parent and full time dad Blue is now using his podcast Dad Without Borders to shed light on the positive aspects of being a dad on the shitty side of a breakup with kids while chatting to dads about their challenges, all with a positive spin and professional feedback from his inner circle of professionals. Blue works to expose dads as often being undervalued and overlooked and an integral part of any child's life as we move into a new era of fatherhood. Blue emigrated to Canada in the early 2000s. As an entrepreneur with an adventure tourism company. He has over 20 years of experience working in outdoor education as an instructor, guide and facilitator. When he became a father, he shifted gears to focus on his family. And his recently worked as a career facilitator and coach. Currently he works for limiters, an online educational platform developed to connect kids with nature through a blended learning program. You can find Blue online, listen to his podcast at Dad without borders, comm or find him on Instagram at Dad without borders. I know that was a bit of a long intro, but I wanted to read that for you. Because this is such an incredible story. I am not sure I've ever heard of a situation quite like Blues', when it comes to the difficulty of co parenting. This is next level and the fact that he talks about developing secure attachment and the dedication that he has to actually being there for his son, even when he's not able to do that physically, is just remarkable. I was so inspired by the care and attention and energy that he puts into fatherhood. And I think you'll get a lot out of this episode. This was a wide ranging episode, it talks a lot about how Blue manages to maintain resilience and gratitude throughout a process that is incredibly difficult. And I'm just so grateful that he shared this with us. So with that being said, we're gonna dive in now to Episode 46 with Blue Netherclift

[00:02:44] I'm here with lunatic left with Dad Without Borders. And man, I am super pumped about this because I keep getting like I said before guys asking me like, can we talk about single parenting? Can we talk about, you know, co parenting, what it's like to go through separation? And it's like, okay, let's talk about that with Blue. And then let's throw in this like monkey wrench of parenting across the ocean. So man, I am very grateful that you spent the time to be here with me today. And I just want to get a sense of like, What the hell is this all about? Man? Why are you doing this? What does your life look like? And what are the challenges that you deal with daily? Can you like, maybe give us like a quick walkthrough of how this all came about?

Blue Netherclift

[00:03:23] You mean the podcast, which is how I go to this stage with a family and your

Curt Storring

[00:03:27] family? Yeah, I'm trying to leave it like somewhat open so you can interpret how you want. But I want to know, like, what was the story to become the Dad Without Borders? Like, why is this a thing for you? And then we'll get into like how to navigate it. But I just want to hear like what your life looks like.

Blue Netherclift

[00:03:43] Yeah, for sure. So we're living in a remote part of British Columbia. So we're sort of tucked away here in the mountains, sort of seven hours east of Vancouver, so close to the Rockies. And I've been here sort of skiing in the winters and based in BC since around 2004. So yeah, so slowly, sort of spending more and more time here to the point I was ready to settle. And then I had a partner Well, I rekindled an old flame in the UK and she came over here to be with me in 2012. We had we conceive the baby and we got married, but then the relationship fell apart. And so we ended up going into this space of co parenting, which was actually really great. I've often joked to people that co parenting is kind of the best situation in a way because you get to have your life half the time and then the half time gets to be a dad. But having said that there are some challenges to that, which is another topic. So that's kind of that was the situation for a couple years. So I ended up becoming a single dad, a co parenting a really successfully our kid was really thriving for a couple of years. But then the mom wanted to go back to the UK and I just couldn't bear for him to go. And so I just couldn't, you know, it was kind of a messy situation, unfortunately. So we were in and out of court for about two years and that brought Me too, then I sometimes say losing custody. But really what happened is she was granted full custody so she could move with him to the UK. So he was at that point, almost five years old. So yeah, so I, you know, after a couple years of being on my own, and it was kind of in the middle, I guess, of like, figuring out what was going to happen with the custody issues, I fell in love with this amazing woman. And we have an incredible relationship. And so we decided to have a fam start a family, she's a bit younger than me. And we were just like, we felt like it was right for us. And we've been through so much, and she was an amazing support. And I honestly think that love from her is really what helped keep me on an even keel. And so we had another child, unfortunately, you know, my eldest boy at this point, and then afterwards, we lost custody, or I lost custody, and he moved away. So then I was faced with, Oh, my God, I've got this amazing partner why we got married, so wife here, and new child, and I've got a child over, you know, overseas, you know, it seems like an impossible situation. So that's, that's the set that sort of that sets it up. Yeah, without going into the nitty gritty of why we're doing for work. And like how I was sort of navigating becoming a dad and things, which is a whole other, you know, another piece of the pie. But that's sort of set the scene. So at this point, we now have another my wife here, we have another child on the way. So he's going to be do me another plan, both planned? I would say as well, it's not always the case. But both were planned. There was a lot of desire for my first boy to I should say, and then these other two very much, but it was a bit of a surprise. And these two have definitely been planned. And yeah, I kind of Yeah, it's a crazy situation. But I'm sure you've got more questions to throw in here. But I just distill for my little setup here. I will just say, when I was faced with my child moving overseas, I went to see a Family attachment specialist been in the business for over 20 years. She's got really, really good reputation. She's fantastic. And I work with I work with her I had like just one session, actually, I went a few times, but the first session, she got me really, really hopeful. Because she said, You know what, you can have a secure attachment with your child. Even though he's overseas, he might not even have an a secure attachment with his mum, you do want that. But she, you know, it's possible for you to have a secure attachment, but him not to have a secure attachment with his mom. And I was like, that's crazy. How do I do this? So I realized then I was like, okay, game on. I'm gonna do this, like, I am not going to give up. I fought hard for two years. And I would encourage anyone to avoid court 100%. And I thought, yeah, so we've definitely encouraged to avoid that. That was really seeking professional advice. And maybe we should have done that right at the beginning. When she decided to leave. We didn't we kind of went lawyers got involved, and other people got involved. So it got messy. But yeah, that's the sort of situation so two kids here, settled, stable work. Both of us have really good jobs here where we are. And we have regular visitation with my kid who is in the UK. And it just happens he has COVID right now. So actually, his flight is delayed, but he should be coming home for Christmas. But yeah, that's I'll throw it back to you. Because yeah, there's so much this story. So many layers to it. I don't want to get anybody super confused. So yeah, no,

