Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the Dad Work Podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of dad work. This is episode number 92 with the mythic masculine and what myths can teach us about fatherhood, with my guest, Ian Mackenzie, we go deep today talking about what we can learn as men from myth and the mythopoetic Men's movement. What we as a society have forgotten from important myths, like the split between men and women. Understanding that toxic masculinity is in fact immature masculinity, elements of a mature mindset and how lack of a father figure or having a toxic father growing up can affect you as a man, partner and father. Why self healing and doing inner work as a father as crucial, being more involved in your children's lives as a father to build and sustain your relationship from now until the future. Ian Mackenzie is a filmmaker and writer who lives on the edge of the Salish Sea with his partner and young son. for over 13 years he has been tracking the global emergence of new culture. From the desert of Burning Man to the heart of Occupy Wall Street, he has sought and amplified the voices of visionaries, artists and activists who have been working toward planetary system change. He is most known for his films sacred economics, amplify her occupy love, and last nation road. Ian is also the creator of the mythic masculine podcast, as well as the school of mythopoetic and a rad dad facilitator. You can find links to all of that in the show notes at Dad.Work/Podcast guys we're gonna get right into this episode today. In reminder if you don't follow me yet on Instagram, please make sure to hop over there DadWork.Curt DADWORK.CURT that's where I'm most active would love to get you following us over there, start the conversation, you can DM me anytime I'm typically around and ready to respond to meet you, the listener, and I appreciate you. I really, really appreciate you guys listening. And honestly just being here, because no matter what I say, there's a lot of great stuff from the guests we have on the show. And even if there weren't which there is, even if there weren't the fact that you are here doing the work to become a better dad is amazing. There are very few dads even though I work with so many of you guys, there are still very few dads compared to the amount of fathers in the world who are doing this work to show up better in their families. And you're one of them. So I just want to say, excellent job. Keep up the great work and thank you for letting me be a part of it. Without further ado, we'll hop into this episode with Ian Mackenzie.

All right, dads, we are back for another amazing episode of the data work Podcast. I'm here with Ian Mackenzie, who is a filmmaker. He's the host of the mythic masculine podcast. He's a co founder of the School of mythopoetic. And E is a rad dad, facilitator in the men's group space, and has been a long time in sort of this space is from what I understand with mankind project and other things like that. And so in first of all, thank you for taking the time, I'm very excited about this because it's close to my lineage, which I don't actually know all that much about. So I'm going to be digging in for my own purposes. And just thank you and welcome. Good to be here. Great. Yeah, so I just for a little bit of background here before we get into sort of too deep into into myth, if you will, or into mythology is I had a man on the podcast who runs hero rise archetype decks, Isaac codec, and my question to him, like I find it fascinating. And I'd love to be able to learn more in a practical sense, but for the listeners of the podcast, I was like, Man, can you explain why this even matters? Because it's hard to put it into our everyday practical life, potentially. And yet, I have seen how you can do it. And so I wonder if you can walk us through a similar process with, with myth, and with with all of this sort of background in history of story and why there actually is great meaning, rather than simply being something that you know, people used to do a long time ago. Could you can we start there.

Ian MacKenzie 3:47

Happy to this may be a bit of a long unpacking, but we got a bit of time. So yeah, here we go.

You know, it's interesting to think of the word mythology, well, usually short form is used myth, right? And up until I'd say probably the last decade, really, in terms of the reclamation of that word, myth typically meant something that isn't true. Right? They say, Oh, what do you mean, that's a myth. But as the root of the word mythology, it starts to mean something different. And I think it's important to understand this sort of the roots of reclamation that have run through, I'd say, at least, you know, since the second wave feminine vest, movement, which is really where this this this bloom of what became the mythopoetic Men's movement came from, you know, in my podcast, the mythic masculine one of my intentions was actually to go back and understand deeply like what how did this happen or what what came about where did it go because perhaps like you as well, I discovered this movement or the threads of this through the book iron John, which, you know, is sort of one of the main Bibles I suppose, of the of this movement, and of course, King warrior magician lover being another big one, but I I was really curious after I found it, I was like, wait, what? How did I not know about this? Right? And at the time, I was like, 3541 now, so I was really like, curious, like, Why hadn't I found it? Like, why wasn't this the thing? Clearly, you know, given to me when I was 20, or whatever it was, but I had to discover it myself, actually, through a fascinating story after my grandfather died. And I'm gonna go into that story. It's a it's a longer tail. But I'll just say, typically, people seem to find that book through through mythic means, right, you might say. And so for me, the podcast was a way of one being curious about, like, how did this happen? Or where did it go? And like, what were the roots of this movement? So I did actually go back and interview people like Michael Meade, who was, I think, was Martin Shaw, who called him one of the one of the three headed Hydra of the men's movement, alongside Robert Bly and James Hillman, right. And James Hillman has passed for some time, and, of course, Mr. Bligh, this last year, which, which resulted in a sort of outpouring of reminiscing and you know, praise for this man, who was already sort of Titan in the poetry world before he turned to men's men's work and mythic poetry. But all that to say, in some ways, it was a, it was a great sort of gauntlet thrown towards men from women in the second wave feminist movement. And I've sort of verified this by talking to Bill cloth, who's actually one of the founders of MKP. Who, who really found himself at the time, I think it was sort of maybe late 60s or 70s, in this upheaval, right of women reclaiming their own power and potency. And there needed to be some kind of concurrent rise from the men just be like, well, what are you gonna do, right? And so he sort of took that back and ended up with two other men. And they kind of came to this sense of creating this this wild man weekend, right, which is, you know, with a nod to Bly and the whole wild man archetype, which, you know, has since become a kind of mythic, or it isn't mythic figure. But it was interesting with Bill at the time that he said, they wrote lie. And they actually said, hey, you know, we created this mythic, you know, or we created this men's weekend, and you're calling it the wild man weekend. And apparently, he wrote back to them. And he was like, don't call it that.

Because I think he understood that the media would have a heyday, right? And they did. Michael made, it said, stories of, you know, early days of this man's work that, you know, they'd go out to, I think, the trees and Mendocino. And he would have a yearly retreat for men's work. And at the time, you know, early days that there would be, you know, journalists like camped in the parking lot for when the men came out, and would say, you know, what's going on in there, the secret of, you know, men's movement, and Michael was like, well, it's just soul work. You know, it wasn't anything sort of grander than that. But it was a deep work that needed a kind of protection, certainly, because I think, you know, male vulnerability is still a very difficult thing for the culture at large to, to handle, right. But you know, it's such a weird time when men are asked to be more vulnerable, except there's very few spaces or even capacity to receive male vulnerability. Like, it tends to make people really uncomfortable. I mean, especially women as well, even though they, you know, clamor for it in some cases. Anyway, all that to say, so, miso, the mythopoetic movement was really this, this braiding of both the reclamation of poetry myth myth as, as story but story that illuminates both one's internal world as well as the collective moment. Right. And this is, to me, what I've come to understand is what myth is, you know, aside from this idea that oh, yeah, so what we used to do is sort of nostalgic technology or something, but the way I see it is the capacity to see and to speak and to understand Mytho poetically means almost as if, let's say, you're in a room in a, I don't know, high security vault or something, right. And you've probably seen those spy movies or Mission Possible, when they, the main character will say, drop into the room and maybe think like, oh, there's no security, right? Of course, you know, sent senses there is. And so maybe they blow some chalk right into the air, or like some other substance. And then poof, right, you can see all of the laser beams, you know, through through the building, or through the room. And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, now you know how to navigate. And so to me, mythology, well understood is like that chalk that is, you know, thrown up, like dust in the air. And it illuminates a lot of unseen forces that, you know, prior to that people just think, Oh, it's just stuff that's happening, or, like, there's no mythic imagination to interpret meaningfully, what what is going on. And so that's why the sort of practical application of mythology is so vital, because without it, it's like, we're really hampered in our capacity to really understand what's going on and what to do about it.

Curt Storring 9:42

Perfect, are really like that. Yeah, that's one of the things I've stumbled across recently is Jordan, Jordan Peterson's lectures on the Bible. And what he says about that, which I thought was very interesting was that it's almost truer than fact. You know, it's so inherently fundamentally true that we just get it kinda like a Shakespeare play. There's no, there's no fact. And it's fiction. And yet these are deep truths. And there must be there for something in us, almost on a soulful level. And I love that work that word soul work. You know, I try and take that into my own groups is what kind of work can we do on the soul? And are there ways then to, to read this, to practice this to start diving down and use this as a tool, because what I like to do on the show is, is give men, mindfulness tools, practices, things that they can do to become more authentic, to align themselves with a man and the father they want to be. And so I'm hearing this going like, yes, this makes so much sense. But like, am I gonna have to go read, you know, like Beowulf or something like, what does it look like to do the work with myth and with mythopoetic movement?

Ian MacKenzie 10:46

It's interesting, you bring up their wealth as well. I mean, I'm not sure if you saw but we did Beowulf actually in the School of Mathematics about two months ago. Yeah. And it was quite a really rich time with the men, many of them had read it, actually. And, you know, I'll say there were there was a challenge though, with, for example, iron, John is told by Robert plies, perhaps many of your listeners have read or should should read that. Bly spends a lot of time I think, what's called exegesis, you know, doing this commentary, right on, on the story. If you just read the story straight up, right. You might be like, okay, so what, but Bly really does that labor, right? And then you're able to say like, oh, wow, you know, yes, you know, understanding, you know, the room for the darkened father or the, you know, ascending boy, and like, all this stuff now starts to really show itself. And so in that sense, yeah, it's helpful to have a skilled practitioner do a bit of translating for you. This is also why, again, it can be tough just doing it alone. And by doing it with others, in particular, in many ways, is the truest way of working with story. Right, like I I, you know, since that, probably, since, you know, the oldest human endeavor is probably storytelling in there somewhere. And it was probably done with other people. Right, so, so sort of being alone and trying to decipher it yourself. You know, it was pretty good, certainly, but there's something else that happens when you do it with others. And they, you know, people say, Oh, this is what stands out for me actually, just reflecting images back from a story, right? Oh, this is what, you know, triggers in me. Somebody else says, Oh, wait, that reminds me of, you know, this and my story and right, it starts to show itself. So I guess what I want to orient the listener to a sense of, you noticed, it matters how much of the context you're actually working with story than it is necessarily the content of the story. Right, like that. That's a pretty important element, as well. And then I'll just say that working with stories isn't mysterious, because, you know, in some ways, it's like inviting a being or something into your life. Right, that by being faithful to the story, and having it work on you. So I'm a little caution, cautionary about this idea of tool, like, using stories as a tool, because sort of like, you know, you are the one, you know, using the object of the story for your, your own endeavor, as opposed to inviting according and the story to have its way with you. And you'd be surprised that when stuff starts to happen, right, you might say, Oh, that scene where you know, the road of ashes, or dipping the finger went to dinner on the pond, like, wow, it's just such an interesting image, like, you know, where it has that happened in my life or something. And then you might stumble into a moment where you're like, Whoa, is this the story now? Is it happening now? Right? And you wouldn't have noticed, though, if you hadn't been working with the story at the time. So in this sense, it's like a, it's a it's a mediation or it's a it's a conversation with the liminal with the other world that you know, requires you to proceed as if it's true. And you know, it you said the word true. And Jordan Peterson's, you know, lecture series, I've listened to some of them as well. And I understand, I think, yes, that's what he's getting at Stephen Jenkinson, as well, who had been a student of for many years, he said, something like, you know, facts aren't really that useful in the sense of what is to understand what's true, he said, Because sort of a greater authority of truth or to what is true is something that keeps happening. Right? And if something keeps happening, then you know, it's true, versus idea of sort of a fact, you know, of, you know, this or that date, or whatever it is. And that's like an older understanding actually, of things that have certain heft and weight is because they keep happening.

Curt Storring 14:19

Okay. Pardon me? Yeah, thank you for the the tool analogy sort of correction there, because I do like being steeped in that, almost letting it run its course and slowing down. And when you're doing this inside of school of mythopoetic x and when you're having conversations on your podcast, like, what is it that you're trying to get out? Really, because I know you said you wanted to figure out like you know where this comes from? It's this reaction to second wave feminism. There's something in men that needs to rise up and to get there. But like, Are you searching for anything beyond just general truth? Is there something there that you pick a story if you will, to get Got something specific out of it? Or like, how do you approach what you're going to read who you're going to interview how you're going to interact with this particular story? Or are you just simply open?

Ian MacKenzie 15:11

Certainly, it's a dance between them. Right? Like, sometimes it's Yeah, somebody's, you know, writes me and says, Hey, I'd love to share this on the podcast, you know, and I'll just have a sense of it, right? Probably like you with guests, hey, this might be a good fit, you know, in terms of the actual conversations themselves, definitely, there's this dance between structure and flow. Or you can say structure and emergence, right, which is a very necessary movement between those because, you know, like, any ritual space, if you have too much structure, it's too rigid. It's too strangled. Right, like nothing really interesting can happen, because you're just sort of, you know, walking through a list, right, a list of questions, let's say, but if it's too much flow, right, I'm sure you've listened to your conversations, which are just too open ended, right? You might say, Well, what do you want to talk about? You're like, oh, no, you want to like, so, you know, to have both is actually, I think, a really necessary art art of a conversation. And inviting in, right that surprise, that emergent quality, which is what I use to define that, that sense of, you know, getting somewhere which you could not have possibly gotten without those ingredients present. You know, like genuine curiosity, genuine willingness to track different threads and allow them to unfold and take us to, you know, interesting places. So that's a quality I tried to bring in the conversations, but it's also a quality to understand like, what are the stories and the invite by story to the listener might say, Okay, what sort of like specific stories? And yes, that's part of it. One could look to you again, ancient myths, like you mentioned Beowulf or Gilgamesh, right, or other stories that have certain deeply rooted influence on the now even though most people don't know it. Right. And this is the function of story that is beyond a kind of, I don't know, right, like the consumption of story, which is what Hollywood's done, right, which is a sort of story is something to entertain you, as opposed to the stories or the myths that have become so deeply the substructures of the culture, that they don't understand that they're in them anymore. Right? They don't understand they're in the story. And, you know, I might be misquoting this, but it was John Perkins actually wrote the book, Confessions of an economic hitman. But he tells a story about meeting a tribe, I believe the South American might have been the Kogi actually tribe, who had said to him and others to say, you know, you, you have to change the dream of your civilization. Like, that was like their message to the west or to the modern world, right, as they were coming out for the first time of the jungle after, you know, a long, long time, because they realized, like, oh, you know, it doesn't matter. We can't exist on our own, because they're, you know, they keep encroaching this modern culture. And they said, the message was, you have to change the dream. And by dream, even, you could also read that as, you know, the mythology, the undercurrent, the stories of the civilization, which perpetuate all of the actions, right, the overtaking the decimation of the biosphere, the fragmentation of culture and society. Right? All of these come from, like the consequence of the wake of certain stories that have influenced generations before.

Curt Storring 18:22

Yeah, we're gonna go. Okay, so the thing that I want to get to next is, before we get into to fatherhood, specifically, but you said sort of not even knowing that we're steeped in these stories, or where the where we even come from as societally, culturally, whatever. And so perhaps we can go into what are some of those things that we have not noticed to such an extent that we're now suffering, as a society as a culture and almost in a sense of like, what have we left out? That really shouldn't have been left out, or that really should not follow from a society based on these important almost so called True myths? Does anything come to mind?

Ian MacKenzie 19:06

Well, certainly the classic the Garden of Eden, right is I'm not I'm not a super biblical scholar, myself, as well. But this one has been touched on a number of my conversations on the podcast and other other scholars. Particularly I think there's a conversation with Jane Caputi, who's a sort of feminist academic, an incredible conversationalist as well and that one is called the Anthropocene is a motherfucker. And that's the name of her book actually as well. But what she means by that Anthropocene right at the age of the age of the human, but even more than that, the age of man and by man now capital M, in the sense of, you know, not just general men but but man and if you understand what I mean, and in that story we touch upon really what has been a significant I don't want to call it like the the consequence of a story, in this case, the Garden of Eden where I mean think most people know the details. But the snake sort of entices them to eat the apple. Well, it's the woman who's gets blamed right for enticing the man to eat the apple. And then they experience I think it was like the, the tree of knowledge or they, you know, they receive knowledge that essentially predicates are precipitates their fall from the garden, right, which is the sort of original utopian state. And often that's also sort of inadvertently blames women for being those that enticed right men from their utopic state. And that in like, the other ways, has cultivated a culture whereby women are seen as inferior or resented. But even more than that, though, there's a, you could almost call that a psycho split in the culture between Eve, which is the light, sort of understood just like the subordinate, feminine, right? Yeah, the sort of the one, the way I describe it is the girl that you take home to your parents, you know, sort of classically, and then Lilith, right, which is actually the woman who that predates Eve, that I mean, you may or may not know, the story, but there's versions where she essentially exists first with Adam, and she gets a little too, she looked too wild for him, really, you know, she she tries a mountain at one point, and that when they're having sex, and he's like, wait, what do you mean, I'm on top? And he actually ends up essentially leaving, because because she feels Dishonored, you know, by by this case, Adam? And so in his grief, you know, God says, Okay, well, fine, I'll be a rebel make Eve as this, you know, next version, you know, number two, but that set co split, it runs through the entire culture to this day. And how it plays out often for men is that, you know, we have this inability to actually integrate what I call the mother, in the median. Right, and, and how it looks like, again, is the surface desires of the expectation and the projections that women have, you know, to be in society in a certain way, and how they, you know, how are they acceptable, right, and then all of the women that show up in the dark on the screen, you know, in your basement or whatever porn, you know, pornography, especially, and like that that's hidden, right? That that's actually no, that's subterranean. That's not accepted. But this other, you know, woman is, and yet women are supposed to, you know, have both of these to be, you know, whole is like they gotta be both, which is very difficult for, for women to do at least trying to contend with men's projections of that. And so, again, me too, is just simply a sort of collective archetypal moment of the feminine and women saying no more, like no more predation on us, right? No more predation on the feminine by what I would call the tyrant king archetype, which is essentially lost connection to their own feminine essence, and becomes our predates it if that's the word on on women. And so again, this is why, if you don't really understand the mythic significance of something like me, too, and the historical arc of that, you might, you know, you will misinterpret the dynamics at play. And then we'll miss even other opportunities in which to actually come together and like integrate actually this deep wound, which to me is part of it is exactly like I said, like going all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

Curt Storring 23:16

Okay, and it almost reminds me of, I think you mentioned before, like, we are men are being asked to be vulnerable in one sense, but still almost put into the so called Man box. And the other sense, there's no place for us to sort of come together and the wholeness. And it's almost as though there's a split in in both sides of this. In the feminine. We've got the split in the masculine, and you mentioned something as well, which is the tyrant king, and I am very interested in the the immature, masculine in terms of the King warrior magician, lover archetypes, and how that plays out today and what people call masculinity. And I wonder if you have thoughts on that, because I see guys saying, you know, masculinity is toxic? Oh, no, it's not. But I think that the masculinity that we're calling toxic is simply perhaps simply but in large part, immature boys psychology, if you will, of the masculine is almost a perverted sense of the masculine. And so am I am I off base on that? Is there more to the story? What do you think about the so called toxic masculinity simply just being the immature version thereof?

Ian MacKenzie 24:19

Well, we're, this is a this is a really interesting point. And this is also where the my journeys through the mythic masculine have been really instructive to me, because I feel like I had to go to other wisdom holders and ancestral lineages to actually understand in a way what are the missing pieces? Because essentially, what you've identified and I think is true is that what we see on mass is immature masculinity, right at play masquerading as, as mature. And at the same time, then, so what is the response to that right, it's one to, to shame and to punish toxic behaviors, which on the one hand, You know, can be necessary, certainly. But at the same time, we're then asking men to also mature, but we're not giving men the structures to actually mature themselves, like culturally speaking, right? Because then we're left to a sort of personal growth our way towards it, right, which is, which is really what this mill mania is for personal growth these days. But it's good nature in the sense in its noble endeavor. And yet, that was never, I should say, Never. But I mean, it's, it's not meant to be a personal endeavor ever. If I can say that. And, you know, a lot of the work that's growing up around, of course, mankind project, I mean, I've connected with sacred sons, and, you know, here the work you're doing, you know, I saw a line you said on your Instagram of, you know, fatherhood is a community endeavor, you know, something like that, it takes a village to raise a father. Yes, like all that stuff to it speaks to a kind of structural regeneration, which is actually, you know, the real thing that one can be the quest to generations to come. But it also is, like, the most vital and necessary component of living out a kind of maturing process. And I'll just give one example. There's a indigenous scholar and your fascinating fellow Taiye tell ya, yeah, gay, Alfred is his name. And he's Mohawk. And he talks about how, just like, what is accountability within his sort of social cultural framework in his peoples, and the, at least for the Mohawk, or the story he told was, you know, you can't, you can't have true accountability unless you're like living amongst the people. Right, because then you're getting these feedback loops in a, you know, ongoing way that actually binds you to a sense of responsibility, right. But we, outside in the modern culture, we live in a, in a way that you can mostly, you know, live your life, sort of devoid of the consequences that you're inflicting on others. I mean, I particularly think of things like, you know, on the internet, where you can be mostly anonymous still, or, you know, large cities where, again, you don't really have these, these sort of structures of accountability, that guides you through that process. And often it falls in the nuclear family, in terms of, you know, raising youth. And, you know, I have a young son who's three and a half, and, you know, what I'm recognizing for me is yes, you know, I gotta keep doing my work, certainly. But at the same time, I need to have built relationships with enough men in my life and in my sphere, you know, that owe him enough over time, as well as have their own chops to come for him when he's 12 1314. Right, and then the other boys, and take them out to the woods or whatever it is to bring them to that sort of necessary threshold, as I wish to be for their boys, right at some point. And so again, they were falls on me to, to craft that the depth of those relationships, to be ready for that moment, and I need to be ready for them.

Curt Storring 28:00

Oh, that is a wonderful bit of responsibility on a father, rather than simply holding everything and putting it all together, like the responsibility to grow the friendships and the relationships with other men in the community, so that they can bring your own son through a rite of passage, that is an intense responsibility. And that is, I see that in my own life, too, is you know, it's been hard for me to go out there and, and make friends because I was reflected back, of course, in men circle, you know, I was not showing up in a way that was vulnerable enough, if you will, to allow men into my life. So my, you know, external veneer of perfection, which goes back to you know, wanting to be a nice guy wanted to fit in, everything has to be perfect, was actually stopping me from creating these relationships and what a tragedy that would have been, you know, and so my own work now, will, we talked about this all the time on the podcast on Instagram, our work as fathers is, you know, on ourselves, to become a better father, you have to become a better man. And that's such an incredible just challenge to put out there for men like who in your life could breathe adulthood masculinity into your sons, who's going to take them away? Who can spend time with them now, and that's where I'm trying to build. So I mean, I'm welcome and open to more suggestions on that for sure. And I wonder now, if we should switch the gears a little bit to go into fatherhood. Or if there's more here that you'd like to unpack just on the last point before we move on.

Ian MacKenzie 29:24

I'm happy to head to fatherhood I'm sure it'll show up. Wherever we may head.

Curt Storring 29:28

Okay, excellent. So y thing that I wanted to get to, obviously is like your experience, but before we get into that experience, perhaps you can even bring us along into how you were thinking about this based on the work, but also from the idea of, you know, what have you learned of fatherhood through, you know, the myth, the mythology that you've studied and this work that you've been in? What is the fatherhood archetype that you're aiming for? What can these books tell us? And also, I think it might be interesting to go into the limitations of father which We touched on just briefly, but I'm thinking about the man of the boy, having to leave the Father, I'm gonna steal the key from the Mother, you know, all this kind of stuff. So let's just go with a broad, I guess for now, discussion of fatherhood as an archetype in these myths, and then how you've applied that, at least in your own thinking in your own life with your son.

Ian MacKenzie 30:20

What comes to me is a book I discovered about a year ago through a listener, which is called Beyond the hero by LNB, Chinon and it's pretty unknown. I mean, maybe more. So now he's I did an interview with him after that. But it basically he's a fellow from San Francisco is a youngin. psychologist, and he wrote this book, somewhat around the same time that Bly was writing iron John. And he got very curious about sort of what's beyond the sort of initial initiation, right, which iron John in some ways is understood as, essentially the boy to man initiatory period. And he was interested of like, well, what's after that, you know, for later life, like sort of middle years of men. And the book itself is, is fascinating. It's well done, it's contains a number of stories that speak to this, this time of life, and invites a number of really interesting takes on one that stands out for me in particular, is, he talks about fatherhood as essentially, one as a, as the initial presence of the Trickster for a child, in that, you know, mother is, you know, both physically and archetype really this sort of Source of all nourishment, and, you know, the, you know, absolute goddess herself, you know, I see it in my son as well, you know, that that is like, she has everything right to him, especially in those early years. There's almost no separation, right? Between them. I mean, it starts, certainly through the birth, but even for the for they call it fourth trimester, right, it's like, there's still very, almost like one being still. And then of course, there's this process of, you know, over time, taking more space and this sort of differentiation, but I can see it, how much she still represents to him. And that's, that's great, actually, right, that's sort of, I think, evolutionarily was wisdom. And the Trickster in this case, the father, therefore, represents a kind of visitation, which, you know, depending on the the situation at home, and, you know, certainly there's no all everyone's all one thing, you know, parent because a mother can certainly father and has to at some points, right, and a father can mother and needs to mother, at certain points as well. But the father, in this case, in that constellation often is this one that visits you know, less, okay, or more occasionally, you know, home from work, and I see this right, I get home from work, a Papa right now, and I get tackled, and all of a sudden, I'm this, you know, interesting character that can sort of bring a new energy. Whereas the days in this case, it was spent, you know, in play and connection, certainly with mom. And then, you know, I'm sort of mysteriously off again, you know, the next day. And that's not to say, I'm not around that much. I mean, we do sort of four days, three days, sort of as the main focus, I do have a lot of time with him. But I do see that energy of this, this sort of trickster, you know, show up. So that, to me, is an interesting take on like the function of father. The other thing for me around fatherhood is the the one that sort of necessarily, I mean, forces is kind of a strong word, but advocates or continues to bring forth that distancing from mother, so the boy can join the world. Right, like, There's something I've noticed that something wrong, I mean, it started, of course, even around ending breastfeeding time as well, right. Like, that was a pretty significant moment where the, you know, it was clear that, you know, mom couldn't do it, and this kid was maybe, right, but it just would be so much harder for mom to do it, because it goes against all of her instincts to like, you know, not go to the crying baby. And just give him what he wants. And yet at the same time, in this case, it was really just destroying her own health in the case where, you know, the sleeping habits, and you know, I didn't know about any of this stuff, right? Prior, I was like, what, isn't it a couple of days, and they're good to go. But no sleep training took like six months to a year, and it's still right, and he's three and a half is still just an interesting, you know, challenge. And yeah, you're nodding your head. So most dads, I think, would know, but the point is that, so I became essentially the the almost compassionate enforcer of boundary. Right. And this is an interesting thing to wonder about it. What is fatherhood in this case, and of course, it's it's many things, but as one particular function,

even, you know, even mythically or modern in modern context, I think is that, you know, the father would cut the umbilical cord. Right. Again, this is like a really key moment of a kind of, you know, again, enforcing separation necessary separation, but compassionately, right, hopefully, because it is really challenging, of course, for a young being to be continually, you know, in that process of Separation, but it's necessary because we know what happens when that separation doesn't happen. And I did a podcast with a fella named Ivan scholem from Norway believe he does reclaim your inner throne is his body of work. And fascinating fellow. And he said some pretty challenging or sort of bold things in the podcast I had with him. But the the title of it is called videogames violence and healing the shadow lover. And what that was about really was, you know, there had been a mass shooting around the time again, it might have been Colorado or somewhere. And, and that sort of influenced some of our conversation. But you know, again, often these shooters are young men, right? feeling deeply disconnected from any sense of purpose, any sense of their own meaning in the world. And it's almost like this last ditch effort to be somebody, right comes forth in this these, you know, horrific acts of violence. And oftentimes, yeah, they're like lonely in their basement, or they're, you know, just completely glued to their computer screens, like these classic sort of images. And one way to think of it is that there, they still haven't psychologically left the world of the mother. Right? This is something that sort of sort of young and take on things. They haven't left the house of the mother. And so they're stuck in this sort of entitled, place of, well, the world should be there for me. Right? And when it isn't, there's this sort of resentful grievance that develops and of course, it even spills over and women and the thing is called the Insell. Right Movement, which is the involuntary celibate, which is basically men that aren't able to find that connection. And then turn that resentment into, again, acts of violence or resentment against women. And, again, like I could see where that can develop. And not always certainly, but I think Peterson even talks about this, but like one of the strongest indicators of delinquency in men is the absence of a father figure. Right? Apparently, I think it was even not even specifically about that father figure but just if there was one or not, right already created a some sense of, I don't know, modeling, or boundaries, or all these things, which are actually really necessary. Elements of the mature psyche, right, of a mature being. And so for me, you know, all of those things seems to constellate around like, what is the medicine of fatherhood? Which is the, the tough gifts to the child, you know, but at the right moments, from a place of compassion,

Curt Storring 37:21

the tough gifts? Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I've been sort of contemplating lately, what is my role, because briefly, in my story was I was the worst thing in my children's lives, I was just terrible, you know, like, miserable and angry and mean, and scary. And so my work was becoming simply healed within myself. And, you know, many years, many hours, many dollars, many everything later, I feel as though I'm actually on the other side I am, I feel as though I've gone through my own initiation at this point. And along the way, I learned sort of crutches or tools to parent better, while I can heal the underlying wound. And so those things were mindful parenting, for example, learning how to affirm and validate and build emotional intelligence in my children, so that the day to day was simply less hectic and crazy. And so as I come the other side of this journey, and I'm doing these things, it feels passive. And it feels as though I'm just reacting. And yet here I am preparing you know, I've got my oldest is nine, I'm preparing in the next few years for, you know, an initiatory journey, a rite of passage, something like that. And also building him into a man building all my children into a man into men. And so there's there is that sense of giving gift along the way that is not simply receiving what the day is bringing, and just being there to reflect back that so called mindful parenting. But that is challenge and so I'm finding my role to be this mix of support, but also challenge and I'm continually curious of like, how and when and what's the right move and all these kinds of things because if we just are there for our children, and we almost don't constrain them, I feel as though they just can't grow fully. And I'm wondering if that's been your experience as well on you know, three and a half for me was kind of like how much do I do because they're so small and they're just coming out front for mother but like that was a great thing with the the sleeping and the breastfeeding and everything like that. So have you also got a sense of that support and challenge role as a father

Ian MacKenzie 39:29

Yeah, I appreciate that lens. I certainly you know the age I am curious how it will continue to develop I think for me around this moment now are like this, this sort of latest stage. I feel like I'm definitely more of a I mean, play and like adventure dad, right. It's like yeah, get them outside. Explore. Yeah, like listen to his stories, you know, this this kind of stuff like like participate in the aliveness you know of the world with him because it feels like he's just really cute to that. And so I wonder how to develop? I mean, I know from again, talking with other fathers with older kids as well, like you said, it's sort of the, it's, there's the fine art of knowing when, you know, receiving or allowing in, is the right medicine, right? And when other times it's like, okay, no, not good enough, like, here we go, you know, a challenge or appropriate burden is actually a way of inviting a kind of a sort of achievement process, or some sort of sense of, of doing something right, claiming something, you know, I had my first job, it's, I don't know what it was 15 or something right at the time. And, you know, certainly, there was a feeling of like, okay, I wanted to, you know, earn a bit of money and get it out. But, of course, you know, maybe the classic story too, is like, you know, when you earn the money for your first thing, it's like, you taste some kind of sense of accomplishment, typically, certainly in a in an economy, you know, based on money and all that. And so, you know, if I don't know, right, if I grew up in a family that was well off, and I didn't need to do that, you know, I can see how not being challenged to to earn and to participate in some fashion, right, it doesn't breed a kind of capacity, and why would it? Right? And so I think, yeah, there needs to be an attunement, right to, when is the right moment for challenge? When is the right moment just simply for more nurturance and acceptance? And I do think that, that does rely on both the work of the dad, you know, to be alert, and and aware enough in themselves to write of what am I just reacting because, you know, I have an issue with, you know, maybe they're being lazy or sloth, they're not doing right, but when is it like, oh, wait, no, they're in a process, actually, you know, so I can just, you know, chill out receive them. And other times when it's like, alright, yeah, you know, we got to do something good. Let's get out of here. So I suspect that will come certainly, you know, as he grows older, and I hope, and also, again, relying on the other dads to maybe point things out or to encourage right? Things I won't I mean, I'm not seeing and that helping me as well understand. Oh, yeah. Where are they in their development? Or what is the right medicine they need in that moment?

Curt Storring 42:03

I'm just curious. How much of your own inner work sort of have you been doing over the last perhaps your entire adult life? I'm not sure. Was this like a big thing for you to have to get through just in terms of healing? Was fatherhood, an impetus for doing any of that? What is your general sort of brief version of the work in your life?

Ian MacKenzie 42:21

Yeah, I mean, where to begin? I'd say, you know, I mean, I, probably when I say, basically, maybe I might make a shift to When did I actively begin to engage or challenge myself in any kind of personal development or growth? Or, you know, I don't know, if I called it that, then, you know, my early 20s, I started tuning into Buddhism, around that time, like maybe like many. And of course, I was like, wow, this is the thing, and I did a passionate meditation for, you know, I did a 10 day then and, and that sort of became a bit of my, my practice, then. Right. And I would say, certainly, that was first toe dips in this kind of stuff. And then I mean, I got really curious around, like activism in spaces and activism, one of my previous films with another director, was called occupied love, which is based on the first year of the Occupy movement. And we had already been sort of in certain activist circles and communities. And so again, that became my sense of, oh, wait, you know, you can't be on the cushion meditating, while the world's burning. And of course, occupied love for us was really this understanding that fuses both like you need, you know, the spiritual practice, and you need the willingness to engage with the world. I would say my introduction, though, into sort of community, you know, group process, you know, Shadow Work, all that really started. I mean, sort of 2014, you know, 2015, I was invited to community in Portugal, called Samara, which is, you know, it's pretty, not well known then and more so now, but still, and they have a really interesting take on really a sense of like what's needed to regenerate trust it both in the community and with their connection to life in the land, they've regenerated this land in Portuguese landscape, and then how it might be a model actually for regenerating trust around the world. And this is a film I'm in the later stages now of completing is called the sacred matrix. But that was ongoing to me. And then I was sort of tracking this rise of the feminine. This is again back on 2014. And that became a project with a co director Nicole Sorkin, looking at the women in electronic music. And we're like really like looking at this archetypal lens on these particular women. But how they represented this, this rise of the feminine and you know what creativity and gifts with them were they bringing to the culture in 2015 is though, when I found men's work, so that led me to mankind project, I already had some men that had done the MKP weekend. So that really was my first like, wow, this is like men's work. And then from there, yeah, you know, going more into the different kinds of work connecting with different orgs like sacred sites. and facilitating some of my own men spaces. And then ultimately like fusing a lot of the work with to Mara, alongside men's work, and the mythic masculine podcast, you know, of course, was my sort of conversational inquiry into these realms. And so I feel like, I'm certainly not done in the sense of ever arrived, of course, but, but I certainly feel like I'm like, Okay, I've sort of mapped to the ecosystem in a way that I feels like I can make certain connections now that are both helpful for me and seem to be helpful for other people. And also to see what's missing, right? In the sense of where are the actual cultural absences, which, you know, a lot of the work as it's playing out in dominant modern culture, isn't really aware of like, its own blind spots, right. Essentially, especially this split between something Steven Jenkinson said in my conversation with him, you know, this the sort of what we do on the weekend, you know, with the lads and get out there and you know, beat the drum or whatever it is, and then go home, and you're just working a regular job. And that separation is a tension that actually needs to be resolved. Like it's not, it doesn't serve actually to be continually separate, because as we see, you know, the biosphere is continuing to unravel, and, you know, war and the Ukraine and all these places. And it's like, there needs to be actual, meaningful integration, if we really hope to, you know, create a future that works for all life.

Curt Storring 46:24

Man, one of the things I picked up on that is just like how important it is to actively be creating throughout your process. And I'm sort of getting that in this project right now. Like I'm writing, and I'm thinking and it's helping me to become a better man. But what I see in your story is like this creation, the filmmaking, the projects, and finding in that what's useful for you, and I would love for, I think, more men to take that approach of creation rather than consumption. And I'm very, I'm just glad to hear that it's a way to do things, because it's new for me, I've never heard someone go through and like, create film and do this work and explore culture in a way to do your own work. That's brilliant. So thank you for sharing that. And perhaps the the lead up of all of that was going to ask you, what you think about this idea of men who are even people, parents, who have done a lot of this work, self work, inner work, healing, whatever you want to call it, who almost, I think are becoming the new version of helicopter parents. And what I mean by this is the, you know, helicopter parents of 510 15 years ago, whatever you want to call it, will try to stop their children from doing anything dangerous, because they themselves couldn't deal with the Nervous System Shock of their kid getting hurt their kid getting in trouble doing anything that's disobeying them. And so what I'm seeing today, and perhaps, it's just me projecting my own thing, but what I'm thinking I'm seeing is that a lot of parents doing the work now are almost helicoptering their parent helicopter, parenting their children in the sense of not wanting their children to experience the same wounds that they felt psychologically. And so it yes, we are aware of, you know, parenting styles this way, yes, we are trying to do things to allow them to feel, but I'm also seeing like, oh, I want to stop my child from doing X, because that's my inner wound. And if I stopped them from having that inner wound, oh, life would be so much easier, almost forgetting that, you know, from the garden of our inner wounds, our deepest wounds brings our greatest gifts, basically. And so I don't know if I'm just projecting, and that's what I need to work on. Or if you've seen this as well, but I thought you'd be an interesting person to ask, because it's almost this new version of it, you know, and it's just, we have to allow our children to suffer and struggle, but as fathers be there as well, to produce that safety when they do fail. So do you any thoughts on that?

Ian MacKenzie 48:44

Yeah, what comes to me is, again, I believe it was Stephen Jenkinson, who said something like, if you're wanting to as a parent, if you're not if you're trying not to pass on your wounds, or I don't know, if you said wound, but something like to that effect, if you try not to pass them on to your kid, what you'll do inadvertently is pass along, not wanting to pass it along. And it's a little bit like what you just said, so you by keeping them in a way from fully, I guess, encountering 100 Maybe consciously it then you pass on the it's it's the weight of its absence, let's say or the sort of crater of its absence. And I mean, how that might play out differently, I think is again to some model that I saw, or through an interview at Tamara, this community in Portugal, where this one girl, she was in her early 20s, at that point, named Aida, who grew up in the project. And she, we asked her about growing up in the project, right? And she said, talked about her parents and she said the parents were her greatest loves of her life, which was, you know, pretty beautiful. You don't typically hear that from a sort of early adult. But she also said, you know, I never thought that they never pretended they were perfect. But what they did do was they kept doing their work. And in this case, you know, in the community, they have a lot of sevens. indicated processes for sort of dealing with a lot of, you know, the undercurrent, still layers of work that needs to be done. But the beauty of what they do is that they have appropriate containers for it. So this is the other thing often that, you know, is is the sort of tragedy of the nuclear family often is, the parents, you know, whether they process with each other, or probably, you know, I used processes that sort of euphemism, but often fight or in conflict with each other. And how the kids often are the recipients right of that work, which is actually not theirs, and it shouldn't be, shouldn't be there. So that's different than like, the kind of false falsity, right, that often I think, follows parents around where, you know, the classic example might be, maybe the teens, like, you know, picks up on maybe there's tension, you know, between the parents are sad, you know, some emotion and the parent, they say, Hey, mom, like, what's up? And they're like, nothing, it's fine. Right? Like, if it's that, right, but that kind of cognitive dissonance is, I think, where the it's the breeding ground of resentment for teenagers, especially right, who, you know, I've heard this, they're excellent bullshit detectors. And so teens, then if they don't see it, they don't feel authenticity from the parents, then why would they offer it back when their parents ask them? Right, and say, hey, you know, how's your school? Right? But why would they give you something that, you know, authentic? If they're not, you're not authentic with them? And by authentic I don't mean just be their friend, right? I just mean, can you actually, though, exhibit a kind of, yeah, like a sort of responsible transparency, right, with whatever you're working with, and trust that they can hold that. Because, you know, at a certain age, I understand that they they do have capacities that maybe, you know, seemed like they shouldn't be available yet. And so, going back to Nyla, to Mara, so she was saying, you know, they never tried to be perfect, I saw that they were just doing their work. And that, that brought me a sense of trust with them, you know, that, that I wasn't going to be the recipient, you know, unawares of their, you know, their, their wounds or their issues. But also that they actually had the appropriate containers for it, and that it's like, she could see them doing it. But she wasn't in the blast radius of it. Right, which is often what happens with kids, they're in the blast radius, and that's what actually traumatizes them.

Curt Storring 52:17

Yes, perfect. I love that. That's such a beautiful way to put it in. It touches on something I was talking to previous guests, Dylan rose about this yesterday. And I asked him because he said, you know, he really respected his parents. And I went, Oh, why? How can I, you know, engender that in my children? Because, of course, that's what we want. And he said it was the same thing. He saw his parents acting authentically, the things that they said they wanted him to do. They just did. It wasn't this question of like, oh, when his dad do that, it's like, no, he's up. He's more fit than I am. He's doing this. He's doing that. And he's expecting that from me as well. So there's this challenge. There's this respect of the container, which I think is huge in men's work and doing all this stuff, couples counseling, whatever it may be. It's, it's a beautiful reminder to do the right container. And I mean, I would love to go on for another hour about everything is particularly your own journey and fatherhood, but I want to be respectful to time. Would you like to wrap it up in the next few minutes here?

Ian MacKenzie 53:10

Then? I got my another 10 If

Curt Storring 53:12

you want. Okay, I, I kind of want to ask about just like last thoughts on your fatherhood journey? You know, was this was doing this work helpful? Or was it something that you had to draw from after the fact? Because it was actually like, Oh, this is way different than I thought it would be? What was your journey? What has been your journey and fatherhood? And what has helped from this journey? And what have you had to continue to pick up along the way?

Ian MacKenzie 53:37

Yeah, great question. I shouldn't say that. I never, you know, I didn't have a kind of, I want to be a father someday, like, that really has never been present for me. You know, I was sort of open to it. I was married previously. And there was a time in that relationship. You know, after a few years, where my wife at the time, we certainly wanted to have kids and I was kind of like, okay, you know, that's, that's what we do. So and, and, and it made me I don't want to seem like aloof, but I was I was sort of open to it, but I wasn't the one, you know, carrying the staff and saying, Let's go for it. And ultimately, that relationship ended. There's a long story behind it, but I won't get into it. But essentially, even after I was kind of like, I was sort of it didn't, it wasn't just burning desire in me. And I don't know I said there's a few events that somewhat culminated in in a sense of Wait, maybe I do want to do this one was I was in a head on collision. This is back in early 2017. I was I was stopped at a parking lot or a stoplight with a friend and a car essentially coming our way jumped at the curb in hammered into us. And I we both walked from that the car was totaled. But you know, just say that some certain brushes with deaths, you know, certain put things in perspective, that's one piece of it. There was also a friend sort of mentor of mine who who died actually that year. His name was Michael Stone. He was a sort of Zen Buddhist activist, collaborator, and he He's father as well. And he had written a book actually about fatherhood with a friend. And, and yeah, he sort of modeled to me a kind of presence of father, you know, that I was really curious about and with his death as well, at 42, it just had a real effect on me, I think combined with it in my own brush. And then I'll just say, meeting the right woman, you know, was a big piece to have like, oh, wow, this, you know, our genes seem like they do well together. You know, some way there was something in that meeting that all of a sudden made it seem, yes, you know, this, let's, let's go for it. And yeah, I'll just say, in terms of the work I've done, I mean, I, I only also said, Yes, I think because I was living in a collective at that point, you know, we were living in a collective home that was trying to live out a lot of these things that we gathered along the way. And so for me, if we had been living in a nuclear situation at the time, or if I had, I have a hard time thinking, I would have said, Yes, because I had a sense of how difficult it was actually to do as in a nuclear situation. And so living in that way, I was like, wow, you know, I could picture you know, a lot of support from others, and just, you know, him being really a child of the collective right, that was a vision. And I'll say, you know, in some ways, it was that, you know, that house that we lived in with eight others, at the time, definitely, there was some really beautiful connections that were made. And, you know, for example, my son's first steps were actually taken, you know, after we just have a sort of House meeting. That, essentially, you know, having that moment witnessed by other members in the home was, you know, one of the most beautiful treasures I think I take from that time, and to see their joy to have like, cheering on, you know, my son who's just like, taking his steps, and maybe something that is often reserved just for the parents. Right. And, and they were able to experience it, too, was really beautiful. And at the same time, I'll say that, you know, none of them else, none of the others in the home as well. Well, one, it was a part time dad, which was really was really helpful. But the others weren't parents. And also, you know, one thing I've come to understand too, is that, you know, the orbit of parents is just different. Right? Like, I didn't really understand it before we had a child. I feel like I understand it more now. But yeah, they just asked a certain ongoing effort, you know, have you when there's like, no off switch? You know, I'd be like, Okay, I mean, hopefully with people around, right, it's like, okay, over to you. But it's just a lot to ask people, right, who aren't just like really invested in, in raising kids together. And often, that's why I think parents tend to coalesce with other parents. Because there's just a sense of like, okay, you get it. So that that was a challenge there. And,

you know, I'm living, we're living now in another collective. This is up in the Comox. Valley area, and others who are parents, and yeah, I think finding a groove here, that was really helpful to figure that out, as sort of a mutual support. And certainly, the works continued that, you know, I'll say, the biggest challenge for me has been regulating my nervous system, you know, in the face of a being, which is just a wild storm a lot of the times, and I, you know, I pride prided myself on, you know, sent a certain grounded, you know, go with the flow, I got this, you know, easygoing, but it's changed everything, when you haven't slept much when this being you know, is hitting 30 decibels or whatever, you know, and, and, like, I'm just surprised at how affecting it is, right? When I think like, you know, my, on a good day, when I'm grounded, I'm slept, I'm fed. I'm like, hey, it's all good. You know, I can roll with it. But that's actually more rare than I anticipated. Right? And then suddenly, you you still gotta show up in parents in those moments. And that's something that, yeah, it's hard to anticipate, but I think all fathers would understand.

Curt Storring 58:47

Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel so seen. You know, I think everyone can resonate with that. And I actually really appreciate you go in there. Because in this conversation, and a lot of your work, I go, Oh, my goodness, like Ian is so intellectual. And he's like, so thoughtful and learn it and all these things. I really admire that about you. And I was like, Oh, thank goodness, you know, you're sharing what's real, which is struggle, which is nervous system, which is like getting down and dirty. And I think that's like, just a perfect way to, to cap it off to go from like, all of this intellectual heaviness, to be like, yeah, sometimes it just sucks. And I'm gonna do my best. And that's just, it's beautiful. And I also really love the the communal aspect that you've fostered. I'd love to talk to you about that maybe offline someday, because we're continuing to think about how this happens in our life. So anyway, Ian, thank you so much. This has been a joy and I would love for you to just drop in, where people can find you how they might work with you. And you know where else to go because we'll put these all in the show notes, but give it to the listeners now, please.

Ian MacKenzie 59:44

Yeah, no worries. So the mythic masculine.com is the place to find all the episodes of my podcast also, anywhere, you know, Spotify, Apple, just do a search. The School of methyl poetics is actually undergoing a REIT or an initial launch, which actually be Ready more like June. But you could go without or find us on Instagram. My 15 years of film as well as writing and things are on my main website in mac.com, I N M A C k.com. As well as if people want to work with me directly. I do offer creative mentorship, which is something that I feel, you know, I don't call myself a life coach or any of that. But I feel like given my body of work and the direct experience I've had, you know, over the years, I've consulted with many and mentored many in in that act that you know, to how to be creative, how to hone your mythopoetic sense of, you know, your, your scent, your identity, your gifts, and how to bring them forth in an effective way in the world now.

Curt Storring 1:00:42

Brilliant. Okay, we'll drop that all in the show notes. And man, Ian, thank you so much. I'm glad that we are now in each other's orbits. I appreciate you. And I appreciate all the wisdom. Thank you. Thanks. Great. Thank you for listening to the dad worth podcast. That's it for this episode. But if you would like to stay in touch between weekly episodes, why don't you go over to Instagram and follow me there because I drop a number of things throughout the week that are related to what we talked about on this podcast, but usually go a little bit deeper, provide some tips you can find me on Instagram at dadwork.curt. That's DADWORK.CURT And please, if you have been getting something out of this podcast, if it has touched you if it has improved your marriage, your parenting or your life, would you please leave a quick review on Apple or Spotify. leave a rating. If you have a few extra seconds, leave a quick review. That's the best way that we can get this work in the hands of more fathers. And I truly believe that we change the world, one father at a time because each father that parents better that loves better raises children who do the same. And in just a couple of generations. I feel like we could be living in a world much better than the one we live in today. Your review will help along that path. And I thank you so much for being here to listen until next week. We'll see you then.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai