Curt Storring 0:00
Welcome back to the Dad.Work podcast guys. Thank you for tuning in. And I'm excited today because we've got Chris and Jamie with us. And you guys are basically what all of our listeners are asking for people who've been there and done that. And I say that in the best sort of way, because I'm in it right now I have a young family, I'm, you know, my marriage is 11 years old. But you guys normally have a great long term marriage, but you counsel couples on marriage. And I'm really excited to hear about this. But like I said, before we got into the call. I was like, you typically don't wind up as marriage counselors, because it's just like a thing that you picked. It's usually because you had to work through some things. So very selfishly, could I please hear how you guys got to this point and what you have learned in your marriage journey? And then we will go into some specific questions.

Chris Bailey 0:45
Yeah, sure. We started off doing everything wrong. Yeah. It was a checklist of things that are supposed to give you the least chance in the relationship in marriage that we were going play by play. Yeah, we we met in the bar. We moved in five, five months later

Jamie Bailey 1:07
on. I was three weeks out of a marriage. I was a pregnant teenager, got married very early domestic violence situation sent my ex husband to prison. And three weeks later, I met this man in a bar. You know? What, I mean? Just recipe for success right there. And then yeah, like you said, we moved in right away, and we're just really doing everything wrong. And for me, like I'm, I'm a woman who came from a very dysfunctional family. You know, my father was my parents got divorced when I was about two. Don't ever remember them living together, my mom remarried this abusive, alcoholic angry man. And that's what you know, I grew up and I married the same the same thing and fell into the same situation. No surprise. And so when we met, everything moved, like super fast. And it was because he was such a contrast to everything I've ever seen. And like, this is the greatest thing. And so I'm like, my Savior has come now all my them all my issues are all now going to be away because I've got this incredible man in my life. And turns out that wasn't

Chris Bailey 2:23
working. Well. Well, surprising. I wrote right in on my off white dodge cold. I mean, isn't that what the story is? Right?

Jamie Bailey 2:34
But you filled that role nicely in the beginning, right,

Chris Bailey 2:37
because I am a recovering people pleaser. And so was glad to fill that hole right there that he was glad to fill that role. You know, it was everything. You know, that pedestal that savior that rescuer yet, I was eating it up in a very unhealthy way. Unfortunately, what happens is, over time we get married, and that pedestal gets taller and smaller. And then eventually, it's almost like a scene from an Indiana Jones movie, where it becomes very perilous, and the pending fall and

Jamie Bailey 3:15
what do you gain? The more I wanted? Yeah, we're being chased by a boulder very quickly.

Chris Bailey 3:22
So yeah, so it was it was it was a recipe for? Well, someone might say the recipe for disaster. Others might say a recipe for growth. Yeah. Yeah. Because I had to learn as not only a pleaser, but as a passive husband, whom we run into a lot of those. There's a lot of husbands who will come and they struggle with this idea of either I'm a doormat, or I'm a big jerk. And they don't know how to find a healthy balance. Yeah. And so you know, we try to to help out. But me personally, being a pleaser, I was passive. And I just gave into to her every whim, because I didn't want her to be upset.

Jamie Bailey 4:01
Yeah, and that was the last thing I needed. Because I was not passive. You know, I grew up in the in the war zone. You know, I was a fighter, I was scrappy, and, and battling. And if he didn't do everything perfectly, or give me everything that I wanted, I would come at him. You know, it's really horrible, you know, to say, but that's the truth. I know. That sounds so good. It's not who I am now. But that's what we because I needed him to make me okay. And he's not made to do that. And the more he gave into my dysfunctional ways, the worse they got. I mean, and that's what I tell him like he spent years like feeding the monster. Yeah. Now I'm allowed to say that about myself. He can't do that. But that's what it was. And so his passivity, and his people pleasing was making everything that I was struggling with worse and making it much harder. And so that's the battle we found ourselves in In a lot is that runner chaser mode that that fighter in that FLIR and I was like, way out there and loud and passionate and kind of like, honestly angry a lot. And he was just no opinions very passive and just what do I need to do to make her? So how can

Chris Bailey 5:19
we make this right? You're upset, and you know, and you know, like, let's just work this out, come on, let's work off and let's we can do this. And you know, and then pretty soon that escalates and you find yourself hanging on to a roof rack on a minivan that's just driving down the street. Oh, man, I'm

Jamie Bailey 5:35
running away, and he's on top. And I'm I don't care if you can hold on. It's very dysfunctional, very dysfunctional. How many

Curt Storring 5:44
years did that dynamic play out?

Jamie Bailey 5:47
Behind? Yeah, around five, five years, okay. And that's when things started to change. And that's when, you know, that's when we became Christians, which changed the dynamics completely, you know, coming to know the Lord and learning let you know, what He tells us to do and what he wants for us, it actually works. It's actually right. And we both like that allowed us to have the humility. And that's what helped us the most, is when I would blame him for all of my problems. And when I started to learn, you know, what I need to set pride aside and find some humility and start working on myself. He's not responsible to change me. And I've got to do the work. And so individually, we both started doing the work. And it wasn't as overnight flip the switch kind of a deal. We had to practice this and, and we had, you know, three little children, three daughters by this stage. And so it was a whole lot. And so when we started doing individual work, and we honored and respected one another's work that they were doing, that's when we were like, let's team up in this. And let's, yeah, let's also add grace for where the other ones at, let's work on this together, because we both wanted a better marriage. Neither one of us were happy in dysfunction, and being angry all the time is miserable, and being passive all the time is miserable,

Chris Bailey 7:12
had been built up a lot of resentment, you know, wanting to always keep the peace, but it was peace. It wasn't peacemaking, because there's peace at all costs. So it's really peace faking that acquiescing and giving in? And then then having that resentment sit on my shoulders, because I was giving in and saying yes to things I didn't want to say yes to. Yeah, it was, you know, it was just to, to walk through the monster. Yeah. You were growing bitter. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a root of bitterness, as Greg is just talking about that feeding the monster. I mean, just to put it a different way. There's a reason why we don't give our kids candy. Every when they, you know, at the checkout line, even though they're throwing a fit as far, especially if they're throwing a fit. Yeah. Right. Because eventually, it's just gonna get worse and worse. I mean, that we don't necessarily outgrow that stuff. We just become more sophisticated. tantrums. Yeah. Wait, presents.

Curt Storring 8:11
Okay, so what I'm hearing is like you guys did it at the same time, which was similar for Natalie and I. And that was a huge blessing. And she, we were on a podcast together today. And she felt as though I was a little bit further ahead. And that actually caused a lot of difficulty for her. But what it also did was it showed her that when I was able to hold space, when I wasn't reacting to her, she had to turn the focus on her and go, Oh, I also have problems. Now, that's a hard thing for a lot of, I think women and men to get behind when they are so used to projecting blame on the other person for their problems. And when one party does this, and so I kind of want to get into this now, even though it might not fit chronologically, but when there is someone who is they doing the work, let's say, a husband in my program, he's doing some work. Now he's figuring out his boundaries. He's doing all the things to become a trustworthy man of integrity. He's serving sacrificially while having a strong identity. And his wife's like, well, now I'm very confronted with the fact that you're no longer the problem. And she's almost forced into doing the work herself. Sure. Can you just talk about that dynamic a little bit? Because sometimes it's the wife too. And they asked me I get DMS all the time. What do I do with my husband? Cuz he's not along for the ride? What does that dynamic look like? When the one party is going ahead? Can that party bring the other one around? Or what's the what's the yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Chris Bailey 9:31
No, no, no, that's one of the things that we like to share is it only takes one person to change the dance? Right? The relationships a dancer, the brain loves patterns. And that's what we have the same arguments and the same things over and over again. So it only takes one person to decide, hey, you know what, I'm gonna do this differently. I'm going to be more constructive. I'm going to try to do this in a way that's going to help us reach our goals in a positive way, intentional way, instead of just continuing to run this the same pattern of have hurt and of hopelessness. And so if that one person decides, Okay, I'm gonna step back, maybe I'm not going to become reactive, maybe you know, instead of trying to push my point, I'm going to make sure that I get their point. First, I'm going to be humble. You know, Jimmy mentioned that, you know, I'm going to have some humility. And then a while later, you need to listen to me and you knew well, okay, let me let me listen to you. Let me let me find out what it is that's going on with you. And why this is important, why this is happening. And since we all want to be heard and understood, it usually coax coaxes coax it usually helps the other person get into a position where they feel heard and understood. They feel like you're actually you're on their side. And then they're more open to hearing what you have to say or to hearing your point. If you even have a point. Yeah, and the solution might just be that they that they feel heard and understood. And you might we know, couples who spent years who've struggled just to feel like they've been heard.

Jamie Bailey 11:00
Yeah, and it doesn't always transition that smoothly. And it kind of didn't before us, because that's what I will say the thing that changed me the most was him having boundaries. That's what helped change me. And I did not I wasn't, it was annoying. Yeah, it was not a willing participant, you know, out of the gate, because if you're feisty, like me, I was very reactive, very, like triggered all the time and very reactive. And, and, you know, the the yeller and the angry one? Well, when I'm like that, the last thing I want is for him to be calm. The last thing I want is for him to be a voice of reason and calm and, and why because my rage on the backdrop of his calm. It's obvious, it's me. And you know, and I had that choice. At first, it's like, That's very frustrating. That's annoying, because it is, you know, we talk about, you know, that toddler behavior at the checkout, you know what, when you tell them know, the first several times you go to the store, their fits might get bigger, because they're trying to get you to cave. And I was not any different. Now, I wasn't intentionally coming up with this game plan to do this, to sabotage it. I needed him, I needed it to be his fault. You know, because of the work I would have to do would be so hard and difficult. And so in the beginning, it was I was very resistant to that. And I would just okay, let me poke him as much as I can. I need him to get mad. So that way I could justify See, that's why I'm yelling at you. But he stopped giving that to me, he's chose to stop giving me everything that I wanted, he quit responding, you know, to all of my needs. And all the things, you know, that I was, you know, yelling at him about are the things that and when I say what I wanted, it was things you know, just about cleaning the house or doing this, I had all these high, crazy standards. And he would just run around doing all of them. Well, he started adding reason to that, you know, and I didn't like it. But after a while doing that, it became so obvious, I couldn't deny that I was the problem. And in addition to that, I began to want the calm that he had. And so that was like leadership, such leadership. And he was no longer feeding the monster and taking my bad traits and helping them become worse. He was now leading me and pulling me out of them. And that's the thing I needed more than anything. But that is scary. Because change requires vulnerability. And vulnerability is scary, but it's also connecting. It's one of the most connecting things we can do. And so it began to be like a, it's a slower process. But 100% one spouse can lead the way, it just may not be immediate.

Curt Storring 14:02
That's so good to hear that this is like one of the number one issues that I talked to guys with when they start doing the work. And so I'm curious as a husband, then when you know, there's all of this stuff being thrown at you, and you're probably wanting to give in just to have it stop. And it's hard to hold the space like that. But what did that look like for you to actually set boundaries? Like maybe practically, you know, she's asking you to do all this stuff and getting loud or getting angry, or was it sort of like a Hey, honey, I hear you. I'm not going to do that. Because of these reasons. There wasn't like, Did you walk away? What did that process look like to actually be that calm? Like rock really for her? Sure.

Chris Bailey 14:41
Well, you know, one of the first things is to actually listen and respond. Right, you know, so acknowledge that you heard what they said, and that you got it so that way they're not trying to now or you don't get it now I have to try to convince you. And now you're arguing about something that doesn't need to be argued about, you know, but also kind of being clear. Okay. You want me to go ahead and take care of that? That's fine. I'm happy to help with that. But I can help here or I can do it then. Or even that the tougher thing, because one of the things I had to learn is every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. And I wanted to say yes. And I didn't realize all the knows Oh, say, Hey, can you pick this up from for me, you know, today when you're out? Oh, yes, yes, yes. And then. So there's no to other things, right? We did not able to do it. And then if I'd get home, and I forgot it, what you know how busy I am? Well, the non man a man of integrity, I'm not letting my USBs my no be No, I'm not still, you know, standing behind what I'm saying. So instead, I had to learn how to say no, in a kind way, not a malicious way. No, no, because I don't want you to have it.

Jamie Bailey 15:44
And when he is talking about, you know, asking questions and making sure they're, you know, your your spouse is heard, which is what he would do for me, it kind of removed all my defenses. Because I'm arguing because I want him to hear me, I want you to understand, I want you to get this. And then he would show up and go. Okay, so I hear what you're saying this is this is what you want? Yes. Now I'm like, Okay, well, I've got nowhere else to go. Like he, I mean, that kind of calmness and listening to be heard and understood, that really backs the other person into a really good corner, to where it's like, okay, I have to let my defenses down. Because I now no longer have anything to defend. Yeah, and I have nothing I'm going for.

Chris Bailey 16:30
And if I could, instead of the analogy, or the idea, the word picture of backing into a corner, because that's normally what happens is we'll get into our corners, and we'll be very self protective. But it really invited the other person to come and meet me in the middle versus right, because because if I'm, I've got to demonstrate, because I don't know how many people are watching this video. So for those of you who are just listening, I'll explain to so if I'm standing just off to center on one side, and then you know, and I'm saying, well, it's not that big of a deal, well, then that encourages Jamie to stand on the other side, and keep moving away from me to balance it out to let her know, no, it's a big deal. I gotta be, you know, I got to amp up. And then so I backed off even more to balance that out. And you know, to try to minimize and so eventually, we're on the opposite corners. And the ring right, in my head, we're in a boxing ring. So you know, and now that's where we're defending ourselves. But instead, if let's meet each other in the middle, let's see if I if if I can let her know, look, I'm getting what it is that you're saying you don't have to, to try to convince me you don't have to sway the importance of the situation, then then it was inviting for her to come in and not have to battle to make her point.

Jamie Bailey 17:41
Yeah. And I think one of the things that helped as well, that this is one of the things that, you know, I mean, we're only as good as our habits. Sure, you know, and we say

Curt Storring 17:50
that, again, everyone listening to this, you have to get the habit stack that we talked about that all the time anyway. Pardon me? Yes. Continue. And,

Jamie Bailey 17:56
you know, we began to have conversations outside of the fights outside of the conflict. Yeah. And for him to like, follow up and be like, Okay, I know, that was upsetting for you. What happened? What was what was going on, because sometimes, in those emotional times, you lose, like, as soon as I would escalate, you lose like the access to your rational brain, your solution, thinking, you know, solving problem solving part of your brain, and like a 13th of a second. So you're not going to get anywhere like that. And so letting time go by to where, you know, calm can be entered in, and then that follow up that conversation afterwards, that says, hey, let's talk about this now. So we would always come full circle and start talking. Yeah, that's,

Chris Bailey 18:44
that's huge. This is why it's huge. Guys. Most of the guys that we've that we meet with not all but most of them. They're they're passive. Well, most of them are passive, a lot of them are either pleasers or of winners, that is not high on their list of things to do to circle back afterwards. In fact, whatever. In their mindset, whatever I need to do, we will not circle back, because that's just going to cause a new conflict. But that is so key, and being able to resolve any future conflicts because like I said, before, we have the same arguments, the brain loves patterns will have the same, it might not be the exact same, but it's close enough. In our work, you can see you can like take the same pattern and just stamp it on every on every argument the same things are gonna break down. So if you can start to understand that be intentional, be aware of where it's breaking down, and then how you can change the dance, then that's hugely impactful. Yeah. And very rarely what's going on us what's going on. So when you're able to talk about that stuff, then our wives you know, just using this as an example our wives are going but you didn't understand you didn't get it. And the husbands were like, Well, no, I did get I told you I understood I told you I got it the same? Because after all go Yeah, I get it. I get it. I know, I know. It's really just saying you could shut up now.

Curt Storring 20:12
That's how it comes across for sure. And yeah, that is so good. I tell the guys inside of the community, I call it over communicating for the guys, because our over communication looks like barely scraping the surface of a normal life. Right. And so I think like, what you're saying really supports that, I think and that's what we found is we always like to a tee, we had to come back. And it was so painful to have the conversations every single time because we ended up like they're opposing each other basically like, Oh, I think you reacted this way because of your other issues. And like, Okay, that was really conflict based. And it was useful for us. Now, hopefully not the way everyone has to go do it. Because I love what you just said, which is just circle back that pattern that we had, can we not do that? What does that look like? What do you need, and that's really encouraging. But here's the thing, like a lot of guys are in this work, and I hear from them, whether it's true or not, I'm just gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. They've done all the work and their wife is still not coming along. Their wife is stubborn, maybe their wife has a different idea of marriage. Maybe their wife has a different idea that she just wants him to be the one to blame. And it's been months, and she's just not budging. And she's digging her heels in. What do you say to those guys? Is there a point where you're just like, Hey, buddy, it's sort of it's too late. What can you do to like, really get in there? Can a man in the marriage like this lead to his wife? Other than just the actions he's taking with her? Can you be like, Look, babe, you're doing this thing, and it's causing strife in our family? We need to work on this, like, how does a man or even the other partner come around and be like, this is a problem? What are we gonna do about it?

Chris Bailey 21:43
Yeah, well, one of the things that we've recommended whenever you're running into these impasses, it's okay to reach out and get help. I mean, there's, there's people like ourselves, right? This is what this is what we do. I mean, you know, we've, we've gone to school, we've spent years not only in our own experience, right, that we're able to draw for what we spent years in school and practice and doing things. So I mean, there's a reason why I don't like work on my own car to a certain extent, right, I'll change the oil, I change an alternator, and I blew the major fuse. I will do that, again. You know, it just right. So there is there's professionals who that's what they do day in, day out, there's a reason why it's met just makes more sense to go to them. And you know, and seek this wise counsel, you know, which in old kings used to do that. So, ya know, it doesn't sound like it's bad thing. So, you know, so if that's, that's one part, then the second part, then is just a reminder that, you know, we're a team. And here's a desire goal that I would like to, for us to have. Do you have buy in for that goal? Is that something that you want? Or what is it that you're hoping to get for the family? So let's see if we can have some goals that we can move towards? What's Where's positive action that we can move towards, instead of sitting languishing in the place where we're

Jamie Bailey 23:00
at? Yeah, and I totally agree with that. Because I think one the first thing, you've got to make sure boundaries are being set. Because sometimes people don't change because they don't ever experience consequences for their behavior. That's true. And so and I mean, there are a lot of resources out there for boundaries and for learning how to set appropriate ones. You can't just blanket them because they are circumstantial. Yeah, so what count consequences should be, but you know, in, in our relationship, because I'm one like, once I started growing, I'm like, boom, gone, you know, I get it, I'm always going, you know, he'll dance around a little bit more and stuff. And like, I like to refer to myself as his hype mate. And I, you know, we hear from a lot of women like almost the opposite of what you're saying, their, their, you know, husbands are not changing. And their husbands are not doing all this not taking it seriously. I'm so for him, that I refuse to allow him to settle for that in his life. And that's the point I always try to make clear for him, is, hey, my intention is I want more for you. I want more for us. This is what I want to be traveling with you I want us to be healthy, I want us to be happy. I don't want us to have this anxiety or this conflict anymore. And so putting lead with those goals lead with those intentions and call out the strengths in your spouse to because even went like for him like he could say things to me like you are so tenacious and so scrappy in such a fighter like I would love to see you use that for yourself. You know, use that same tenacity because I see it in you. And so calling out those strengths and call it because I'm not going to defend against that. I am going to receive that and it compliments me. Right You know, and sometimes the compliments are uncomfortable, but you are speaking through life and truth over years. spouse. And so I would really encourage the boundaries, the consequences that come with them. And that encouragement and speaking life and sharing those intentions of this is what I want for us, babe, I don't want us to be like this, you're not happy. It's hard for me like I want more for us and then asking them, like, what can I do to help you? How, like, what do you need from me when you because that was one of the things he did for me. Because it took it takes a long time if you're somebody who's reactive, to stop responding, because it's a flip of a switch, and there's anxiety and angst and all of that. So for him to sit down with one of those side over communicating conversations, and go, Okay, when you get like that, when you get really upset, what do you need from me, you know, and some women or some, they're like, I need you to hug me and remind me that we're all okay, that's the stuff he needs for me. But if I'm all upset, Don't come near me. Like, that's the exact opposite of me, and then touch me. And it's like, you know, I need space, I need you to quit and chasing me, I need you to quit doing, I need you to give me time. So I can like calm down a little bit. And so finding out what do you need? How can I help you grow? You know? And is there any area where you still want me to grow? Because when they know you're willing, and they say, Yeah, you know, and that's where it's like, we are a team, and we have good intentions here. We've yet to have a couple come sit in front of us, who does not have the same shared goal for a happy successful marriage? Yeah, they all want the same thing. And if they have kids,

Chris Bailey 26:38
they want their kids to be exposed to a healthy model of marriage. Right? Right. And chances are, you know, because unfortunately, there's a lot of people who didn't necessarily have as healthy a model of marriage as they may have have hoped to. And they certainly want it better for their kids. Yeah,

Curt Storring 26:56
that that's, this is so good. This is already like one of the most useful podcasts we've done, because it's so practical, with like being on the same team like that, and having those conversations because that was one of the questions I was going to get to, which is like, what is the point here? Right? What was the ideal marriage? And for me, I think that would be like most of it, you got to be on the same team. And I think that even the guys that I work with, sometimes we get distracted by our own growth. And we forget that we're doing it for each other. And it's like, if both of you were on the same page. I think that's like, I build up my wife, but she builds me up and we're way higher than we would have been just trying to build ourselves up. And I think like that selfless sacrifice for the other with, like you said, the boundaries. And for me, that's been the magic. Is that been sort of for you guys as well. Oh, yeah. Yes, the

Chris Bailey 27:45
founders were huge. One of the one of the the great things that Jamie said to me and I, I repeat this, because it's was so impactful. She said, Honey, you gotta stop treating me like I'm some sort of ogre, you're gonna see things that are gonna make me upset. And it's okay, I'm a big girl, I'll get over it. So stop being afraid to say these things that might be upsetting to me, you know? So the idea is to saying things or no or, or taking a loving step and going look, this isn't the right time for us to make this decision for our family or for the budget, or for you know, the kids in which probably wait on this and and consider a different time. That's might not necessarily have been what Jamie wanted to hurt. Let me let me I have a lot of my pithy little sayings. But I love to say, one of my favorites that I like to share is we get good at what we practice. The problem is we tend to practice the wrong things and get really good at it. So what was happening is not only was I not practicing healthy boundaries, but I also wasn't practicing or letting Jamie practice getting over it. Yeah. Yes. So I wasn't giving her an opportunity to get over it because I was too, too afraid of her getting upset and how it would make me feel when she's upset, right? Because her freaking it would freak me out. It really was, it was a selfish thing. And I didn't recognize that at the time. But a lot of times us guys, you know that these emotions are scary. And you know, oh, big strong man emotions scary. You know, so it's, it's, so we we don't like to see that emotion and our spouse because it raises up emotions in us that we're not aware of. We're not we don't know what to do with and it kind of gets us all spun out. So you just need to calm down. So so in the idea of boundaries, because really the core of boundaries is boundaries about yourself, what limits you and where you end in somebody else begins. So I really had to recognize that that where Jamie is allowed to have her own motions, her own responses that don't necessarily have to affect me. They don't have to be, you know, strings tied directly to every time she jumps, I get dragged along, you know, so I had to recognize to loosen some that I do be conscientious, right, you know, so you know, if she got upset, it'd be conscientious and caring about that. But I didn't have to like, what, let me fix it real fast it yeah, oh, I

Jamie Bailey 30:23
needed the freedom, and we all need the freedom to be mad in our marriage. That's real, we all need to, you know, have the freedom to allow ourselves to have every emotion there is, you know, and sometimes anger is one of those now we want to, you know, be self controlled in those things. You know, I mean, just because we feel them doesn't mean we get the freedom to express them any way we want. But I need the freedom to know that, you know, what, I can get mad, and it's not going to send him into a tailspin. You know, because him being so sensitive, you know, for so long. It just really, it started damaging me, as well. And the more you know, to go off a little bit, the more passive he would become, the less I respected him, the less I respected him, because sometimes when I'm upset about things, I'm upset for not the wrong reason. But what was more upset, I'd rather be upset in the moment because we can't have this thing or do whatever the situation is, then him just go okay, yeah, that's fine. That's fine. And then all of a sudden, we're in financial ruin, you know, or whatever it is. And then I'm dealt with this, I, you know, I've been dealt this card, these cards have like, huge upset. And so I would lose respect for his passive and

Chris Bailey 31:45
yeah, and it's a trust issue, too. Mm hmm. I'm not being honest. I'm not I'm not being a man. I don't my character is not what you thought it was. My integrity is lacking. Yeah. You know,

Curt Storring 31:57
the, he's this sort of thing that still happens and should be expected to happen. It's just digested better these days. Like, are you still coming across things where you're like, I don't like that. And I love you, and I'm gonna get over it, or is it just like, you know, rainbows? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, I'm doing something

Jamie Bailey 32:16
wrong. Totally, still happens. But what happens is, you know, what's happening? Yeah, when it happens, you know, what's happening, and you know, how to repair it quicker. And so that's the thing, because we're still human, we're still selfish, we still have, you know, and that's one of the things I mean, are mortals being, you know, 30 years into this, there are so many stages that come with that so many different stages and hormones change your finances change, you know, you have little kids your crazy life for several years, and, and then you have, you know, teenagers who are talking back and you've got to transition every way you parented and different things. And then empty nesters your kids are leaving, that was a big emotional time. For me. And you have to that's one of the things we tell so many couples, you've got to get good at pivoting, you've got to get good at embracing change. And go ahead.

Curt Storring 33:10
How do you do that? Practically? Because that seems to me really useful. But are you like sitting down every year? Are you like having conversations about okay, we got to pivot? Like, what does that look like as you guys are sort of getting on the same page to be able to do all those pivots rather than just staying in inertia?

Chris Bailey 33:26
Yeah. Well, you know, in that's actually one of the things too, is it wouldn't I love when you said inertia is because it is easier to change when you're moving and motion. So you know, so yeah, if you're not moving anywhere and wind direction, then you're kind of stuck, it is harder to to pivot. But if you're start to create a pattern of communicating with each other, if you start writing that habit, if that happens, if that's habitual, if that connecting is it becomes habitual, where you are checking in on each other and more than just the what's the schedule for the kids today, you know, or might be working late, right, you know, seeing how they're doing, how it's affecting the other person. Because, you know, we're there, we're not just one by ourselves, you know, in a roommate situation, we are married, we are a team, where you know, we're in that one relationship. So we've got to nurture that and to respect that. And part of that team, is to make sure that the other person, you know, is doing well and is functioning so that with a team, you mentioned that you both as you and your wife were greasing up, lift each other up. And so you know, so you got to make sure that you're only as strong as the weakest part. Right? So where are they at? Yeah, am I loving them as I love myself? Am I making sure that I'm understanding their situation? And and what is needed from me? Am I being a resource to them? Right,

Jamie Bailey 34:55
right. So and that's the thing too, is, you know what we've done Throughout that conversation or in that constant communication, what we've learned is he knows when I'm off, he knows what that looks like, yeah, he knows when I get overwhelmed, I do specific things when I'm overwhelmed, or when I'm agitated, and when I see him, he'll get and this is how I'll know. And I'm like, Okay, we call it the big jerk, because I'm like, okay, the big jerk is out what is going on? Because he is the kindest, most patient, man, man, and then all of a sudden, every once in a while, get real snappy. And it's out of character for him. And I know, that's a sign of stress for him. And so when I see that in him, that's when I know, okay, the stuff that I used to lean away from. Now I know, that's when he needs me the most, is I see that irritability, I see that that snappiness he's doing and so I lean in and go, that's a sign he stressed out. So what's going on, and he will soon see me, you know, doing my little routines I do and we, we tend to not change those things, we tend to have specific patterns that we we repeat, when we're under stress when we're overwhelmed, you know, or when we're hurting whatever the situation is. And we recognize we know each other so well, that we recognize when something gets even just a hair off. And as soon as it does the things when I would be that way would normally trigger him to run away from me be like, Oh, don't wait the bear, you know, whatever it is, we're now he's like, oh, you know, what, what do you need? What's what's going on. And so we recognize those things. And so it really is in the continuous communication. And when you've gone through hard things together, when you don't avoid the things and you actually make it through conflict together, that strengthens your marriage. Because now you know, it's been tested and tried. And here we are. And when you know, we can withstand the hard stuff, you all of a sudden have so much security, and knowing you know what everything can be on the table with us. Yeah, because we've made it we've been tested and try it and we've made it and so things aren't scary, I can easily tell him I'm like, I am grieving because all of my girls just moved out of the house. You know, we're different things are going on and and he's a resource for me. And so that is such a big part of marriages. Naturally we go you meet my needs, you know, people get married, because you're gonna make me happy people get divorced, because you don't make me happy. That's not what it's about. It's how can I be a resource? For you? How can I make my spell spouse better? How can I love them even more than I love myself. And when you have two people in the marriage doing that, man that's fulfilling, that is good. And when you have opportunities, you're on the same team, but you're not playing the same positions all the time. And sometimes a player goes down another time, another one's getting that home run, and you just have all those different stages of life, and some of them are going to be homeruns. And other times you're just smacked in the face with the ball. You know, it just, it's different. But when you can learn how to embrace the changes, and make the pivots and just know each other.

Chris Bailey 38:08
Yeah, and share what you need, what's going on what's going through, hey, look, I can stand this a little longer this season. But we're gonna need to plan an exit strategy as far as how to get us out of this season and what to do for the next one. Yeah.

Curt Storring 38:21
Man, that is so encouraging, by the way, like that, having gone through the hard things together. And I think that's like, partially why I share some of the things I share, which is, it's actually awesome to be a dad, it's actually awesome to be married. Like, that's not the cultural narrative. And I like to share them because of what you say is like, nobody knows this. Like nobody, very few people, I think, have seen a marriage that works like that. I didn't know was possible. So I feel like when Natalie and I'm and again, you know, we've only been married 11 years, peanuts compared to you know, 30 years. And yeah, we've gotten like past this, this 910 year mark. And suddenly, it's like, I didn't realize this was on the other side of that, like, this is beautiful. It was like this mountain, we were climbing, we crested it. And there was just like, this glorious land on the bottom of this mountain like, yeah, the top of this mountain going like, wow, I didn't know this was here. Somebody should have told me about this, because I would have tried harder earlier. Rather than just like, Oh, we're sort of like trauma bonded, and we were just going to figure this out. I knew that was possible. Man, we would have tried harder. And I want everyone to know that. Like it is like you said it's so satisfying, right? And I just want that to grow and grow and grow because I can only assume that we're in like the first little bit where if we keep going up, there's going to be another even more glorious thing. And that brings me to what you guys just said about stages. I'm really curious about this. Because I'm like, things are pretty things are sweet now like between Natalie and I it's so good and amazing and so wonderful. And yet you mentioned there's different seasons of life. And we're very much aware of our season right now being it's crazy season. We've got a three a baby, maybe more on the way who knows what we don't about that, but it's just child season right now. And after that there's gonna be something else. So I'm curious if you guys saw, I don't know if there's like delineated seasons, or just like, things that you noticed along the way, going 1020 30 years, like, what what did you see stage wise?

Jamie Bailey 40:13
Well, there are different because everybody has their kids at different stages of life, too. You know, we had our we were done by 26, you know, so that we were young parents, but there tends to be just typical changes by the decades. You know, when you're the couple in your 20s, you are wide open, dreamin, you know, it's like, all this is possible, we can do all this, we're gonna change the world, we're gonna do all this stuff. And it's good. You know, it's like you, you want to have that little bit of denial. You know, I mean, because we need the world needs dreamers, you need to have a dreaming stage in your marriage, and then you hit that 30s. And that's usually when people are mostly all in with kids and stuff. And those are the years those are like, the workhorse years, those are now we're building everything that we want. Now we're getting like, okay, here were our dreams. Now we're like grinding, and I still have the energy to grow. Yes, we have the energy, we got our kids here now, were you making it through with them, and you're creating this life you want. And then you get into your 40s. And you get more changes? And you realize, like, Okay, I worked really hard for this, but I don't even want half the stuff that we tried for. And so then it becomes more of the how do we start, you're not slowing down, but you are realizing, okay, these things sounded really good. And they were great for that season. But my priorities have shifted again. Yeah, I don't really focus on them as much to take care of and as much to do and you you start wisdom comes, you know, when you're learning what really matters, and then you hit like the 50s, you know, which is where we're at just just squeaking in, you know, you hospitalized, you hit those years. And these are like the pouring out years. And so for us as a couple being able to go who what's the next generation? You know, who can we pour into? And that we circle back around and go, Okay, where are those 20 year olds? Where are those 30 year olds, who were in in the thick of it, and so you really have different purposes, kind of in your marriage, and so that focus naturally shifts. And the worst thing that can happen you hear like the men, you know, who were like out buying their Corvettes, and doing all this and, and everything. And it's like that doesn't that happens when men or women, you know, don't, because women don't want to age men don't want to age either. You see a lot of older divorce men, and they're with 25 year old women. And it's denial. It's denial, they're, they're 50, but they're trying to stay 25 They're trying to stay 30. And when you accept that, you know what? Life is different as the decades go by, and there's beauty to be withhold in every season. That's where that adaptability comes in. Because you can't behave like a 25 year old. Like, I'm not going anywhere at 8pm. Like, it's just me. Yeah, no, it's not happening.

Chris Bailey 43:06
Yeah, there's, there's a comedian who was like, you're like in her 20s? Like, you want to go somebody's like, Yeah, I'm up for everything. You know, in your 30s. It's like your will go out? Where are we going? Yeah. Can I drive myself? Yeah, can we drive ourselves? Okay, maybe we're up for it. Yeah. So

Jamie Bailey 43:21
you want to be able to embrace the season that you're in. Because if you allow denial to enter in, because there are some frustrating that frustrating things that happen, you know, bodies change, hormones change, you know, your physical mobility sometimes can change, finances can change all of that. And you've got to learn how to, you know, work at your best with whatever you've been given. And not be upset that at 45, you can't physically do what you could at 20

Chris Bailey 43:52
a certain amount of acceptance, that the ground gets harder the older you get. Just there's there's a law of physics. And by the way, now that I'm 52, I realized that if ever, I've been in a fight with somebody of my same age, they're being taught to step on their toes. Because you go down like a bottle of rocks.

Curt Storring 44:14
little piece of wisdom that I need, thank you so much. That's really good. And I love the acceptance piece of them. Because even for me, in the sort of mid 30s range, I'm like, Well, if I could just have it all now, that would be great. Don't have to wait. And if I could just sort it out now. And I can see it. And I know that it's like almost assured God willing, if I just do the work, like you were saying before the habits, if I put the habits in, I'm gonna get to this place, but I'm kind of like, well, if I could just do it now that'd be great and sort of stress not being there. That doesn't make any sense. And it's really good for me actually to hear this, that for you, you're gonna come and there are different and then fixes are gonna come and they'll be different. That's okay. You gotta manage through that and I think that just in itself as a human, and a married man, and just whoever, you're gonna have to go through those seasons, and that's nice to know, rather than always hoping for something different. And like, let me just double check. Do you guys have seven minutes hard stop now? Okay, because I just want to go through some of the more specific questions that we talked about or that you guys suggested, because I think I could go on for hours here. But I want to touch on a couple of the things. I know that you guys mentioned, men being avoiders or pleasers. And I come across this so much, because it's just the way most men are, I guess, we talked a little bit about what that looks like, how to challenge and how to grow in your lives in marriage. But the point of me taking it specific, is I wanted to hear more about like the specific work that you guys did. Because it's one thing to say like, Oh, I just, you know, put her first and then set some boundaries. And it's like, oh, sweet, like, I'm gonna go do that right now. What do I even do? And so I'm curious, we want to talk about the avoiders of the pleasers. Like, what does that look like? Why are guys there? How do you even start to be like, boundaries? It's okay, if other people have emotions, it's not my fault, like perfectionism, all that kind of stuff that plays into it. Any like, you know, 30,000 foot view in terms of guys actually doing the work?

Chris Bailey 46:15
Yeah, absolutely. You won't get a first off practicing, we got to do something, you know, it, you mentioned habit stacking, right, you know, one person change a day, right? I can only imagine, you've probably taught that too. You know, so get over the year for people haven't heard that 37% times better. So you know, you've got to be putting into place things that are going to watch, you are going to help you get towards the goals that you're setting for. So if I want to learn how to become a less passive, you know, I've got to, you know, to start to learn how to be calm, more assertive, I've got to share my thoughts and feelings and ask for what I want. I've got a practice that I've got to you mentioned, I love how you said that you got to over communicate, and even then it's probably less than what you were thinking that you're communicating. It's got like both you and I, you know, I know that other people have commented too. We speak quickly. And sometimes I've told slow down and I'm like, but I'm speaking soon. But it's still it's that gotta keep working on it a little bit at a time doing something intentionally gotta be intentional and doing something intentional. This week, this day, what am I going to do? Man, we stink with our emotions, right with with our emotional vocabulary and awareness, we've got to start to understand what our emotional states are what's going on. I've got another pithy little saying, if you don't deal with the fields, the fields will deal with you. So if we're allowing our fields just to run willy nilly, well, that was really that's great. Willie, but you're just running running wild, right, then they're gonna they're gonna show up in a reactive brain. And usually what that looks like is anchor for a lot of guys. Yeah. Anger, frustration, upset all them.

Jamie Bailey 48:05
And what can I say something real true. The premise behind it when you're talking about pleasers and avoiders, there's two primary things you want to know these are the filters for healing and for finding your way forward. pleasers, they no they're okay, when everybody else is. If my wife is happy, if my kids are happy, if whoever else, we're okay. That's how I know I'm okay. And so because of that, you've got to start doing almost the flip opposite. And learn. I've got to be okay, when I'm okay. And not I don't need to have them.

Chris Bailey 48:40
I'm doing the right okay, for the right choice. I

Jamie Bailey 48:42
gotta be okay. So you've got to if you're the pleaser type, that means you've got to like stay in it when somebody else is upset. And you're feeling like when you know, you've got to know the things that trigger you to, you know, pull away or to please and all that, and know, okay, I'm not going to do that this time. And this can be different for many people. And so for him, it was very much when I'm upset him just staying in the game and listening, you know, and staying engaged and not fumbling into please alternatives to get into fix it mode. Right? And so yeah, you don't want to do that fix it mode, because you're only I mean, that's not helping you grow at all. But if you're avoider, the opposite is almost true. It's pretty much I'm okay when I'm okay. I don't really give a rip what everybody else is doing. You can be upset and I don't, I don't care. Well, that means you need to start caring. You need to know you know what, maybe I don't care. Maybe I want to I want to live alone on an island by myself in this situation. So because I want to do that I now got to do the opposite. So you kind of learn and you change this mentality. It's like okay, what do I want to do most right now, that's to please or to escape and do the opposite. Stay in game Ah, lean in, not fix, let her be mad, you know, and not whatever it is. And so knowing that like the pleaser if they're okay, I'm okay. Nope, you got to flip that? Or that the avoider? If they're not okay, I don't really care. No, you've got to flip that. So those two, those are main common filters that a lot of men and women, you know, we find women in these situations as well. But primarily men get stuck in that in that pleaser mode or in that avoider mode.

Curt Storring 50:30
Right? Okay, so you need to be aware, first of all, like, here's why. And you can do that through thinking about it observing your own, you know, life journaling about it, presumably, and then just picture what you want to do, which is the opposite. And then you just have to do it right. And you have to be okay, failing. Is that true? Yeah, absolutely

Chris Bailey 50:46
had to be good to fail. You know, the analogy I like to use as you know, as bike riding, right, learning how to ride a bike, because people will get the wrong idea. With their goals. And the idea of riding a bike, they'll have the idea, oh, well, if I fall, then I, I'm failing at riding a bike. One of the things that we have three girls where I had a toddler girls, when I was teaching him how to ride a bike is first you have to get really good at crashing. Right, because when you go with once you get really good at crashing, then you'll you'll be able to be great at riding a bike. So you have to adjust what your definition of success is. Because if your definition of success of riding a bike is always staying up and never falling down, that every time you fall down, that's a failure. Versus if my my definition of success includes failing includes these crashes includes the you know how I recover from them, and to learn from them. Right, so you get it like I've used a mountain bike, don't do it so much anymore, because it's just not always the safest thing. But it's one of the one of the things you learned is if you get like you're gonna run into a tree is your hug it because you're gonna hit, you're gonna hit that tree, regardless at a certain point. So but if you hug it, you'll minimize the amount of damage. And so right, so there's that idea, okay, I've learned how to better navigate this upcoming conflict, and week more successful in keeping it from becoming something that it didn't have to become.

Jamie Bailey 52:09
Yeah. And I can say, as a wife, all day long, I'd rather see him fail and fail and fail than not ever try. All day long, all day long. And so those failures, like, you get so many points for failing, but you know, it's respectable, it's courageous, it's, it's great. Like,

Chris Bailey 52:32
I'm gonna share it a I'm gonna give away a secret to, to the guys who are listening, is if you're genuine, you got to be genuine. And you're trying to, you know, to communicate, connect with your wife, and you're wrong. As long as you're genuine, you'll still get points. That's right. That trying

Jamie Bailey 52:49
and caring enough to try matters so much, so much.

Chris Bailey 52:55
So the idea of that trying to get to understand, like we talked about earlier, you know, like going Hey, honey, well, you know, it really seems like that you're that you're really, you know, frustrated right now. And they'll be like, Oh, well, no, you know, and so you're getting points, and then they don't even usually give you the right answer. I'm not frustrated. I just really more disappointed. Yeah. So now you've now you know, bridged that gap. You're you're closer to each other. And you know what's going on?

Jamie Bailey 53:21
Yeah. Yeah. That's how to get good at failing.

Curt Storring 53:23
Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Thank you for that. And the next one that was on here was about emotions. And you touched on that, about getting good at emotions and being able to use the vocabulary. You can somebody resources for that, because that was a hard one for me.

Jamie Bailey 53:36
Oh, you can straight up Google a feeling wheel.

Chris Bailey 53:42
Which a lot of guys will go wait, I just do about the ones in the middle. I didn't know there's all these other. But but you know, and I don't know if I finished that was you because when we don't recognize the emotions, then they'll usually come out in our reactive brain usually in anger, frustration upset. But when we start to talk about them, right, we identify and we talk about emotions, we bring them up into our higher brain into our logical brain or upstairs brain. And then we can logically, you know, work with them. And when they don't treat us like puppet, they lose their power. Yeah, they don't knock us around, we're actually able to deal and process them.

Jamie Bailey 54:17
Yeah, because many men, they'll take all every emotion, and it morphs into anger, though, morphed into anger. And that's one of the things there are some common ones that men tend to feel. And we'll have this analogy, you know, when they get angry, you know, we're like, give yourself a gift. And what that is, is like every letter stands for something because see what's underneath your anger. Because chances are it's something something else.

Chris Bailey 54:40
Yeah. Because anger is a secondary emotion. And it's a self protective emotion. We don't like feeling these other things that's going to be vulnerable and a vulnerable fear hurt all this kind of stuff. And because of that, well I'm gonna go to anger. Yeah. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna protect myself with this anger, which is very offensive to the The person on the other side, right? And they don't. It's as a secondary emotion. They're not going, Oh, you look scared. Oh, I think I hurt your feelings. No, you're a jerk, right? And now you're offensive. And now we have this distance in this breaking relationship. And whenever we have a breaking relationship, bad things tend to happen, right? That's what kicks in our patterns that we keep falling into these dances is when we have this wood, it feels like there's a breaking relationship,

Jamie Bailey 55:27
right? And so if you take that primary emotion, if it is anger that you're dealing with that that gift is guilt. Lots of men feel guilty. If I say, Well, you know, did you do this? Well, no, I didn't. Well, now he's responding because he feels like he screwed it up. And all of that, or the is for inferiority, or inadequacy. Those are big feelings for men. And if they're left unaddressed, they will instantly morph into anger. And how do you know where you're

Chris Bailey 55:55
going? I know where I'm going. Yeah.

Jamie Bailey 55:59
Yeah, and then we've got the F, which is fear. I mean, that's, that's a big thing for men is feeling fear, fear and inadequate.

Chris Bailey 56:08
This that, because they're thinking, Well, I'm not scared. Well, you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed. You know, you're feeling this angst about this project or work or whatever. That's how it's okay. It's a so falls into the fear at category and it's your your created with emotions, it's okay to actually have them.

Jamie Bailey 56:25
Yeah, they're healthy. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's alright. The team, we gotta can't have a cliffhanger here for trauma, or hurt, you know, it's like that actually hurt. And so and so if you learn how to take that primary emotion that you feel most often, and then when that comes up, hit that pause button, go, Okay, what am I really feeling right now? Well, I'm feeling like I'm feeling inadequate, because her questioning may makes it sounds like she doesn't believe that I know what I'm doing. Well then just say, You know what, that I'm feeling a little inadequate right now. Do you not think I know what I'm doing? And most of the time, because that's a big one here. I'm like, No, babe, I'm just scared. something's gonna happen. Because we had a situation with a ceiling fan, fixing the ceiling fan, and I'm horrified that the house is gonna get caught on fire. And I'm asking him and asking him Do you know? And then finally, he snaps at me, you know, and I'm like, Why are you mad at me? Because in my perspective, I'm scared, something's gonna happen. He's gonna get electrocuted, or a fire or whatever. I needed reassurance. That's all I was asking for. But he didn't know to clarify that. And he's feeling like you're questioning me. I wouldn't be doing this. If I didn't know how to do it. Right. Men?

Curt Storring 57:39
Yes. How many times have I felt that? Yes.

Jamie Bailey 57:43
And so for him to be able, you know, if we were to flash forward or have that opportunity again, he's like, Hey, I know what I'm doing. I'm not gonna You're not worried about this. I got this. Yes. And so that's a habit like we have instilled is knowing reassurance, you know, and just being able to talk because that instantly came out as anger. Where if he would have just paused long enough to go, Okay, why am I getting mad at this? Because I feel like she thinks I'm an idiot, is why and now we can say, I feel like you think I don't know what I'm doing. And then I could say, No, that's not it at all. I'm just worried.

Curt Storring 58:18
Just expressing what you're actually feeling and can just like really clear the air. Can you imagine what someone can tell everyone this? Yeah, goodness, that actually happened the other day to me and Natalie. I was like, going to get something from Facebook marketplace. And I said around 630, but I had been texting with this person that ended up being seven. She's like, Oh, are you gonna leave? No. It's like, No, I'm gonna leave in a little bit. And then she's like, well, you're gonna miss it. Are you gonna leave now? It's like, No, I've got it. And she's like, you're really stressing me out? You're gonna leave now. That's like, you need to stop that. Because I've got it. Do you trust that? I've got it. She's like, Yeah. And I was like, okay, then don't say anything else. And I should have in the moment told her Hey, like you said, I've got this. I'm feeling a little bit inadequate. But it was just that thing where I was like, this is a trust issue now. And it wasn't even a thing. He just wanted to have that affirmation, that reassurance reassurance that everything was fine. So the same sort of things can come up in so many different ways. And just saying the feeling that's huge. And so many guys are like, Excuse me, you want me to say what I'm feeling now like you said before? They're just facts right? Like I usually I usually tell guys, it's like the the dashboard of a car. You got your to common or you got your gas tank here, your check engine light, something's going on. You should probably know what that is. It's not like a story. your check engine light coming on isn't like, Hey, idiot, your check engine light on because you're an idiot. It's like, bro, check the engine, and then do something about it. And the same sort of thing for me. I've learned long after I needed to, like same thing with anger, like what do i Where's the red light flashing in my engine, that I gotta do something with it, and then just see a word. And there's all these sayings about name it to tame it and all that kind of stuff. Feeling Do it. And those are very important for me to just remember to like, like I said before over communicate. And I want to be respectful of your time because we're already eight minutes over. And I'm really grateful for this. Anything that's like, on your mind with this conversation that we should end with, that guys should hear. Or if there's not, because I don't want to put you on the spot, let let everyone know where we can find you.

Jamie Bailey 1:00:21
All right. Well, I would just if I'm going to jump in here, Joe is be willing to do the work. Yes. Because the work to change is hard. But it's much harder staying the way you are. Yes. And so be willing to do the work. It doesn't matter how long it takes. Moving forward is still forward movement. You know, and you'd rather be working to move into go somewhere good and better than just staying stuck in mediocrity. Like, that's gonna take you nowhere fast. And so yes, it's hard. It's humbling. But man, it is so worth it. And it's never going to be as hard as staying stuck in mediocrity is so do the word do

Chris Bailey 1:01:08
hard on purpose. That's right. That's right. Do hard on purpose. That's an Instagram quote, what what you're doing now is hard. Do something else. That's hard on purpose. That's right.

Jamie Bailey 1:01:18
Well, so we do have a whole lot of resources and podcast episodes that do talk about, you know, avoiders and pleasers, we've actually got a new book coming out and Father's Day, it's a devotional for fathers, husbands and dads. And so that will be gone. But you can find any resources we have and you know, your listeners are more than welcome to email us ask us questions, they can find us at our website and all our social media platforms are on there, but it's expedition marriage.org

Curt Storring 1:01:47
Amazing. I'll put that in the show notes Dad.Work slash podcast for anyone listening and man, I'm just, I'm so blessed by this conversation. It's so encouraging and I'm on fire with all of this kind of stuff to just like, continue to do in my marriage and continue to grow and just to see that it can continue to get better because as I observe you, I mean, maybe you're just like really good on camera, but you guys look like you having a great time together. And like you guys are like arm around each other. This is so encouraging for me. And I just thank you guys so much for sharing this with us because it's gonna bless a lot of people. So thank you guys. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure to be on the show.