Curt Storring

[00:08:11] that's, that's amazing, man. Thank you for going there. And I'm just like, I've got questions about how the hell you navigate that like feeling wise, because I can't imagine like just this pain, I guess. And I want to get into that. But let's dive into the secure attachment without being around because I talked about this a lot. I love the book, The Power of showing up by Dr. Dan Siegel. He talks about the four S's for secure attachment, which are making sure your kids feel safe, seen, soothe, and secure. And how do you do this? If you're not like there with your son, because I've seen some of the stuff you posted? Like I see some of your face times and like you're skateboarding and like all this amazing stuff with him. And how do you navigate that? Like, what can you just walk us through some of the things you do on a day to day basis? And like how that's actually showing up in the real world? Yeah, for

Blue Netherclift

[00:08:59] sure. It's been a sort of gradual process. So straight off the bat, I bought him a and I wouldn't usually do this for a kid so young, but at the age of, I guess four and a half, he was nearly five. By the time when I bought him an iPad. Oh, it wasn't an iPad, the first time it was a tablet. And so bought him a tablet I set him up with like a Gmail gave him an app. It's a family controlled Apple ID. So he has iMessage. So just ways that I could Well it started with me sending it sending him regular pictures and videos of myself just checking in. So hey, buddy, it's raining today. This is what I'm gonna be doing with the day and did it out walking the dog and just, you know, so he knew where I was at what I was doing and sort of feeling like he was a part of my life in that way. So he was up to date with everything going on. So those would be emailed now in quite a while, I guess originally he couldn't read. So what he's doing is relying on his mom and I have to go through his moments, you know, ask her to read the messages out to him. So that was early on. And then daily Skyping it's now FaceTime because he's got an Apple ID. So for the first couple of years, he had his own tablet, but then I bought him an iPad and set him up with the Apple ID, which gave him FaceTime, which means I could navigate where he get at sounds bad say get around his mom. I don't mean it like that, because I always asked her to be in control of the iPad. But I can directly message him and he feels like he's got that direct contact that direct link. And that was really good. So the daily contact is huge. And it sounds weird, and it isn't ideal. But it's just it's a way of being consistent. So there's consistency there. He's hearing from me regularly, I get to be updated by how he's feeling in the day. Now, here's a positive about that you can't avoid like me and you talking right now. I tend to look away when I'm talking cuz I'm kind of my machinations kind of spinning. And I'm, you know, getting the visuals and remembering things. But we're still here, right? We're engaged, you can't avoid it. Whereas you're with your kids on a day to day basis. It's easy just to be feeding them dinner, you're busy, you come home late, you're tired, maybe read them a book, you sit them down, but I'm engaged in him in a way that me and my parents weren't because from a very young age, I'm there I'm attentive, I'm asking him questions. He's not always going to share everything. But he's, you know, there isn't there is an intensity to that conversation, on FaceTime in a way that might not happen in that yeah, in the just the daily day, day to day schedule. So that works really well. other little things I do, like he can read to me, I can read to him, so he couldn't read initially, but I could read him books at bedtime and stuff. So the timing, in some ways works like so I've had to be flexible with work. And sometimes I have to run out of the room and chat to him if I'm in an office working. But yeah, he's sort of going to bed at the time where it's like mid morning here, you know, up to lunchtime. So if I can find a gap, and I've always made sure I can, then I can check in with him at bedtime, which is really nice. Those are those are some sort of immediate things just like that, basically online technology, then it's sending him stuff. It's things like giving him one of my T shirts that the smells of me, not like smells of me after I've taken a run in that T shirt like getting so the point was get nasty, but just that familiar smell, you know. So that's the thing. So you can have that I have a stuffy and those familiar kind of objects, transitional objects, transitional objects being things like a stuffy that's familiar to him that you know, special and makes him remember us because it's the stuff that I gave him or maybe but certain items like that kind of help as well. The T shirt thing. I mean, there's loads of little things, but I think consistency showing up and being very open with my feelings as well. So and there's things that he will do to if he's missing me, his mom in the past has encouraged him to draw a little picture, although he leaned over and grabbed this. I mean, it's a little heartbreaking. But as you can see, that's a picture of him. He's Drew, he drew this picture of him crying, saying I am missing you, hello. And then inside this

[00:12:54] is probably pretty Freudian, but there's like a whole a whole line of steps up to where I am. And then he's at the bottom with a little heart shaped by things like that, like so doing artwork, sending things regularly. And just Yeah, and it's constant. It doesn't end. Like it's constantly thinking outside the box. I just started recording little mp3 files of me reading a story from a kid's book and sending him No, so he can listen to them. Even if he can't get hold of me. He can listen to those. Oh, and then I have an online album. So Google Photo album that he can share and look at. I sent him this is a big one something tangible, a photograph album from our recent trip together. So if we've been, you know, the summer holiday, or do you want for those, I just got to go pro so we can do videos, and I can send him videos of stuff we've done together and feminist friends. So yeah, it's just really being creative and consistent and just keep going. And there's always always finding, you know, new ideas and things like that, like skateboarding, I took up skateboarding. So when I do see him in the UK, we have an activity together. And then on FaceTime, we play skate, which is a game where you know, if you take turns with trying a trick, and if you don't get the trick and the other person does, you get a letter, and the first person who gets the letters, you know, makes the word skate loses. And he loves doing that. It's great. And we have a basement here. So even in the winter, I can go down and do that. You know, so that works really well. We have dance parties, and actually, he will send up he sent a video of him dancing to do he'd like a whole routine. He had this whole routine worked out and it was for his little brother, and then his little brother, I played music and his little brother did a dance video for him and we sent that so things like that because now there's a sibling, you know, we need to that's part of the attach in my mind is that you know him feeling close to the whole family and feeling a part of us, as opposed to I was always worried he's gonna feel left out because you know, I'm getting all this time with Indy. So sometimes he says, I wish I was indie, you know, and that breaks my heart a little bit, but then we just have to rally when he's here and have the most intense and amazing time when we were together. Yeah,

Curt Storring

[00:14:58] man. Those are so many like actually actionable steps. And one thing that I took from that is like, we just take closeness for granted. Like, after all of what you just said, man, like, we just you go through the motions, day by day, and like, how often do you actually connect with your kids? Like, because from what you take it? Yeah, yeah, totally take it for granted from what I'm hearing now. Like, man, you have to go so intentionally about this. And you are which is remarkable, like you are putting in the work man. And to be quite honest, like this is making me like, almost tear up, like, I feel immense grief and sadness for for you and for him. And how do you how do you deal with that? Like, I assume that you probably feel that all the time. So do you feel it daily and sit with it and let it in? Or like, what does that look like for you?

Blue Netherclift

[00:15:46] No, I don't, I don't. And I've asked, you know, asked the psychologist about that, too. And I think it's, the one time I really broke down in tears was before the last appeal. And I think I knew that we were going to lose. And I won't go into that, because I try not to my podcast too, because the whole legal system is it's a real dark hole. And there's a lot of bitter dads out there that have lost out and it's 100%, I understand why they would have those negative feelings. So I try not to go there. But yeah, it was a shitty situation, I didn't have a great time as a dad, I felt for sure. But I just there was something in me, I knew I was gonna lose the second time, the first appeal, it was a big win. Because the second time I saw it fell apart. And I feel like in a way that was my release, I was like, that was my huge release of after two years of light that says I've lost. But what happens is you build resilience. And so you could argue maybe you bury it so deep, you know, it's a wound that you're burying, deep down. And really, you need to let it out all the time. But I don't, I genuinely don't feel like that I sit in a place of very heart centered as a parent, like I'm just I'm right in my heart here. And I know he feels the same, there's a really great book for anybody that spends time apart from their kids for any length of time, called the invisible string. And it's really aimed at little ones. And the whole story is the fact that and in this case, it's the mum, I wish they'd be few more books where the dads sort of center stage. And I'm sure it's changing but or dad or other parents, I should say, but that there is the string attached between the parent and the child. So no matter where that child is, is that that they're still connected, you know, with that love piece. And I read, I bought that. And I read that to him early on. And that was one of the things that professional clinical social worker, had advised me. So I really lean into that. It's like, it's interesting. There's this letting go, that you do, or that I've done, we're in this situation, just letting go as a parent, as opposed to be the hover parent holding on really tight to the to the kid, I've really let go in a way that I'm trusting the process, I'm going to try and I do a little spiritual, but like I'm trusting that the universe is part of there is some reason this is happening. There is something that he has to learn from this and something I have to learn from it. And I really believe that I really believe that. So I have a lot of trust now in a way that maybe I wouldn't if the mom was down the road, or maybe I would be over worrying about what did he get enough snacks today as he like, you know, when he read, you know, whatever it is right? Whatever co parenting issues that come up, and we had a few we were pretty good. But I was definitely I can be missed a health and safety and a bit overzealous because I worked in outdoor education for like 20 years. So I know kids. And so yeah, it's Wow. And I haven't thought about that too much. But I have let go. I've let go. And I trust my spirit and my heart. And I know and had some doubts. I had some doubts. But when he first went to the UK, because we were expecting a baby, I didn't see him for eight months. I think it was a long stretch. And I didn't know what was going to happen. I really didn't. I had like doubt and I think I was feeling a little bit like a washing machine emotionally. But I had this amazing partner new baby, but I just I guess guilt. Even then when we're in the hospital, given birth, he's on Skype, like he's there. Not actually during the delivery, but he was there in the hospital. I had a picture of him. I didn't think about that. I took a big picture of him from his school. I took that with with us to the hospital. So that when I took pictures, I took pictures with the baby with his picture next to just so that he knew that he was with us in our thoughts. And he was very much yeah, sorry, slight. So Well, where was it going with that? So my point being is that after eight months of not seeing him when I had grown, which was a shock, but it was like no time had passed. It was like a media we were like we just held each other and we're right back there. And so that made and I would had already seen the spec the especially the social clinical social worker and worked on this attach these attachment pieces, but I'm talking about and then when after eight months when I saw him I was like wow, yeah, we connected. That string works like you know we got it. We got this We're gonna come through it. And so now it's really hard. It is really hard when you go go time and I get kind of frustrated, the hard thing is the transition, because right now it's fine. I see him every day on Skype print and sorry, FaceTime, pretty much. But the transitions now are the hard pieces. Those are when I get frustrated. And I do have frustrations come up when he is here. And he maybe rolls his eyes at me, or he doesn't listen, or he's being disrespectful in some way. He's actually a really good kid. But he you know, he's an eight year old boy. So those things come up. And when they do, for the first time, actually, there's some I really did get quite angry a couple of times with them. And, you know, I was just kind of kicking myself feeling like, This isn't me. Because I'm pretty grounded. I'm pretty calm. The way that I deal with kids. I'm consistent and patient and all these things. But yeah, I was just like, like, oh, so so it's in there. There's some stuff in there for sure. But you know, buried down, but for the most part, focus, I'm very hard based, as we all are with parents, but I have to be quite, I'm really conscious of that's where I hold him in my heart and trust the process. He's going to be okay, you know, he's going to get a good good education. He'd get a good education here. But you know, he's in a good school. And yeah, he's kind of in a safe community in that sense. I guess his mom loves him, too. You know, she loves him that much there she fought for him. So in the end, you know, it's to parents that really, really love their kid. And so that love hopefully will just help him get through these difficulties. They obviously feeling as a young boy to be taken away from his dad is is tough. It's gotta be tough.

Curt Storring

[00:21:32] Yeah, no, thank you for sharing all that man. This is the thing that I love most so far is just like, it seems like it would be very hopeful for guys in this situation, that there is a way to build that attachment and that you've proven it. It sounds extremely hopeful. Because it can I can only imagine feel hopeless, like everything you want is being taken from you, and you're powerless. And so to have that, like resource, that book, knowing you can talk to people and get the secure attachment. I highly, highly recommend anyone listening who's in this situation actually take action on that. Because it sounds like it's been fantastic for you. I want to talk about your heart centeredness. Like, is this something you've always found? Because I see in working with a lot of guys, it's hard for guys to really access their heart. So is this innate? Is this something you've worked on?

