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Today’s guest is Bryan Pue.
We go deep today talking about:
- Our role as parents in helping to build our childrens’ identity
- Shame and letting it go of the power of your life
- Affirming our sons and maintaining influence
- Instilling vision and purpose in our kids
- Family leadership and modeling what a good man is
- Being a teammate with your wife
- The importance of weekly meetings and dates and how to genuinely connect with your wife
- How to talk to your kids about sex
Bryan is a husband to Bonnie, dad to their six boys, and is the Co-founder of The Union Movement. Bryan and Bonnie started The Union Movement ministry in 2018 with the focus to help people, churches, and Christian leaders find wholeness in the realms of sexuality, identity and relationships. The heart of The Union is to provide transformative teaching, and resources, that give a biblical perspective and equips the body of Christ in its calling to be salt and light to the world they are engaged in.
Find Bryan online at:
Podcast: The Union Podcast
Unknown Speaker 0:00
If you are the foundation of your family, you are the firm footing. They build their lives on. You carry a glorious burden and you never dream of laying it down. You carry it with joy and gratitude. You show up, even when you don't feel like it. You lead, serve, love and protect. You are a father. This is the Dad.Work podcast where men are forged into elite husbands and fathers by learning what it takes to become harder to kill, easier to love and equipped to lead. Get ready to start building the only legacy that truly matters. Your family
Curt Storring 0:59
welcome to the data work podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of dad work. I am joined today by Brian Pugh, who I actually had the privilege of hearing on Sunday, give a guest sermon at my church and I was like, do your local? Why don't we connect for podcast because what he was dropping was straight fire. And I loved it. And I think this is gonna be really useful to you guys as dads, because we talked about identity shame, family leadership and how to talk to kids about sex. This is a very important topic that doesn't get enough airtime in my opinion. And, you know, we need to be the leaders in this area for kids life. So Brian is a husband to Barney, dad to their six boys, and is the co founder of the union movement. Brian and Barney started the union movement ministry in 2018. With the focus to help people churches and Christian leaders find wholeness in the realms of sexuality, identity and relationships. The heart of the union is to provide transformative teaching and resources to give a biblical perspective and equips the body of Christ and it's calling to be salt and light to the world they are engaged in. You can find them online on Instagram, at the union movement, or on the website, the union movement.com. They've also got the union podcast if you want to listen to their podcast. So as I mentioned, some of the things we talked about in this episode are our role as parents and helping build our children's identity, shame and how to let go of the power it has over your life, affirming our sons and maintaining influence in their lives, instilling vision and purpose in our kids, family leadership and modeling what a good man is, being a teammate with your wife, the importance of weekly meetings and dates, and how to genuinely connect with your wife, and how to talk to your kids about sex guys, you're gonna love this episode, before we dive in there, if you've been getting anything from the data or podcast, make sure you leave a review, we got a little gentleman's agreement, I can't see where you're going to do it. So I'm gonna have to just rely on your word as a man that you're going to leave a review here. And if you do that, I'm just gonna keep putting the podcast out for free, no strings attached. So I will keep working. If you leave a review. Let's go. And finally, the last thing if you want to become an elite man, husband, father, in 10 days, 10 days, anyone can do anything for 10 days, join the challenge, the elite dad challenge by dad work, go to the website Dad.Work slash challenge and sign up today. It'll be in your inbox immediately. That's only if you want to become elite Dad.Work slash challenge anyway. All that being said, time for this episode of the data. We're podcast with Brian Pugh. Let's go. Welcome back for another episode of the data world podcast. And guys, I'm pumped up today because I actually saw Brian speak live. And this is like a local connection. This is what I've been praying for. So Brian, man, thank you so much for being on here. And I just want to dive into, like who you are and why you do what you do. You want to give us like just the 30,000 foot view of everything you guys are working on?
Bryan Pue 3:38
Absolutely, yeah. So in 2018, my wife and I started an organization called the union. And I feel like I'm kind of like a band member wearing his own band t shirt. You know what I mean? In the video, at least, like, maybe not watching the video, I got one of our union sweaters on but we started the union, really just with the sensing the call that there needed to be more of focus within our day within the church and helping people find wholeness in sexuality, identity and relationships with a real Gospel centered and holistic approach. And so that's that's what we did. And that's what we've been doing as we've been growing. And really, really our heart is to help the individual church leader churches just be thriving in the beauty of God's design for sexuality and identity and, and really just seen any, you know, any design that he has as a good a good thing because sometimes we can get the command twisted that when God puts a boundary around something, it's to ruin our fun. And it's actually it's more so because God loves us, and He knows us better than we know ourselves and he doesn't want us to be destroyed. And so that's just what we're committed to. We're committed to to people encountering the reality of Jesus as it pertains to sexuality and identity and relationships. So
Curt Storring 4:55
that's so good. And the thing like if you guys are listening, you're like, Okay, what does this have to do with parenting? Well, here's the thing. Yeah, I think that dads really need to understand what is going on out there, and why it's so important, and how we can build our children up in that. And I really liked what you said about the boundaries thing there because I remember you were talking about, I can't remember what it was. But it's like if you put something in the wrong context, if you brought something in the middle of your, your living room, what was that analogy? Yeah,
Bryan Pue 5:20
it's actually an analogy I stole from a friend of mine who's kind of a mentor in our life. His name's Jim Anderson. But he uses this analogy is like, fire if he's gonna compare sexuality to fire, fire belongs in the fireplace, you know what I mean? And it's like, our culture says, Hey, do fire wherever you want, you know, start a fire, you know, here, there and everywhere. And it's like, well, if I showed up at your house, and was like, Hey, I was thinking, you know, it's pretty cold outside, we should start a fire and you're like, Yeah, that sounds great. It's like, Yeah, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna start it right on the living room floor, you're gonna be like, Dude, get the heck out of my house, you know what I mean? Like, but when there's when it's when the fire started kind of within the the safety and the security and permanence and commitment. The marriage is sexuality is, is beautiful, you know, between one man one woman before God, like it's a beautiful reality, and it's, it's life giving. So, yeah, I feel like we're kind of like, we can be a voice of authority on parenting the sexuality because my wife and I, we have six boys been married for 15 years. And so when, as I said, I was recently on a trip to Kenya. And just to rattle some of these young men that I was speaking to at a boys school, I said, Listen, we didn't get six kids through prayer and fasting, you know? Just kind of balloon back a little bit. But, you know, like we've had, we've had to navigate this. And parenting, you know, is not it's not easy to begin with. But all the moreso parenting in this time is not easy. So we're just excited to serve parents the best we can.
Curt Storring 6:52
And how old are your boys?
Bryan Pue 6:54
Well, the oldest are 14 Get twin boys that are 14, and they have a 12 year old, 10 year old eight year old and two year old who showed up right in the middle of COVID. So that was,
Curt Storring 7:03
yeah, that was that was the same. Our youngest was born. Just like the month before the whole COVID thing went off. So that was a fun way to bring them in the world. And we've got another word for shoe in like four weeks. So we're
Bryan Pue 7:14
Oh, come on, man. Yeah, that's awesome. I love it.
Curt Storring 7:17
Yeah, dude. So I want to sort of get into like, I think that like, the word that's coming to me is like this identity piece. And this is for sure. A podcast, I'm gonna get cancelled on it. I'm super proud of that. But let's, let's go into that whole identity piece. Because this is where we see so much struggle. And I think as a parent, it's important to realize that like, I don't want to see my kid struggle with his identity. And yet, it's being like really pushed today where it's like, Oh, dude, if you don't know who you are, you could be anything. You can be whatever you want. And often, it's so damaging what ends up happening in searching for that identity outside of who you're supposed to be. So can you maybe in this, like, set the stage for what you're seeing be the issues that the children of parents who we're talking to, are coming up against maybe how to navigate some of that with conversations, what the kids feeling what the world seeing, you want to just maybe kick us off?
Bryan Pue 8:12
Oh, yeah, it's hard to just kind of see it as just one thing, because I feel like there's so many different things over culture over decades of kind of transformation within society. It's hard to kind of nail it down to just be one thing. But I will say one thing that really stood out to Barney and I and and really started to shape some of the decisions that we made, even in homeschooling our kids and just the type of parents that we were going to be I don't know, just trend we were seeing that young people were becoming more and more more and more like, socially conditioned to care more about what their friends thought than their their Yeah, that's the word I was looking for a peer orientated, they became peer orientated, where they care more about the the Facebook likes, the Instagram likes, what their friends think more than they care about the hierarchy. orientation in the sense of that they care less about what their guardians are, the parents think about their life, they care less about what authorities think in their life and more about that, that kind of horizontal peer orientation. And that's just that's just really damaging. You know what I mean? Like young people are not meant to live according to the approval of your friends. You know what I mean? It's just like, I, I think back about, you know, my high school experience, and I go, the things that I thought were important, you know, I mean, obviously, I didn't know the Lord. And there's a lot of other things that play into that. But like, I was just so consumed with the approval of my friends, and then you get through high school and you realize none of that mattered. Like, but like some of that identity comes from being in close proximity with healthy, healthy authority, and that's why God sets children in families. One man One woman, ideally understand that, you know, there's a lot of things that play into broken families and everything. But that's meant to be the thriving place where parents establish that safety, that identity that value, you know, and but we were just seeing that, you know, so much young people were just being lured away by social media, or just by the movement of the time to care more about what each other thinks of each other. And that's just the blind leading the blind. So,
Curt Storring 10:29
yeah, and what kind of things? Are you guys seeing that that leads to right? Because you get untethered from this more mature generation? Who's got your best interests in mind? Who can help you go on the path you need to go on? Yeah, you start looking sort of sideways. But like, what are we what are you guys seeing? That's actually the problem here? Because it would be one thing if you're like, Oh, well, whatever, you know, kids will be kids and they'll grow out of it. Yeah, they're making some decisions that are like really life shattering.
Bryan Pue 10:54
Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, I think I think the stats are very clear. It's like anxiety, confusion, apprehension, fear, like, nobody's taking risks anymore. Like nobody's getting the driver's license, nobody's, you know, doing things like that. And maybe some of those are like, you know, they want to have just a different trance. What am I trying to say here, they have a different viewpoint on like, taking care of the environment, they want to use, you know, transport and everything like that, like city transport, municipal transport versus having their own vehicle. Sure. But it's just like, nobody really wants to grow up. You know what I mean? Nobody really like we're kind of stuck in the, you know, the Neverland Peter Pan syndrome, where he's just you don't want to grow up, you just want to stay a lost boy. And I think specifically in young men, and I think, you know, some of what I heard Jordan Peterson talk about on this as he kind of makes a correlation to this is like, where there is that kind of refusal, refusal to grow up, young men specifically suffer in a way that they they stay a loss boy, and they keep pursuing Tinkerbell, which is kind of like the, the pornographic fairy, you know what I mean? And I think about how many young men are just stuck in a fantasy land of pornography, video games, and, and are just never really walking out to be men of integrity, men of impact and leaders. And, and I think that's, that's just what I'm seeing. And I think, I think the stats would show that, you know, like, we've never been more porn saturated than, than the time that we're living in right now. So,
Curt Storring 12:33
yeah, and, you know, like, the, the ultimate issue here is a soul issue. But even if you're listening to this, and you're like, you know, you need to have some of the secular stuff brought up, it's like, you're just gonna be miserable, you're gonna have a meaningless life devoid of purpose. And you might say, Well, I feel good in the moment. And if I just have enough of these moments of dopamine or whatever, then like, I never have to think about that. But at the end of the day, man, at the end of your life, you're gonna look back and go, Oh, no, like, I wasted all of it. And I'm scared of that for kids. But there's also a lot of dads listening, who probably experienced that pain themselves. And so this is almost like twofold, right? Like, we got to defend our kids against this. But some of us need to go through the growing up as a father, have you seen that be the case, you work with guys who are like older and dealing with this as well?
Bryan Pue 13:17
Yeah, it's very true. Like, I think I remember hearing a leader say that, you know, sometimes in maturity, you need to choose your pain, you know, that sense of choosing the pain of change, or choosing the pain of regret. And, and I'm thankful to see like that there are a lot of men who are waking up, and I think some of it is connected to the sense of more culturally, it's becoming more culturally acceptable for men to admit that they have emotions, you know what I mean? And because, like, if you just try to live this life, not having the self awareness of your emotional patterns and everything going on in your inner life, then you start making some pretty destructive decisions. And some of it's even as simple as being a workaholic. You know what I mean? And, and, but that was, you know, a certain time that was like, the earmark of authentic manhood is that you're working long hours to provide for your family. And I'm like, that's really great and noble, but your, your family needs you to be present at home, too. You know, and I mean, and so I am thankful to see that there are men who, who are willing to even at a later time or in their life, and maybe not, you know, maybe not as early as they would have liked, but they are responding to that call and just being like, yeah, I gotta I gotta be the man that maybe I wasn't, I didn't have in my life. I've got to be more for my kids and what I experienced, and I think that's, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah.
Curt Storring 14:42
And we're seeing that too, inside of our brotherhood is we do a lot of work on like, emotional mastery, and just realizing that like, hey, actually, these are data points. And they're even things like anger or, you know, normal to experience and how you react to them is actually the more important thing here. And so there's a lot of that. And I had to go through that personally before I could bring it to my kids. And that's why I suffered as a father for so long. Like, I just didn't know. And so I'd scream at them and they scream back. And I'm like, Why are you screaming? It's like, All right, yeah. Because I'm teaching them all the wrong things. Do we want to go into them, like how to actually build our children up as fathers? Because like I said to you before third recording, I think is Dad's one of our main goals, mean abilities, is instilling a very self, or internally referenced, I should say, not self, internally referenced identity, rather than, like you were saying before looking everywhere, outside of you for that external validation. Is that something you guys have given thought to as parents?
Bryan Pue 15:41
Yeah, absolutely. You know, we had a, I came across a guy who is a pastor from New York named John Tyson. And he's written a book called the intentional father. And within that, it's kind of I'm trying to forget, I'm trying to remember the name of his curriculum that he did. It's totally escaping me, it's probably going to come back. Like, once this interview is over, it's going to come back to me, I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, I'll make sure I get it to you. But he wrote a book called the intentional father, and it's a book around being a dad that I had never really experienced. And I think he would even say to like, in his search, as you know, being a dad, he couldn't really find anything that was like this. And, and not just speaking to like the hypothetical, like theory of fatherhood, and the things you should be doing, but a clear action plan like strategy to raise up specifically young men who, you know, are raised up to be strong leaders and, and I just happen to come across that, and that just really impacted me deeply. Number one, to start to deal with my own my own shortcomings and failures, you know, what I mean, and, but also be purposeful and strategic in developing a plan to get my boys from, you know, childhood to adulthood, from, from being a young boy to being a man with the most tools in their tool belt as possible, you know, to be to be set up. And, and so as I would honestly recommend, that resource is so great. Because it just really helps you to create that strategy. You know, I mean, honestly, I just, I cannot stress it enough that like men need to overcome their, the shame of their past, because I feel like shame silences so many men. And I think like, you know, a lot of guys are good at, you know, talking, sitting around and talking about cars, and sitting around talking about fishing, or hunting or whatever. But like, we've got to talk about the stuff that really matters, you know, what I mean? Like, who, who's looking into your life, and who have you given, like freedom to speak into your life and say, Hey, like, we need to find freedom here. And I want to help walk with you like, like, those are the types of conversations we need to be having as men. Because if we're experiencing that in our own personal lives, that's going to overflow into how we parent, I've never, I've never found myself being strong as a dad, when I've been operating in shame in my own life, or just disappointment, if I'm not taking that to the Lord taking that, you know, to the faithful, trustworthy community, and just being honest about what's going on in my life. I don't parent Well, you know what I mean, and I'm not really the type of man that I want my kids to be. So I would just encourage courage men to take those steps to have some honest communication, honest conversation with people who, who love them, and who are committed to them about what's really going on in their heart and not living in isolation. Because Because that only that only leads to a furthering of the, the, the destructive behaviors we're seeing in society today. Yeah,
Curt Storring 18:55
and that was such a huge part of my own journey is once I got into a men's group, once I actually started talking to men, it like it lifted a veil, in a sense, and also our journey. stay accountable to who I said it was going to be, because they were going to call me out. And it's so easy to be a lone wolf and hide. And it's actually you know, people are always like, Oh, no, I'm a lonewolf. I'm self made. It's like, Yeah, but you're actually hiding. You know, nobody got there alone successfully. But that shame piece, man, like, that's a huge I had a ton of, do you want to touch a little bit more on that? Like, how, how are you getting over this shame and clearing that out?
Bryan Pue 19:29
Yeah, well, I think, you know, there's a lot of different psychologists that have different definitions of what shame is, you know, shame is that there's something wrong with you and guilt is something that you've done something wrong. And I would say that there's there's an aspect of that, but like, this is the good news, at least of the Gospel is that Jesus steps into the human experience and is able to separate our history from our heart. And I would say that shame is is what our past is where our past is continuing to reach into our future, because of decisions that we've made or because of things that we did, or things that people did to us that we haven't we haven't really let go of we haven't really surrendered. Because I think in the biblical narrative, like we see in Genesis that when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, which was a clear commandment that God said, Hey, don't eat from that. They hid themselves, you know, right. So like when there's a transgression, when there's something that's out of order, when there's a crossing of a boundary, when there's something that that's happened, that shame causes that isolation. But the good news is, God came looking for Adam and Eve. And so that's good news to men out there. If you're dealing with shame, dealing with regret dealing with self hatred, even because of the decisions that you've made. In the past, God's looking for you, God's coming to find you. And he, it's so interesting, he takes the he takes the coverings that Adam and Eve had made for themselves and says, I'm gonna make you something even better. And so God, God's desire is to bring people into the place of confession, bringing, you know, what was done in the dark, what was done in the secret into the light and diffusing its power over someone's life, and then putting on them because the covering that God would have made them he made from an animal, which I think is foreshadowing of Jesus, who comes and takes on the sins of the world. And then we get to wear that robe of righteousness through faith in him, right. So. So I would see there's a clear process and that God comes looking for them. And he asked him questions, he asked Adam, where were you? Like, where are you? He's coming to look. And he asked a position question to a man. And then asked this question to Eve. He says, What is this that you've done? So this even highlights the difference between men and women, that there is a positional aspect that God has towards men, there's leadership, there's covering and protection that God has instilled within men. That's that's like an intricate part of who we are. And then there's a relational question that he asked to women. And this is, this is an important part for authentic manhood is like, you need to understand, you know, guys who are married or young man, you're going to be married one day, you know, women are different, despite what our society might say women are different. And there's a relational aspect towards a woman's heart that's not so much based on just the positional aspect. He asked the relational question trying to draw that out from Eve. But anyway, I say that the the whole process of walking out with shame is answering that question, Where were you? What happened? What did you do, and what was done to you, and then you release that to God, and what God is able to do as he separates the things that we've done, from the things that were done to us, right, because those are two different things. And sometimes that shame ball that we call, it kind of gets all muddled up that we don't even know the difference between what was done to us. And then what we did, and, and I think that's really important for, for guys to hear is we're seeing the stats, at least as men maybe becoming more honest about what's going on. But the stats are showing more and more than men have experienced sexual abuse and sexual trauma growing up. And that, that can reach into your future, reach into your marriage reach into a lot of things about your life. And sometimes it shows up in real, quote, unquote, noble ways, because guides are hiding in their work, they're hiding in there, you know, a lot of things that the world would give them accolades for, but they're just not healed. You know,
Curt Storring 23:43
man, yeah, that's really good. And I think like, there's a shame piece as well, that, for me, like we've, we've told the guys that, whatever happened to you, it's probably not your fault. And you are now fully responsible for dealing with that, or owning that or moving on from, and there's that separation between the things that happened to you and your response to them. And I think that's been very important for me too, because I have looked in my past, and I've been like, I just want these people to say they're sorry. And it's like, well, some of them are dead. You know, they're never gonna say that to me, and I gotta move on anyway. So I have to take the ability to this. But I think there's probably an element of like forgiveness in this too. Because literally, for me, it's like, oh, I deserve to be punished for how I've acted. And I used to go into shame spirals. Even as a father. I was like, I was so bad for them. I'll never forgive myself. But that takes me further and further away from them. And so I think, especially as you're saying here, like there's this element of forgiveness from the Lord, that you can also use to just like, let go of all of that knowing that like no matter what you do, like you couldn't possibly do something that removes that from you, if you confess and put your faith in that and that like did that really encourages me? I'm a brand new Christian as well. So like this for have given us like, oh, yeah, but what about that? And he's like, Yeah, I got you. I'm like, why? Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. And that just like, man, it's given me so much space to operate outside of that shame, and start doing nothing.
Bryan Pue 25:11
Absolutely. And something that really impacted me when when I heard it, too, is like, because I would kind of relate like, so I'm pretty hard on myself who can be pretty results orientated. Like, I grew up playing competitive sports. And this is like, you know, I had a rugby coach, he said, negative reinforcement for positive change. So you can kind of tell what kind of coach he was, you know, and it's this, like, we're gonna highlight everywhere you failed in order to make sure you've never do that again. And so some of that, you know, some of that is my nature to a certain extent of it. Some of that's just been cultivated over the years. But, you know, we tend to say, like, Oh, I know, I know, God forgives me, but I can't forgive myself. I go, like, just hold on a second. Hold on a second, you're telling me that the creator of the universe holy and perfect in every which way you know, who has a higher standard than you even think you have, is able to forgive you and has made a way to forgive you, but you can't forgive yourself? I go, let's let's maybe step down a little bit. Let's humble ourselves a little bit. Because I think you're thinking too highly of your own internal standard. And you can't like none of us can live vibrant, flourishing lives having standards for our life that God doesn't have, you know, what I mean, and carrying a burden that God doesn't call us to carry? You know, and this, this is the good news of the gospel. You know,
Curt Storring 26:33
I was having that conversation, even with my son yesterday, because he was feeling bad about himself. And the same sort of thing. I'm like, actually, that's a prideful, selfish heart, man. Like, if you think that you have a different standard than God, and you need to be punished. You need to feel bad. It's like, I don't know, man. Like there's a heart issue there that we got to work on. So let's talk yeah, yeah, yeah. Are there things like in terms of parenting, I want to go into like, you've got six boys, that's, that's a lot. How do you think about parenting them as like a general guideline? And or, I'm just thinking about, like, affirming them to, because I've noticed that like, what you just said about the rugby coach, as okay, I'm, I'm prone to doing that, as you probably are. I'm really proud. Like, I'll pick out all the things that are wrong, because I do that for myself. And I'm pretty good at changing them. And I have noticed, like my kids thrive on positive affirmation. And I've got to really remind myself to do that, for sure. So are there any other things like that, that you want to talk about? Just raising single? Yeah.
Bryan Pue 27:29
Well, I think that the Oreo approach to correction is so important. You know what I mean, you have that affirmation, you have the the correction, which is like the filling of the Oreo, and then you have the affirmation again, and even like, we found it in like disciplining our kids, like, when there was rebellion, not just childishness. Like, it's so much time it'd be talking them through like what happened. And again, we're probably gonna get canceled, because I'm gonna say I spanked or our kids, how dare you know what, I hope you enjoyed the podcast, buddy. But But yeah, so like we would when we discipline our kids, like we talk through, you know, and then there would be the discipline part, and then maybe they would cry, and but there would be so much affirmation so much, like, Hey, Dad doesn't hate you, God, Dad loves you. And I know you're gonna be coming, I'm actually my goal is that you would grow and be grow beyond this, like, I don't want you to be sentenced to this type of behavior. Because if, you know, we would often say our kids like, hey, if I don't spank you, the police, the police are going to, you know, so let's again, that's not popular, but we've already started on that road. So. But like, I think that's, that's really important, the affirmation and the correction, right? Because I think there's maybe been a school of thought in past generations, it's like, I'm going to catch you doing wrong. Right. And I think we need to be aware of, of things that like, as dads, we need to be aware of the things that yes, maybe our kids are going to stray they're doing something wrong or or they just need to be shaped and and motivated in another direction. But at the same time, we need to be catching them doing right and affirming that because if you if you don't do that, then you just become that resounding, noisy gong that like, nobody's going to enjoy listening to you. Yep. I'm never enough dad. I'm never good enough. I never get it, right. Sure. heard that before. I'm just gonna live my life. I don't care what you have to say, you know, and so we need and eventually that like that tends to happen as they grow up and maybe move out of the home and they find this whole world of freedom. But and it just becomes very reactionary and the types of decisions that they made. They're making decisions to rebel against everything that they've had over the years prior. So I would again, just like kids need to have that affirmation that attention what was the other a there An affirmation attention and affection, you know what I mean? So you're giving your time you're giving your words you're giving your you're giving your focus, you know, and I think that's so, so important. I would say like, even when it comes to really helping young men live honorably when it comes to sexuality, is if you give a prohibition, but you don't give the reason why, you know what I mean, if you don't really lay that out, then that leads to obligation, you know what I mean? So like, a friend of mine says it this way, if, if we're where there's no revelation, excuse me, when prohibition without revelation leads to obligation. But if you can show the motivation behind the command behind the instruction, or even the boundary that's put about around it, then you realize, oh, well, actually, this isn't, you know, to keep something from me This is to keep something for me. So when we're telling young people all the time, okay, you know, Flee youthful lust and don't think about sex, don't think about sex, it's just like, Well, okay, fine, I won't think about sex, but like, let's even you know, the listeners, if we were to say, hey, stop thinking about purple monkeys on the count of three, you know, like, you're gonna start seeing them all over the place, you know, like, you're driving, as you're listening to this, you're seeing them swinging from the lamppost, right? Like, it's really easy to when there isn't an understanding as to the motivation behind the command, it's really easy to not see the point. But something I really enjoy, I try to encourage our boys in is like, without vision, people cast off restraint. So like, when you when you're looking to the type of the future, man, that you're going to be the future dad, the future husband, maybe, you know, like, if God has that for you down the road, like, Who are you going to be? And can you continue to make decisions in these early years of your life, that are not in line with that person and expect to get there? The reality is, is no, you know, but if you have a vision for your life, then that that's going to cause you not to say yes to some things that's going to cause you to say no to a bunch of other things. Because you know, who you're really called to be, you have that vision and that goal of what type of man you want to be in the future. And I think that's, that's what really the young generation needs the most is, is that installation of vision and purpose. Because everything in our society is trying to rob that from them, that even being human, there's nothing special about it, you know, even human existence, there's nothing, there's nothing to it. And, and I think that's showing up in the fruit, fruit of our society, in a lot of brokenness to young people. So instilling vision and purpose. Specifically, as a data young boys, I think that's so important right now.
Curt Storring 32:46
Yeah, I really liked that man, like I've part of homeschooling, because we just started that this year, as well. I had like a goal setting lesson for them over, like just before the new year, because that's what I was doing in my life. And so number one, model it if you want them to follow it, but number two, like bring this to them. And so we talk a lot about what we are doing as parents, which is to say, I'm trying to raise you up to be a good man. And what does a good man look like? And that takes a longer term vision, like you're saying, so that they know, okay, I'm on this path. And it's not just like, well, like for me, my father loved them. Amazing. Funny, all the rest, but not a leader, I would say no, like, no land, no vision, I wasn't sure where I was supposed to go. And I was just let to do everything. And at the time, I was like, Oh, I love this freedom. I can do anything. They trust me. But I look back and go, Man, I didn't have any plan. I didn't know where I was going. And I made bad decisions because of that. And so I'm trying to give them what you just said, which is this long term vision. You are called for some reason? God's put you here for a reason. Let's find out what that is. But you have to be a good man of integrity along the way to get there.
Bryan Pue 33:54
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I think that's so important. The modeling aspect like because my wife and I were talking about this, she came across this interesting study that I think it's the Osprey which is that kind of like the same type of bird is it anyways it's like a predatory kind of bird like similar to like an eagle is like a more but hangs around more water base stuff. But anyways, that's I'm not as you can tell, I'm not a bird expert. Major fail anyways. So the Osprey is when it's teaching is its babies to fly or it's, you know, adolescent birds to fly. It doesn't just push them out of the nest, it actually demonstrates to them what flying is actually like, like, it'll do these crazy sleeps in front of the nest and all this stuff. And it's like, wow, that is so, so interesting that it's trying to build this inspiration for maturity, this inspiration for, for the freedom that that maturity is meant to bring to you, you know what I mean? And that's meant to inspire, you know, growing up and stepping out of the nest and So it's like some birds just kind of push their their chicks out of the nest. It's like, well, we've done that for quite some time. But like, you know, how about we try inspiring, you know, the purpose and meaning and the beauty of, of living mature, you know? Yeah, totally good man.
Curt Storring 35:15
And I'm trying to like part of this whole dad work thing is like, I want to inspire dads that this can be awesome. Like, do you realize that parenting and marriage can be literally the best part of your life? And like you said, We've almost all of us in this day and age have been pushed out. And it's like, oh, good luck, the old ball and chain like you really want more kids. For Kids? It's like, No, this is awesome. And I think like most dads I've talked to, I've never even heard that. And so I'm trying to, like, inspire through my own life. Like, actually, my marriage is literally the best part of my life. And it's so good to be a dad. It's so rewarding and so much fun. That I think we need to do a better job of not letting the world scoff at us. And we, like I'm not going to be judging or condemning. But in this analogy, I'm like, I kind of want to be the one to scoff at the world be like, wait, you. You don't think marriage is right. You don't like being a dad? Like, what's wrong with you, man? Not what's wrong with me? Yeah. And so yeah, I think like the the modeling is both good for our children and society at large to give guys hope, that this is actually the best. And I think like a little bit of that as well goes into family leadership. And I think like, I've been reading a lot lately, I've been really thinking about what this looks like to be a family leader or family Shepherd, as Cody Baucom. would call it, I just read that. But yeah. How do you see your role here? Because like, you're talking to your kids about this, you seem to have a great marriage. And I want to touch on that in a second. But family leadership, what comes to mind intentionally? As you're leading your family?
Bryan Pue 36:43
Yeah, well, I think you need to be leading yourself first. You know, that's, that's a big deal. And Are are you letting? Are you letting God lead you? Or like, are you faithfully falling after him? And that's those are important questions to, to answer and to reflect on? Like, are you? Are you making decisions for yourself to be the best person that God's called you to be? Are you are you doing that? Are you dealing with your own stuff? Are you? Are you living transparently and vulnerably? With those who you trust in your life? That's a great question. And then, like, I think a lot of the leadership that I have in with my boys is directly connected to my marriage, like, I know, we're gonna probably get there. But like, I can't be a good dad and a bad husband. You know, what I mean? And, and second, and second of all, like, I can't be, you know, a good, a good husband and a bad dad, it's like, good luck doing that, you know what I mean? But like, like, that's really important, the type of, and again, I don't have any daughters, like, I just have, I just have boys. So I'm modeling to them, the type of like, authentic manhood that that Jesus calls us to, and the type of man that lays down his life for his wife, you know, as Jesus did the church, you know, giving Himself up for her. So like, sacrificially serving and I will be the first to tell you, dude, I'd fail in this. Sometimes I dropped the ball, like, life life in this, at least in this last season has been really great in a lot of the important areas of our life. But it's been really challenging in some other areas. And it just, it puts stress on you. And I failed in some ways, and, but I've also demonstrated to them to my boys, authentic manhood that's able to go and make right what you've made wrong and humble yourself and say, Hey, I was wrong here. The way dad responded, like, the even the way that dad spoke to mom, I shouldn't have done that. I, I snapped back that was not okay. And that's not the type of man I'm going to be. It's not the type of man I want to be. And that's not who, you know, that's, again, speaking to my boys. It's not the type of woman that your mom is, is. And that's not the type of treatment that she's worthy to have. So it's like even in even in our failures, if we're living effectively as husbands like that, that leads our kids while they're seeing it by example.
Curt Storring 39:08
Yeah, exactly. You know, what, why don't we want to get into eventually, like how you're relating to your kids in terms of the conversation of sexuality in the world versus homeschooling versus like, what age so I want to get there, but as you're talking about marriage, what I noticed when you were speaking at Riverside, is I was like I kept hearing this woman and she was like really pumped up, she was given you a ton of praise. Because like Man, this woman is like really excited about this message, like oh, that's his wife. And she was so supportive dude. And so like that weren't my wife and I talked about it afterwards. Like that was his wife. She loves what he's doing. She's so supportive. She's so has his back and make them in like it was really legit. And I'm wonder No, if you just want to talk about like how you have actually developed this marriage and just been like a husband to Life who supports you like that?
Bryan Pue 40:02
Yeah. Oh, wow. That's a great question. First of all, I appreciate, you know what you just said there and my wife, I don't mean to brag, but like, I just gotta speak the truth. She is pretty amazing. I'm very thankful for her. And of course, we are charismatics to a certain extent, we're like, biblical charismatic. So it's like, we're shouting each other down when, before it's preaching. So, anyways, but, you know, I think number one, like we see each other as teammates, you know, what I mean? That we're not, we're not trying to just be two people navigating family like we are, and life and direction and children, everything, we're not kind of just like, adults that just share the same house. And we have, we've had kids, like, we are teammates in this. And so, and I think, like, we have very similar passions, and I think God is, and I think that's maybe even important for maybe some young guys, if they're listening to you, or maybe even in that stage of, kind of discerning relationships and stuff. And, and like, I'd really encourage them to, like, be looking for that person who would compliment you well, and who you would compliment well like, and not necessarily like, oh, the better half or whatever, like, because that's not really how math works. You know, what I mean, are like, the math of relationships don't work like that, like one broken person. And another broken person does not make a hole. Like you want to find somebody like you want to be a whole person you want to be quote, unquote, Mr. Right? And be looking for Mrs. Right, that teammate that God has for you, who's running the same direction, who you guys can link arms and support each other. And I think to like in our marriage, we've committed that we would use our strengths to cover each other's weaknesses, not use our strengths to expose each other's weaknesses. And unfortunately, that can just be so detrimental to our relationship, when people don't see that covenant language that when we committed to each other in covenant marriage, we are saying your strengths, can cover my weaknesses, and I'm gonna let my strengths cover yours. So that so that we can both walk victoriously into the calling that God has for us. So yeah, so I think that that just plays into it so much. And again, like love loving relationship is always a choice, you have to make a choice, if you're just going to base that type of type of lifestyle is just going to be based off of a like a feeling, I was like, I'll do that when I feel it. It's like good luck. You know, like, that'll maybe be like a few, a few minutes a day, you'll probably feel that way. You have to choose love, you have to and I'm thankful that Bonnie has continually chosen love and I've, I've done my absolute best to choose love for her and support her and be the type of man that that God calls me to be, you know, and so I think that just plays into the the support that we have for each other. Because I think we do need to be within the work that we're doing. We need to be each other's fans, you know what I mean to encourage each other because it's very easy to get discouraged. But I think that's also what we've chosen to be whether we're doing something else or doing this. So
Curt Storring 43:10
yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. And I've heard it say, you know, love is a verb. It's an action word. And because you have to continue to make that choice. Are there things that you guys do to regularly check in with each other? Because like, that's a lot you guys got going on?
Bryan Pue 43:23
Yeah, you know, we obviously it's highly contested, but the weekly date night is so important. And I would even say like if you can, in some of the premarital counseling stuff that I've done with people I've encouraged them to to have like a weekly meeting, that's maybe not so much just kind of like relationally based and like fun base as the the date night is supposed to be. But just like here's this more of like a weekly business meeting, here's here's how here's how the kids are doing. Here's how I'm doing. You know, this is coming up next month, this is a family stuff and like you're just going through just things just kind of being on the same page when it comes to some of the practical things. And within that, you're going to hear heart things like I there's times it's very interesting. The a woman's heart is so uniquely connected to so many different things. And you know, she's feeling overwhelmed about the kids and feeling overwhelmed about finances and this and that and everything and you get to her heart by just listening and hearing what's on her mind. And so, I think I think having a weekly business meeting has been really helpful. But again, like there's a lot going on, and so it's highly contested, and so we try to get it on the calendars as early as we can. So
Curt Storring 44:38
dude, I just want to all the guys in our brotherhood, please listen to this and know that it's not just me telling you Oh, maybe we should do this. Like No dude, other guys do this too. And it works. Like yeah, we've been doing this for last little while and we've got a family meeting. So we just had ours yesterday. We do everyone together and you know it's harder with Homeschool three year old but we have one of these meetings with all of us and got a really good share from my oldest last night about how he was feeling about his upcoming birthday party. And it's like, okay, we had some work to do there, which is awesome. But the day before was date night, which we got on the calendar, and we just had a check in, we actually went through my self audit system, which is like 10 or 12 areas of life, give yourself a rating, and then why and then what are you want to do about that? So it's like, we had conversations about like finances, and where we live, and how we're parenting and how we're married together, like how our marriage is going. And it was so good. And we do this, we try and do weekly. And like you said, sometimes, you just can't make work because you know, 30 things going on, but like, 90% of the time we do this, because we just never get farther away than, you know, a couple inches in terms of like, being together and being connected. Yeah. And what I found as well, is that when you're constantly communicating like that, there's no room for bitterness and resentment to build, because you're always just saying this thing. I want to deal with this. Yeah, so that's really helped me. Do you guys have any insights on like, resentment or bitterness? You ever experienced that?
Bryan Pue 45:57
Oh, well, I think it by nature grows, whether it's distance, you know what I mean? Like when you're not creating an atmosphere of accountability, like, it's really great. Just, you know, you want to go out, go see a movie, go to dinner, or whatever, and not talk about what's really going on. And then you kind of throw your hands up, like, well, I've done I took you to the movies, I did this, and we went on this trip, and yeah, but you never, you never actually, like opened yourself up to honest feedback. You know what I mean? You just went and did like the nice, quote, unquote, romantic things. But like, you've never actually dealt with, like, taking, letting your wall down, letting her speak to things that are going on that maybe you're doing without even realizing that are just eroding the trust that she has. And like, because here's the crazy thing, we don't know where each other's trust account is that like, if you compare it like trust to like, money, it's like you don't know where your trust account is. So sometimes, sometimes with people unless you're having those purposeful conversations, and then it's like, some marriages get to a point where there's just complete bankruptcy. And, and they're just like, they don't know why it's because we've never like men have never set an atmosphere to be like, Hey, we're going to have honest communication, and accountability. I want to know, how am I serving you in a way that lets you know that you're being served, you know, and loved and cared for? Or am I just brushing it off and just trying to make up for it with trips to this place that place? You know, buying expensive things? No, man, like, I think when you're not having those honest, real communication and honest dialogue and feedback and humbling yourself and putting together like, Okay, I heard what you said, is this, what you're saying, I heard you say this, well, okay, if that's what you said, I'm going to be doing this, this and this to make sure that we're heading in the right direction. So you don't, so you know, that I heard you and I'm taking it to heart, and that we're going to make changes and I'm going to I'm going to be a different husband, I'm going to be a different dad. And I can tell you when you're not having those conversations, we've had seasons of our life where it's been really busy. And, and it it shows up even just within a month of just like, oh, this doesn't seem right. Like oh, like, we're just not on the same page. And it's like, I can't imagine what it's like, you know, living that way for, you know, more, more than like, three months ago, like I would absolutely lose it. Yeah. So I just can't encourage guys more like, let the wall down. Be willing to hear some hard things and take it to heart and and say, All right, well, I'm willing to make a change, you know, and serve your serve your wife.
Curt Storring 48:35
Yes, men serve as part so big. And I tell my guys trust is the currency of intimacy. And represent man like, you've got to build that trust by doing the right thing doing the thing you were gonna say that you said you were gonna do? And like you said, help her feel emotionally and spiritually safe. Yeah, a lot of us are just like, like you said, I do all this stuff I provide. It's like protecting provide. It's like, yeah, good for you, bro. That's the cost of entry to being here. Now was so good. And it's like, so yeah, the emotional side where where she can feel connected. You can't just poopoo that and go like, Oh, I wish it wasn't so emotional. It's like no, dude, that's your call to become more emotional, and to breed that into her so that she can feel safe to build that trust to build the intimacy, all things fall together.
Bryan Pue 49:21
Well, and I think like I touched on earlier, like women are primarily relational. Yeah, you know what I mean? And that means like, and it's not even that men aren't, aren't relational, or that they aren't even emotional like, but this is the main currency of a woman's heart is relationship. And that's rooted in safety, security, permanence and commitment. You know what I mean? Are you are you showing that you're committed to her because you're you're Are you showing that you're committed to care for because in your lack of communication, you're, I don't know there's a long list of things that can be eroding that sense of Men, men and care and nurturing and so you've got to be creating a pathway of communication for those things.
Curt Storring 50:06
Yeah, man 100% communication, emotional mastery. There's like two of the game changers that when you get them as a husband, and they lead into being a good father, too. So, I mean, this is generally being a good human. As far as I'm Yeah, exactly. I want to make sure before we were at a time to talk about how to talk about sex with kids. This is something that like, I've heard a million things, very interested with what you guys are doing and how you navigate this, in terms of like, what you talk about, is it a conversation? Is it a single talk? Is it like age based? Can you maybe rundown? A general how to, for us?
Bryan Pue 50:42
Yeah, I'll do the best I can. Like I think, you know, some of this has just been trial and error over the years. And but I think where we've settled in, and this shows up in how we administer on the topic to with churches, and people is like, sexuality is not gross sexuality, the sexuality also is not God. It is a gift, right. And so how we steward this gift is really, really important. Because I think when parents are maybe dealing with shame in this area, they're not really convinced that this that sexuality is beautiful, they have areas of pain, it shows up in how they talk about it, if they even talk about it to their kids, you know what I mean? So, I would only encourage parents to be like, Can you honestly say that with confidence that sexuality is beautiful, and that's a good starting point. So that means opening up about some areas maybe of abuse or just shame from your past, I would encourage you to do that. But that then we that's the always the tone, that we communicate it to our boys is that even to some of the the older ones, there's avenues of hormones and stuff that have started to rush into the real world, you know, like, you say, like, hey, like, you need to know that, that God doesn't hate you, because you have a sex drive. Right? God doesn't hate you, because you have a sex drive. If you did not have a sex drive, you could not fulfill the command to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth. Like if this is the this is the reality is like part of growing up and maturity is learning to steward that sex drive and protect and honor that sex drive, and hold it for the fireplace like we were referring to before when that time that God unites unites you with that, that teammate to run into your destiny with within marriage. And so but like, when we've been talking to our kids, like the younger, the younger kids specifically, we do not you don't even have to talk about the biology or the physicality of, of sex to talk about sex when you can talk about identity how and blessing who they are, as you know, we've said God's made you a boy for a reason God's made you a girl for a reason, blessing that, that part. And even identifying that, that with each with each identity is either a man or a woman, there are weights that come with that. And sometimes it's challenging, but encouraging them that these aspects that are very difficult, and sometimes feel weighty are actually, you know, could be the wings on the bird that like, because this is sorry, I kind of used an analogy that I need to clarify now. So like Elizabeth Elliott use this language like kind of referring to that the same aspect of an elephant or an animal, let's use the term L or the animal elephant. So the trunk of an elephant can be viewed viewed as some some weight weighty hindrance in the in the life of an elephant. But it's actually what makes part of what makes elephant who it is, it's what he uses to scoop up water to drink like this, you could look at it and be like, Oh, that's such a huge hindrance. It's kind of obnoxious, you know what I mean? But it's like, but this is this is something that's meant to be beautiful within the design. And just like a bird, the bird can say, hey, my wings are just heavy in this hanging around, but like the the wings are used for you to fly and experience the freedom of your, your design. So like, you have to be able to acknowledge those those aspects of the difficulties within being a man the difficulties within being a woman, but know that some of those distinctives God wants to use to be liberating and free in your in your life. And like you don't even have to talk about the actual biology of sexual experience in order to do that you're just blessing who they are as men who they are as, as young man who they are as young women. And really, again, just touching again, like talking about the future the vision that God has for them and and and that, within that that's going to call that's going to call them to honor it's gonna call them to self restraint and self government as they grow up.
Curt Storring 54:54
Man, that's really good. I really liked the identity piece and then the affirmation that comes from that. Is there a point Have you found that it's like, Hey, we gotta go into more of the nitty gritty as they get older and then, like, get them to understand that while also being like, Temperance is pretty important here, even though it's like, good, and you want this and you're probably feeling like this total is what it looks like. But also, it's important to like, wait.
Bryan Pue 55:19
Yeah, oh, for sure. Because like, I think we've always talked about this in the context of like, over the years, like, Oh, we're gonna have the talk with them. You know what I mean? And it's like, that can be a little much, because I heard somebody say, like, you know, if you only dealt with sexuality, one time in your life, that one conversation would would suffice. But like, we deal with this on a daily basis, like is living this life, especially now, as we're dealing with a very sex saturated culture, young young people are subjected to things all the time. And so you need to be having conversation all the time on this. In very, very, not intimidating ways, you know, just kind of very everyday kind of approach to it. But the reason I say that is, like, you need to know your kids, like, if you're walking with your kids, you're going to kind of see some things. So like, I think they're ready to maybe hear this. And this is where I kind of lean on my wife a little bit more as she you know, she's doing the homeschooling with them through the day, she kind of starts to see what's going on in them. And a probably a closer way than I would is she spends more time with them through the day and starts to go like, actually, I think he seems to be kind of curious about this, you know, Brian, you might want to try to have a conversation with them. And but we also, we also, even within that we try to schedule like weekly times that each of us are with the boys and having one on one time, so that they're that pathway of communication, either with myself or Barney has always been there. And that's, it's usually within that just everyday kind of conversation making yourself available that a lot of these questions start to come up. Because if you sit them down into like, Hey, we're going to talk about sex, now, you're probably not going to get very far. But if you're just going to go and get a milkshake and just talk about things that are going on, you'll probably find that out of the consistency of doing that a lot of questions start to come up. And then that kind of, they kind of answered the question for themselves, like, Are they ready, ready to hear this, but at the same time, you're marrying an awareness of like, I gotta get ahead of the world on some of these topics, you know what I mean? Because it's like, I don't want my kids finding out about sex through porn hub or something like that, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's not the way to find out. So,
Curt Storring 57:32
ya know, that's, that's one of the things that I talked to, had will Noland on he was removed from his position and eaten one of the boys schools in the UK for defending masculinity. And he said the same sort of thing, which is like, Well, I wish I didn't have to do this. And if I don't, now, somebody else will, who will have a much worse, richer or my children. And so I really liked that last little bit in terms of just like knowing them and walking with them, because that's going to be the case for everything and doesn't need to make this such a big different issue. It's just like one of the things that you're always communicating about. And I think that's totally, that's my goal is dad to just be there. And have them trust that I'm there too. So anyway, man, I want to be respectful of your time. I think we probably both have things to do at the top of the hour, oh, no, I've got a call. And I was talking, I think your wife booking this and just like, man, you got a lot of stuff going on, too. So let me get all your details in terms of like, where people can find you, what people might get for following and working with you. And just make sure we get people connected?
Bryan Pue 58:35
Yeah, well, I appreciate that. So we're on Instagram and Facebook at the union movement, and our webpage is the union movement.com. And on there, we just we really have a vision just to make a lot of biblically centered resources on sexuality, identity and relationships available for free. So we crowdfund a lot of our E courses just to be able to give away to people. And recently, we launched a an E course called awkward. And it's all about helping parents talk to their kids about sexuality. And so it's a six, a six part series, and there's reflection questions. And it's just, it's not tons of time, like each session is like, maybe 1215 minutes long. But it's gonna be really helpful to kind of get a 30,000 foot perspective on sexuality, but then also bring it down into the everyday kind of conversations. Because like, like, we were just saying, a lot of times, like, we'd say, Oh, well, I don't have a quantity of time with my kids. But I have quality time. It's like, well, you can only have quality time with their kids through quantity of time and continual pursuit in those things. So that's where the E course really helps bring it down into like, the everyday kind of conversation part. But yeah, that's that's where we're at. And we have our union podcasts as well as well, which is on Apple podcasts and Spotify and Google Play Music, if that's where you like to listen to your podcasts. That's where we're at. So sweet
Curt Storring 59:59
man. Uh, well, that's awesome. I'm gonna put all that in the show notes at Dad.Work Slash, man, where is it? Dad.Work slash podcast. If you guys want to get all those links, I'm gonna put everything in there as well as all the resources mentioned Dad.Work slash podcast, Brian, man, this has been really awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time, man.
Bryan Pue 1:00:16
Oh, my brother. It's it's love, and I'm honored to be here. It was such a great time. So I appreciate it.
Curt Storring 1:00:22
Thanks, man. Thank you for listening to the dad work podcast. That's it for this episode. But if you would like to stay in touch between weekly episodes, why don't you go over to Instagram and follow me there because I drop a number of things throughout the week that are related to what we talked about on this podcast but usually go a little bit deeper. provide some tips you can find me on Instagram at dad work dot Kurt. That's da di W O RK dot c u r t. And please, if you have been getting something out of this podcast, if it has touched you if it has improved your marriage, your parenting or your life, would you please leave a quick review on Apple or Spotify. leave a rating. If you have a few extra seconds, leave a quick review. That's the best way that we can get this work in the hands of more fathers. And I truly believe that we change the world, one father at a time because each father that parents better that loves better raises children who do the same. And in just a couple of generations. I feel like we could be living in a world much better than the one we live in today. Your review will help along that path. And I thank you so much for being here to listen until next week. We'll see you then.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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