Blue Netherclift

[00:22:17] Oh, that's a good question. not something I've ever been asked. I don't know if I have an answer to that. Other than I've always been sort of very passion based in terms of why do my choices in life, so and spending tons of time in nature is kind of my thing. And so I think what's helped me to answer this, in a roundabout way, is finding things in my life that keep me grounded and centered in a way that leads me into gratitude, as opposed to any other feelings of anger or frustration. And so with that, I would take Yeah, so for example, when I was going through the latest stages of, or maybe we're right, right in it, the legal battle, and the court stuff, I started running is not a thing for me, I ski I climb, I'm active, but I'm not. I've not been like a trainer, I don't go training, and I don't go running up mountains to kind of, you know, be my personal best. But I did start running and spending more time in nature. And that really helped. And I think grounding myself in that way, probably helped me come around to that heart centered sort of way of being like so now I have a morning practice. I call it practice, it sounds really all I'm doing is walking the dog. But I'm very intentional with like, not checking my phone in the morning. Doesn't happen. I'm not perfect. But for the most part, don't touch my phone. I get outside, and I connect to nature and sort of everything around me and I sit in gratitude. And I think that just kind of helps me stay in that in a more positive heart centered place without really being intentional about it.

Curt Storring

[00:23:56] Right. Yeah, that was the next question is like what kind of practices if you got because I call the practices too. And I think you're exactly right. It's all about the intentionality behind that. Are there other things like gratitude? Do you just think about that? Do you write it down? Do you have like, times when you do this? What other things do you use to stay so grounded?

Blue Netherclift

[00:24:13] Well, funny say that, because I've been thinking actually, for New Year. I'm not one for your New Year's resolutions. But you know, it's just a it's a point in the year where it's fairly transitional, I guess. But I, I would like to get a book slide where I kind of write down gratitudes each day in the morning, whether I gather or not, I don't know. But like, yeah, I just think the gratitude piece really helps for me. And then you know what, actually, this is sorry, this is I guess, maybe a tangent but kind of going back the last thought I was having around how do I stay in a heart centered place? The other thing for me is the thoughts. Thought is really powerful, like the power of your thoughts. So what I have focused on, and I just was thinking about this the other day, and I hadn't really put it into thought, but I focus on the feeling I get when I see him. I focus on the excitement of being together. You know, like I'm going to see him in a month. For example, and we're gonna go biking together. And I think about the, how I feel when we're doing that activity together. That's just what I'm thinking about. So I'm always thinking about the horizon, I'm always thinking about, I'm not stuck in right now I tried to be present. But when it's tough, I'm just like, well, hang on, I'm going to see him in three months, and oh, we got we're gonna be together for like, six weeks, we're gonna go camping and all these things. And I just, I kind of like, hold that thought, you know, in me, is like that desire. So what do I desire? And I think about how that thing makes me feel. And then it's, yeah, it's really about like, setting the intention, having, you know, those thoughts of the desire. And those positive feelings and things like I just try and help that kind of drive me forward, as opposed to be stuck in my head with the drama, with the crappy stuff that's going on around me, like I just really talked with him. That's where I have to go, I have to be looking at the horizon all the time, even if the horizon is, you know, what, when he's 16, maybe younger, he's probably going to be here, if not definitely when he's 18. But like, he's going to be making choices and coming back here. And so long term, you know, I say this term to you, I'm like, dude, eventually, you can make the choice to be here. And so why don't we focus on that, like, you know, you're at school, you have friends there, and you've got friends here, and you come back and forth, and you get the best of both worlds in a way. And long term, you can choose to be here. So I kind of sit with that in the factor of like, one amazing life in a way that he has these two worlds. He's got all the history and culture of being close to London, and, you know, all the other things in the UK, which, you know, he's got his mom and her family there, my family is spread out a bit more. She doesn't see them as much. But yeah, and then he gets to be here in the holidays. I mean, he's got a really interesting upbringing. And he could go in so many directions when he's older. So yeah, big picture stuff is kind of what I'm kind of rambling a bit, but it's just the big picture stuff that helps me sort of keep me grounded and stuff, which brings it back to the gratitude. I'm grateful that he's in a safe place. And he's in, you know, in a good school and getting a good education. I'm grateful. He's got good friends, I'm grateful for my love with my wife. I'm grateful for my youngest. I'm grateful, really grateful for where we live, which is an amazing place, given the pandemic, you know, we live pretty remote, in a really nice town full of other families. So there's so many things to be grateful for, for that. So I'm always focusing really on that. And that does really help. So daily practice. Other than that, I have really great intentions, really great intentions to meditate. And I am trying, I've just hired by actually making a conscious effort, not having a ton of success. But I think it's a practice that I will keep up my wife is much better at it than me. So I'm trying to figure that out. But otherwise, I have started exercising more regularly, again, climbing wall in the basement, and just doing 20 minutes even of just just simple exercises to warm up a few sort of lightweights and things like that. But just things to get the blood pumping, I find really helps shutting off the phone in the morning as well having I think actually, a morning routine is key for me to make the rest of the day go really smoothly. And so we're It's hard with a young child. But I do find if I can just get out with the dog. And for 1020 for 20 minutes, let's say and have some silence, but also have an audio book I've been listening to on and off. So that's a good thing too. And that really helps. So those are probably the most basic things, gratitude, some quiet time in the morning, some exercise some point in the day, and if I don't get that, and sometimes I don't because I'm stuck at the computer and I'm not making time. And I know I could make time then I don't feel as given a day. So some exercise and some quiet time. I probably couple of key things. That was a bit of a ramble down a bit.

Curt Storring

[00:28:46] Yeah, I want you to keep going, Man, this is super interesting. And you're speaking my language. Like I do things in the morning to ensure that my day goes smoothly, and I wake up extra early to be sure that I can get that time. Because if I'm not up at five or you know before, then I think

Blue Netherclift

[00:29:00] that's what you need to do. Yeah,

Curt Storring

[00:29:02] yeah, yeah, I'm gonna get that,

Blue Netherclift

[00:29:05] for sure. And I you know, I think if I did five o'clock now, I could probably pull it off. Maybe he's up at like, 535 40. So it's, it's tight in the morning. I could do it at five. You're right. But actually, I am just because my I wasn't gonna set but I think I works. Because why not really. I think part of like, over the last couple years too, I've gradually and it's more this year, become more I've always been spiritual, not religious. So I believe there's something greater out there and you know, bigger in the universe that I don't understand and all these things, but I've never really brought it into anything sort of tangible. But I've been finding it really interesting to sort of. So this morning, for example, is listening to an audio book about shamanic dreaming, Robert Moss, it's super interesting. So I'm kind of found myself leaning more into the sort of some of the spiritual YouTubes and podcasts and things like YouTube channels and podcasts and things because I'm Yeah, just to kind of understand what the hell is the meaning of all this key, you know, like I was doing everything is right. As a dad, I would say, you know, there was no drugs. There's no drinking, there wasn't any cheating or that, you know, I was doing everything right. I had a stable job. But yeah, I just got anyway, as a dad, I felt like I was doing everything right. I was doing the nurturing, but I was trying to money too. And so as I was kind of being pulled in the nurturing kind of direction, I was being pulled in the other direction of like, donor money, be the breadwinner. And yeah, I just thought I was doing everything right. So I was like, that's the one piece I get confused. I'm like, that doesn't make sense. I thought that was what I was meant to do. Like, what is my role as a dad? And so that's where I've been, yeah, really interested to lean into the spiritual, spiritual aspects a little bit, you know, so reading some more sort of slightly mind altering books, about, you know, like dreams, the one this morning was about dreams and how we relate to our dreams and stuff. So yeah, so that's the one thing I would say is a benefit, not benefit. It's not a benefit that my kids far away. But I guess, like a positive outcome would be Yeah, I'm kind of getting more in touch, you know, with myself on a deeper level. And it's not not for survival, just really out of interest. You know, I like growing. That's what I've realized. As a dad, I like growth. And the growth I include skateboarding. Too many people say I'm too old to skateboard rubbish. You don't have to be doing anything epic on a skateboard. But like it could be that could be meditation. I just love learning and growth. And I think that as a parent for me is that's part of my parenting is me continuing to grow and learn new things, whether it be spiritual stuff, skateboarding, I got a downhill mountain bike, which I've never done before. So started that this year. I'm like, Bring it on. Like, I love that part of being a parent.

Curt Storring

[00:31:45] Yeah. And that's such an important point, because we talk about like, the emotional growth, the mental health growth on this podcast, a lot, a little bit of the spiritual growth. But just like having that growth mindset that you can learn anything you can get over any obstacle. I have seen. Some people just get in this like, Okay, I've got kids now, like, inertia just takes over. And you don't do anything new. You like lose contact with your spouse. And suddenly, 20 years later, they moved out and you're like, what, what is my life even? Like, don't forget your life in this all and one of the greatest things that I like to tell guys. It's like, yeah, it's for your kids. All this work we do as far kids like, I was triggered by my kids so much when they were young, that like, I needed to become a better dad cuz I was so terrible. And like, now my life is better. I hated feeling like garbage. And now I feel great. And now I do cool stuff. And I learned all the time. So don't forget yourself in all of this dad's like, it's not selfish to do self care itself less when you got a family. Because imagine you show up with like an empty cup. Oh, like what a brutal person you must be to be around if you don't do anything for yourself. I was gonna ask you about like, Have you ever done breath work before?

Blue Netherclift

[00:32:51] Bunnies say that? Might we were randomly watching Aubrey someone on the circus. Yeah, that's kind of like we don't really what we kind of pick and choose are on television. It's YouTube. That's what we that's we work. So we just kind of so we found this one. He was talking to this. I think Kiwi couple about breathwork. And my wife has some experience with it. And even not very long ago, actually, she was in a bit of a funk. I think just early pregnancy. You know, it's tough, right? She's super tired. We can't go and do a lot of the activities. She feel sick. So she did some breath work. And it really shifted things for her. And so I'm interested look into it.

Curt Storring

[00:33:34] Base. Okay, well, man, if you ever want to explore that I am a breathwork facilitator, I would love to guide you through that if it's interest area. That has been one of the things on my sort of so called spiritual journey. That's really sort of helped me figure things out. And I'd love to sort of know more about that. Just maybe briefly, I don't know I've got some some more questions. But this sort of piqued my interest to spirituality piece because I as well have been for a long time, like just not even spiritual at all. Like, that's stupid. Why would you need like, I always thought people who were spiritual especially religious, were like, too scared to face death. Like come on, you're just gonna die and everyone's gonna die. Like get over it man. Like don't be so weak. And I have been realizing that like there's so much more that we are connected to, whether it's God whether it's the universe, whether it's spirit, when you can tap into things like the breath like intention like nature for me has been a huge one. Just like allowing Mother Earth if you will to hold many of my my sorrows, my demons and just like really leaning into just making it intentional to like I touch trees when we go on walks like I'll just put my hand on a tree and breathed that tree and, and that spiritual to me. So like, what else? Where have you gone on this journey? Is it like brand new? How do you see spirituality and like, what is it doing for you as a dad?

Blue Netherclift

[00:34:54] Ooh, ooh, good one. Like Well, I could go deep or I He keep it on the shallow.

Curt Storring

[00:35:01] Let's go deep actually, let's go wherever you want to go, but bring it man.

Blue Netherclift

[00:35:05] Interesting. So what I'm going to go, let's go start with the podcast a little bit, because I realized I had overcome a huge challenge where so many dads that I hear about, you know, they kind of drift, or they give up because the courts not being favorable to them. And I realized that I was like, You know what, I got to turn everything I've experiencing into like, a positive. So by sharing my experiences, so hence the podcast, Dad Without Borders, I realized I was doing a podcast for work. And I realized how easy it was pretty much to do it, I had to learn, you know, definitely, it was a process to learn, and come up with the tools. But I managed, it was very easy, really. Podcast starts. And yeah, I'm feeling more driven by this purpose. And then I shared this on a podcast recently, actually. But then I ended up in just fun to share, I guess, there's Netflix show called Surviving death, I watched that. And then the next day, there was a workshop I was running. And it was Lady in it, who says, I'm a psychic medium. And I was like, No, your psychic medium. Here she was in my workshop that I'm running. And I just got really taken in by the idea of having a psychic reading. And so two weeks later, I couldn't resist. And so I had, I ended up setting up the psychic reading, which was about an hour long, and just blew my mind. Now you don't have to be spiritual or whatever to believe in it. Or you know, for some people, it might be kind of crazy, or you know, maybe just a bit of fun, but I actually got really into it. And I was like, wow, there is I just felt that I was tapping into something that I wanted to find out more about, I guess. So it's the psychic reading that sort of led me on this journey of really understanding in a way to that, you know, your son's meant to be where he is right now. And you're meant to be where you are right now. And this is just part of the tapestry of life. And the learning that you've got to do. And your time right now, on Earth. You know, I don't know what comes next, you know, I've got some ideas. But it was really interesting to have a psychic reader. And in a way, it was like a life coach. And it was what was incredible was I was quite scared by the idea. But I was really curious. And I do like to look at life in that way of being curious. I don't know everything. And there's always something else to learn. And somebody like that comes along, who's also an elder, I would say I would see as an elder, you know, she's hopefully, in a 60s. Of you're not aging out there. But yeah, it was like, you know, I just want to I want to learn about what you're doing and what the psychic readings are. And it actually had a huge energy shift. For me, I was in a bit of a funk, it was COVID. And still is COVID. We can't get away from it, it seems. And so there was there was a delay in me seeing my boy, it's happened a couple times where we haven't been able to see each other. And so that was kind of getting tiring. For me, I was pretty exhausted by that. The job I was in at the time, great job, tons of flexibility. But I knew it wasn't my path. I knew it wasn't my thing that I should be doing long term. And I didn't know what to do about it. So I went to the psychic reader and I would that energy shift and her kind of I won't go too into the detail of the reading. But, you know, I could just kind of see a different way. And I could and I started to just be open to thinking, well, maybe this is just part of his learning and his growth. And you know, this is going to create him to be the, you know, the adult, the man that he's going to be to be gender specific. But you know, that seems to be the way things going.

[00:38:48] But yeah, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, just like it's gonna make him the person he's going to become. And so with that, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could go on and on about the spiritual stuff, because it is I've had, I've had like, three other readings since then, as well, which have, you know, equally been as fascinating and mind expanding in a way, but bringing it back to the fatherhood stuff. Yeah, it's just kind of understanding that there is a big picture. Every kid has a gift. I can't control everything that happens to my kid now this I have to trust the process. And so that's been the biggest piece coming back from me from the psychic reading is like, trust the process, you know, there is a reason that all these things are happening in sometimes if you really think about it, you can look back and and realized that actually certain things and certain people in your life had to come into your life for you to get where you are now. Hopefully for that's a positive thing. But yeah, so as a bit of a ramble, but it's so yeah, it's also new to me this year of diving into this stuff and the meditation and, you know, the idea of there being something bigger that we don't know, and I've really Yeah, I just want to you know, whether it be learning about dream stuff, which is the book I was reading right now this morning, about you know how we interact with our dreams. Yeah, I just think it's really fascinating and fun. And I think, yeah, kind of that kind of growth helps me again, just get through every day that he's away.

Curt Storring

[00:40:09] Yeah, man, that's powerful stuff. And like, this whole thing for me has been about surrender in many ways. Just like surrendering to I don't have control over my own life over, especially for the lives of my kids. One thing I realized is like, I want to be controlling, because I have this like outcome that I want them to get. And not that like, I want them to be a doctor, I just like I really want them to be able to, like, love openly, I want them to be resilient, I want them to be hard working, I want them to, like live the life they want. And when I screw up, I'm like, oh, no, like, here's a word they're gonna have to deal with. And then remember, like, I had all these wounds, I had, like a much more challenging childhood My children have. And I got through it, like everyone alive today was once a child who has gone through their stuff to some degree or another. So I have to surrender. And the spiritual thing has also allowed me to believe that like, we're all connected, like we are just like, I don't know, I see it sometimes as like beams of light. We're all these beams of light emanating from this source. There are very real other sort of states of states of consciousness. In dreaming, there are some cultures who like put as much emphasis on dreaming as the waking world, because it's just two sides of the same coin, psychedelics, breathwork, all of these things give you an insight in the fact that, like, there's another way to experience reality, you know, and that's kind of scary. Because like, What if you fall into one you can ever get out? I sometimes think about that. But that's, that's terrifying. Neither here nor there. But it does allow me to feel connected. You know, I'm just like, one.on this planet, same as everyone else. And instead of feeling lonely, I just feel like way more connected to humans. So yeah, thanks for going there, man.

Blue Netherclift

[00:41:47] I mean, the invisible the invisible string that book in a way, you know, brings me back to that on a, on a deeper level. Now I look at that. And I'm like, Yeah, we are actually connected. You know, I really feel that. Yeah, no, it's interesting. Yeah. Well, you know, I'll go there right now. Because maybe that's your audience. I don't really know who your audience is, you know, just even the other day I had another reading, which was a whole other it was a different different reader, I guess you could say or SEER, or, you know, whatever. Really incredible. Like, just, yeah, huge, huge. It was just the stuff that was coming out. But one of the things came up came out. And you can take this with a grain of salt, depending on who you are and what you believe. But you know, one thing that came out was like, you know, you're a healer, and you should do some shamanic journeying work. And so within two days, her friend who's this much older guy, who's like, you know, late 70s, came over to my house and was like, Yeah, let's talk about this. And so that's something I'm talking about doing with him in the new year, is doing a couple of long sessions, to learn about shamanic journeying. Because, again, why not, like, if that's gonna fall it, if that's gonna fall on my lap like that. And this person within two days is going to be in my house. I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. Okay, this is fun. If it involves dream work, I've always dreamed a lot. So that sounds Yeah, like something I want to explore. Hence, the book I was listening to this morning as I was going for a walk in the woods. So yeah, I love it. I love all that connection. And I, you know, what I've gained as I've got older, because I'm an older Dad, I'm in my 40s. It just being open to everything, like really being open to everything. And just yeah, just not shutting down shutting down these ideas that probably a few years ago, I would have.

Curt Storring

[00:43:28] Yeah, yeah. And just to anybody listening who's like, you know, healing work and spirituality and stuff, like just just chill, keep listening, okay, like your work in this, if this is triggering to you, is to ask why. And then to get curious, and it could simply be that you think it's stupid, and then like, you're never gonna listen again. And that's fine. I don't want you to listen, if that's you. On the other hand, like maybe there's a block there. And I always say this men's work, Aaron men's group, like the process is whatever you take of it. So whatever your judgments are right now, like that's your process, look into that positive or negative, whatever they are, and do some work around that whatever that looks like. I want to ask you about the difference between becoming a dad the first time and you've now got a third on the way? Has there been like a big shift in how you prepare? Are you a different person as a dad? What does that look like?

Blue Netherclift

[00:44:13] Dude, it's huge. I mean, I could with the second child coming, I could then step back a bit, and see my wife work through it all in the way that I kind of did in a different way. She's my mom, dad, like, there's definitely some differences in how you know, she's going, you know, through childbirth and breastfeeding and all the rest of it, but there was still that shift. I saw her going through and she she would say this openly, which is why I'm okay saying sharing it. But yeah, it was just the first time I was on eggshells. I was like working overtime to like, soothe my kid, like wouldn't want him to cry out a tool. So I was like, just like soon as I hear him still I'd sprint across the cabin that we lived in to like, soothe him in some way. I was up probably trying to get over involved in the nurturing of the child at the time. So just really wanted to be involved in the sleeping routines and things, just overthinking everything, overthinking everything, it was a big, big deal. So the second one comes along, I feel much calmer, I felt much more, I find it much easier to be in that supportive role. I found that I was more trusting, which comes back a lot for my parenting is the trust that I have in the process. But yeah, he misses a nap, he's gonna be okay. Now, if she was the other way around, and she was the one being really laid back, I'd probably be naturally the one that was a bit more on edge. But, you know, it worked out the way that I was kind of the rock. I was like, no, no, trust the process. I've been through this before. And, yeah, and probably and also stepping back and giving her more space as the mum to figure things out in the way that she wanted to. Because they can be about OCD. And I can be a bit you know, don't have a condition by the way. But you know, I can be a bit OCD. So yeah, so giving them a bit more space, I think to figure things out, which I didn't the first time so much. I really wanted to be in there all the time. And we kept clashing over sleeping routines and patterns and things. And when we did it this time, if we have a clash, I just back off, so I ended up maybe sometimes backing off too much in a way. Third ones coming along. I'm not even thinking about the person. All right, though, got two that are alive. I think it's the Yeah, it's really different. I and you know what, the first time around, too. I was like, Who the hell am I? Who am I? Now? I've been living in the back of a van climbing. I've been running my own tour guide company, and so on. Like, I was just kind of free spirit ready in a way Seasonal Worker, classic part of the world. Yeah, but yeah, so that was so then the kid comes along. And I'm like, Oh, who I didn't want to be, you know, I got great parents. But I didn't want to be my dad. I didn't want to be that we're not workaholic. But you know, that kind of old school kind of parent. That's the breadwinner. You don't see him much when you do is at the weekends. He's cutting the lawn, washing the car. I wanted to be right in there engaged. And so for me, it was yeah, it was really that push and pull between the nurturing kind of dad and the old school breadwinner, Dad and I didn't know how to reconcile the two, actually. And that was a big. And then when I was co parenting when the mom left, we were not getting on and you know, eventually she left. And yeah, I was like, Okay, this is me. I'm a single parent, it's on like, so that just define me. You know, all I was doing was working and then being a dad. And when I didn't have him, I was generally working because I made sure that when I had him in the week, that was the time I had off work. So I was just that was me. I was just me and my kid, pretty much. I'm finding it hard to reach out to other dads and not knowing how

Curt Storring

[00:47:45] as well. Right. Have you got better at than who?

Blue Netherclift

[00:47:48] Yes. Because, yes, cuz I have a podcast.

Curt Storring

[00:47:52] Right? That's my honest, that's me too. Yeah,

Blue Netherclift

[00:47:54] honestly. So the short answer is no. And I'm super social, like I love you know, I love this. Like if you were living down the road, and you were like, Let's go grab a coffee. Yeah. 100%. But in terms of reaching out to find support, and I'm also naturally a bit of a lone wolf. So for me to re Energize. I need time on my own in nature or, you know, skiing, climbing doing something. But yeah, I'll do like my time alone. So it's for me, it's hard to find the time to find support. Unless options available. I think it's getting better. I think there's more dad groups now. There are in this local area. But still my choice is it to sit in front in a circle and talk about my feelings? No, I'd rather do it one on one to be honest. But dads aren't as good at being receptive to that. I find. Tell them let's go skateboarding or let's go skiing. Yeah, sure. What time tomorrow? Tell them Can we go and talk about our feelings down by the river? Probably not gonna make time for it.

Curt Storring

[00:48:51] You gotta sell it a little bit better than that. I know. Right. That's nice.

Blue Netherclift

[00:48:56] Yeah, down by the river. Come

Curt Storring

[00:48:57] on. Yeah, me too. Hey, yeah, I was talking to David, on this podcast recently, David Stegman, who I think probably lives up in your neck of the woods. And one of the things he said was that all men crave deep connection, closeness vulnerability. And yet, it's simply because they they don't do it simply because nobody ever offers them an invitation. So we all crave this deep connection, but there's no invitation for men. And I one of the things he said which was like, kind of like mind blowing to me was like, if you just go do what you said, which is like, hang out, do sports, that kind of thing. You could just start the conversation with like, five minutes to be like, Hey, man, how are you doing? What's real for you right now? You want to just take like five minutes to check in? And just having that and then go do your thing. It's rather than like, oh, let's go by the river. We can hold hands like you know, all that kind of stuff. It's it's opening that door maybe for conversations while you're still doing other things. So I know that if you've been listening the podcast, you heard that already. But I just thought that was like such a cool idea to almost like hack in ways to do that. Yeah. And

Blue Netherclift

[00:49:55] 100% I talked to a psychologist about this and it's like this. You know, it's a male psychology thing. Yeah, we'll talk when we're rubbing shoulders doing something chopping wood, or you know, sitting on the ski lift and things like that. But actually like sitting down having that face to face, it's a little bit too open for us in a way. And you know, it's like, it's almost like and this has come up in my podcast, dealing with teenagers, driving them in a car when they're looking straightforward. They don't have to be engaged looking straight at you in that way is, is they feel safer for them. I think with dads I find on the skin track when you're hiking up a mountain with skis is what I mean by skin track. Yeah, I've had some of the best conversations, but because again, you're not facing me. It's like it's kind of, you know, you're just kind of rubbing shoulder to shoulder and it seems to be more comfortable thing. The skatepark can be good. I do do that in the skate park. Because when I know a dad, and I do know, dad, who's had a baby recently, I was at last year, I forget. But anyway, I made a point of reaching out, and he's a skater. So occasionally we'd go to the skate park. And yeah, we'll just check in even if it's him going, man, it is intense. It is crazy. But just for him to hear someone like me say, yep, been there. I mean, the second round of that, and I totally hear what, you know. I can empathize. Like, I know, I know. I know the fields. So that's why join D. So I think yeah, I agree with that, like, find the activity and make sure you open the door to that conversation even a little bit. Because you open a crack. And generally, you know, they beat the door, you know, they push that door wide open.

Curt Storring

[00:51:26] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like, I made a decision when I joined my first men's group a few years ago, like, I'm just going to go all out, like, I've been doing this work by myself for like five or six years now. And I just want this so badly that I don't give a shit. You know, like, come at me, you think I'm a loser? You think I'm too open? Like, I don't care. And so I did that. And it was amazing how people responded. It's like, Oh, what a relief. Like, let's go deep now. Okay, thank goodness. And it does, like, give them permission. And you know, some guys are ready for that. And that's cool, because we've got a long history of telling men that they're weak for having feelings. We're working on that day by day, but I love what you did, which is just like extending Hey, dude, how you doing? Okay, yeah, I totally get that I empathize. And sometimes that's all we need. It's like, Oh, thank God, we're not alone. So that's the point.

Blue Netherclift

[00:52:12] I bring that back to being a dad to with the kid and my relationship with him. I'm very open about my feelings in terms of dude, I'm, I recognize that I was feeling really angry, right, then I'm really sorry about that. But the reason I'm feeling that is because I feel hurt right now, that this is the you know, just very open in that way and talking things through, so that he knows, and I'm not like, I'm someone who will tear up, like a Disney movie, or an even an advert, you know, an advert for the Olympics, when they show some sort of, like, moving moment. And like, I'm that guy that like, be I'll be kind of wiping the tears way. But I'm not a crier. As such, I can feel emotional, but I'm open choir. So I'm very conscious to show that emotion to my son too, in a way that as he's growing up, he understands that it is okay to be open and, and sensitive. And it's okay to be sensitive. And, you know, and he, he gets like that, like, you know, he is a very sensitive kid. And so I'm trying to encourage that. So he doesn't build a shield, because he's been taken away, you know, and I try always, I never want to throw them under the bus. She did what she thought was best for her. And I get that. But in that process, of course, I don't want him to build that shield. I wanted him to keep open, and to like, lean into the emotions in a way that when he's a dad, himself, maybe or maybe he just isn't a dad, but certainly when he's an adult, he can support people around him no matter what gender to Yeah, to be that to be that way. Because I think it is so important that we are we go through so much these days. This life's not easy, not been easy with this pandemic. So it's like, Don't shield it like, dude, if you feel emotional, like he did the other day, he has COVID his flights now delayed. He's still gonna get here for Christmas. But initially, man, he was about to lose it. And I was like, Dude, it's cool. Like, you know, it's hard, but you want you want to support that emotion. And I have cried in front of him. He kind of broke down once, the day before he was going to leave after his summer trip here a couple years ago, and he could feel my voice breaking because I was really overcome with like, the fact that he was breaking down and it was so sad. Oh, man, tough next day driving him to the airport and flying back to the UK to not see him for months. So it's I had that moment and he grew up he goes and reaches my sunglasses to pull them off to see me crying. He's like, as if like, man, it's okay to cry kind of thing is that's how I yeah, that's how I sort of read that situation. And I was like, yeah, it's it's a sad thing, buddy, but and it's okay to have those emotions. But yeah,

Curt Storring

[00:54:46] this has been a ton of fun and I I wish we had hours and hours because I want to talk about living in a cabin. I want to talk to you about deleting Facebook because I heard you say something about that. I want to talk to you about like CO regulating with with young kids. And we're at the top of the hour now so I'm gonna let you go but Blue where can people find more about you, Dad Without Borders and all that kind of stuff.

Blue Netherclift

[00:55:04] So yeah, my main outlet is Dad Without Borders. So dadwithoutborders.com is the site, you can find it on Apple and all the main Apple, Spotify, all those places. I'm most active on Instagram, I'd quite enjoy Instagram for sharing stories and little short clips and feelings and you know that kind of stuff. So that again is Dad Without Borders. You can find us on Instagram too. But yeah, check it out. It's a good show. But yeah, it's it's really an opportunity for me to share as much as I can often through conversation, but with other dads, but yeah, like my experience being a long distance parent and showing that you can do it if even if you're a worker working on the oil rigs. A forestry worker working away from home. If you're you know, there's so many different situations. It could be moms too. But yeah, that's really that's sort of the inspiration from it is like, overcoming that long distance piece and maintaining a really strong bond with your family.

Curt Storring

[00:56:04] Yeah, I'm inspired by you and I got my three kids who come home after school every day. So yeah, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and so deeply man this has been a pleasure.

Blue Netherclift

[00:56:12] Yeah, always a pleasure man to talk about all these parenting journeys no great

Curt Storring

[00:56:24] that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. It means the world to find out more about everything that we talked about in the episode today, including Show Notes resources and links to subscribe leave review work with us go to dad.work/pod. That's DAD.WORK/POD. type that into your browser just like a normal URL, dad.work/pod. To find everything there you need to become a better man, a better partner and a better father. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai