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Today’s guest is Jayson Gaddis.

We go deep talking about:

  • Connection, Attunement, and Secure Attachment in Parenting
  • Why it’s so important to get good at conflict in your high-stakes relationships
  • Reframing conflict as an opportunity for connection, instead of something to be avoided
  • Practices to help you get more aligned in yourself and show up more calmly
  • Dealing with conflict with our kids, whether they’re 2 or teenagers
  • Why conflict is so hard
  • How to engage in conflict in a way that helps our partner become more receptive to what we have to say

Jayson Gaddis is an author, relationship expert and coach who teaches people the one class they didn’t get in school – “How to do Relationships.” Jayson leads one of the most in-depth and comprehensive relationship educational programs and trains relationship coaches all over the world. Jayson has thousands of fans and followers across multiple channels and is the host of The Relationship School Podcast with over 4 million downloads (and over 330 episodes). He is the visionary behind The Relationship School® and his book Getting to Zero was released in October 2021.

Find Jayson Online At:

Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the data word podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of dad work. This is episode number 72. How to navigate conflict in your high stakes relationships with Jason Gattis. We go deep today talking about connection, attunement and secure attachment in parenting. Why it's so important to get good at conflict in your high stakes relationships, reframing conflict as an opportunity for connection instead of something to be avoided. practices to help you get more aligned in yourself and to show up more calmly dealing with conflict with our kids, whether there are two or teenagers, why conflict is so hard in the first place, and how to engage in conflict in a way that helps our partner become more receptive to what we have to say. Jason Gattis is an author, relationship expert and coach who teaches people the one class they didn't get in school, how to do relationships, Jason leads one of the most in depth and comprehensive relationship, educational programs and trains relationship coaches all over the world. Jason has 1000s of fans and followers across multiple channels, and is the host of the relationship school podcast with over 4 million downloads in over 330 episodes. He's the visionary behind the relationship school and his book getting to zero was released in October 2021. You can find Jason online at the relationship You can find his podcast anywhere podcasts are found find on Instagram, Facebook, and of course, you can pick up his book getting to zero at your local bookstore or on Amazon. And I highly recommend you do because this was a very amazing book that I have recently finished reading. And I think I've probably recommended it now to maybe dozens of people one on one. And now it will be hundreds of people with a podcast. So please pick up a copy of getting to zero because it will literally go through everything you need to know about why conflict is hard. What is your conflict style? What is your attachment style, why your childhood probably has a lot to do with how you show up in relationship today. And how to actually deal with conflict. And Jason gives in the book, a couple of frameworks to listen, and also to speak in conflict. And he goes so deep in such a way that I just feel really helped almost in the way that he he outlines conflict. And I have used this to great effect to change the way that I engage in conflict with my kids, my wife, people that you know, maybe disagree with me on certain things. And when we're talking about it, it's like why conflict like if all the relationship things, I thought it would be you know, you read a book on marriage or relationship or something like that it was a conflict. Hmm. That's interesting. And when you think about it, I mean, it makes perfect sense that this is the number one most impactful thing that he could have possibly written on being an expert in relationships, because we don't need help. When things are going well. Most of us need help when things are not going well, and getting to zero. And in this case, zero is sort of feeling good, not feeling angry anymore. Not feeling resentment, feeling really grounded and stable. Getting to zero in our relationships is one of like the biggest hacks if you will, in living a great life and having deep connection and authentic relationship, whether it is with a business partner, or a friend or a colleague, or a child, or your your wife. And so I highly recommend that you guys tune into this one because it is a fantastic conversation. I really, really appreciate that how Jason showed up. I appreciate that he showed up. Because then he is truly the expert in all of this that we're talking about. So let's dive into Episode number 71. Now with Jason Gaddis, and I would love to hear your thoughts. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. If you'd like find me on Instagram dad work Curt or send me an email Curt at Dad.Work If you have any feedback, otherwise, enjoy this talk with Jason. Got it? Here we go.

Alright, dads, I'm here for another amazing episode with Jason Gattis. Today and Jason, I'm so excited to have you on because like a lot of the stuff that I take away and use and practice as a dad actually learned from you and your podcast, especially you guys like Dan Siegel, and just relating to people in a conscious manner. So thank you for taking the time. This is actually like a Sony before very special to me to have you because I really respect you and the work you're doing. So first of all, welcome. Yeah, thanks, Curt. super psyched to be here. And great to see you, man. Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to get into your book, getting to zero, which is fantastic. I've recommended it to like probably dozens of people at this point. And I want to start though, with parenting, because it's something I see from you with what you share. That looks like you're a really good dad. And if you're not really good dad, well, like you play it very well. And I just appreciate how you show up as a dad in the sort of online world. So I want to sort of go into what that journey looked like for you because I was reading your book. It's like you weren't always this calm, chill sort of dude who had his stuff together. What did it look like for you becoming a dad was there like this monumental shift? Was it easy? Where were you in your journey as you became a father?

Jayson Gaddis 4:57

Yeah. Well, first of all, I never wanted to get married and I never wanted kids, I loved children. Like above the age of four, I was a, I've always worked with kids, I really love kids. But below four is just like this, it was like a major blind spot. And babies irritated me. I was the guy on the plane judging the parent with the crying kid. So I can just it's important to mention that I didn't always know I wanted to be a dad. So once I became a dad. And once I got clear in my heart, that that's what I wanted to do. It was just all systems go. And when, when my son, my son, I have two kids, my son is now 13, my daughter's 11. And when he first came in to the world on that day, I actually kind of shut down. I had a really, my wife was hurt, her heart was just like blown open. And her and my son connected immediately. And I just felt really kind of low grade, dissociated, shut down. And it was, of course, I was happy. And I was psyched about, wow, I have this child. And I was like staying up late, and I was just in deal mode. But on a weird low grade psychological level, my I was working with stuff. And it took me a couple of weeks to kind of come back into my body and into my self and into my gratitude. So I I say that because I I think there's this expectation that we have a child and Oh, fireworks, everything's great. And for me, it wasn't that way. Took me a while to, to just kind of orient. And, yeah, but but it's the probably the single biggest accomplishment of my life is being a father and I just love being a dad.

Curt Storring 6:38

And where were you at in terms of like your own inner journey of healing or growth or whatever? Like, was this early on? Or was it midway through? Did you have tools to deal with this sort of dissociation?

Jayson Gaddis 6:50

I did, I had tools. I had therapists mentors at a men's group. So I had tools, I was about six years into my personal growth journey. And so I and I was a therapist, I was working with people I was working with clients. And yet, I just I just, you know, fuzzed out for some reason. And but yeah, I had, I used all my tools and all my techniques to come back. And, you know, fortunately, I

Curt Storring 7:19

had an awesome partnership as well. So she helped a ton. Do you know what it was upon reflection that had the shutdown? And like, what, how'd you come out of that?

Jayson Gaddis 7:29

Yeah, so a couple things. I have a view with parenting that wherever I'm triggered by my kids, is a place I haven't loved in myself, I haven't dealt with in my own history. So a lot of my own attachment wounds and challenges came up in my kids first couple of years of life. So I don't have conscious memory of two years and lower, you know, like most of us don't. And I certainly didn't. But I have memory in my body. Right. And I, I was in when I first was born, my mom and I were separated. And I was in a and she used hardcore, you know, Pitocin and epidurals and all that, so I was, I had a lot of drugs. In my system. When I was born, and I was separated from her for about five days, she would come to visit me she had pneumonia, so she had to go home. And I stayed in the hospital in like the, the room and the glass containers with all the other kids. Right. And we now know through research, obviously and what you know that that's not great for kids and the attachment bond between parent and caregiver. And so I think, honestly, Curt, it was just like a dissociation. It was like a memory that just like I just fuzzed out, you know, for a bit. And it brought up all my old birth trauma, essentially.

Curt Storring 8:48

Wow, man, thank you for going there. This is something that I've recently delved into myself asking my mother, what was my birth story, and feeling this really deep sense of like, almost sadness, because it was similar sort of story, you know, C section delivery, and I felt a loss of money hearing that, and the thing started making sense. And it's funny to talk about that, because I think this is still not in sort of the general public psyche that this has such an impact. And I'm grateful that you shared that because it does man like the difference in the births with my kids. The last two were home births, and they were just so beautiful and magical and immediate skin contact, there is no, like weighing them in this scary scale. And like all the lights on, it was very gentle. And I see that released. I believe I see that in how they sort of show up in the world today. It mirrors that experience. And what was it that sort of brought you back? Was it just like having gone through the body and you know, worked it out? Or was it very clear, like, I got to do something here?

Jayson Gaddis 9:47

Well, there was another layer that I had to deal with, which is I think one thing that turned on when I became a father was the stuff that's pretty common, which is Oh god, I'm responsible now. I'm the protector on the public. Vitor on the whatever, and we don't have a no have never agreed that I'm going to be the breadwinner, and she's going to just raise the kids traditional kind of marriage, although, at times it looks like that, certainly. But you know, it just wakes that up, I think in a male psyche body that's like, oh, shit, I've got a deal. And I, at the time was not financially empowered, I still had a lot of money issues, I was still, there was still paycheck to paycheck kind of quality of how I was doing my life. And yeah, I just it. So if I had, I had to deal with that, and get oriented, like, Okay, wow, this is real. And like, Oh, my God, now I'm responsible. And I want to, I want to step up and show up strong. And connection is always the way that I come back into my body and into my heart is through relationships with my wife and other people, and really like slowing down and giving myself all kinds of time to connect with my son. All of that kind of brought me into the magic of the moment.

Curt Storring 10:57

Hmm, that's really good to hear. Because for me, I was deep in not being awake. Basically, I was, you know, 23 hadn't dealt with any of my stuff didn't even know there were stuff to deal with. And I felt that disconnect, too. And I heard people say, Oh, it's the best day of my life. That's like, but like, What do you mean, like, nothing happened to me, I just now have a kid. And it's like, kind of checked out as well. It took me a long time for me to connect with my oldest. And part of that was have been talking about this this week, like forgiving myself, because I disconnected for like, two years. Yeah, you know, like, couldn't come back from that until I finally was like, Man, you were doing the best you could, and it sucked. But you know, you have to be compassionate, because you went through all those things that make sense? I don't know, that's something that you say a lot. You know, it makes sense to validate someone's feelings. And to do that for myself. Nice. And that sort of changed it for me. But it was a long, long process. And I wonder like, in parenting itself nowadays, are there principles? Are there things that you use on a daily basis, sort of, in the back of your mind just being like, this is how I want to parent? Because this is how I know is going to affect my kids positively going forward?

Jayson Gaddis 12:08

Yeah, it's a big question. I mean, I can say so much here. But to kind of try to distill it down is connection. You know, it's if I am in any way, shape, or form disconnected from myself, or my kids, that's a problem in my eyes, and I'm gonna do something about that. And I think connection in our family is the central sort of locus of it's sort of the home base for us is like, how connected we feel to each other. And that's can be abstract, right? To talk about what does that really mean? And because a lot of it's interesting, because a lot of dads or parents will say, Yeah, I'm connected to my kids. But they're, I think they're more connected to an idea than actual feeling of connection. Because a lot of people grew up in families where connection wasn't like deep connection. And feeling known and seen by the other person wasn't on the table. But they liked each other, they hung out all the time, they had shared interests. That's a form of connection. But that's not the connection I'm talking about. No, I'm talking about like, really, like I see you and I feel seen by you kind of connection.

Curt Storring 13:20

Okay. And that reminds me of secure attachment, as Dr. Dan Siegel explains in his book, The Power of showing up which I actually learned from your podcast. So thank you for that. And, like, how does that look that how do you do these things to connect like feeling safe, seen soothe, and as you say, supported and challenged? Are there like, did you have to work at that? Or does that something that came naturally to you? How do we develop that secure attachment? When that's usually not where we come from?

Jayson Gaddis 13:45

Yeah, that's a great question. Yes, and I am talking about secure attachment, my wife and I definitely take pride in kind of creating a safe harbor and a launching pad is down says write a secure home base here, so that our kids just feel safe to be a mess in our house. And they're not going to get judged or made wrong for their emotions or for their choices. And if and when we do, because sometimes a parent, I raised my voice, right, Judge one of my kids, then it's how quickly can I repair it? How quickly can I come back into connection with my kids, and so they feel like they can be free to be who they are. And it has taken work to wake up into that over many years. Now, it's though it's just second nature. It's just kind of how I roll in the in the home here that I want to know my kids and I want them to feel like they can just be who they are here. Right? And attunement is probably a subtlety that that is really important. And we can talk about that if you want but my my short definition is just like a dial like I'm tuning in, in the present moment to how my kids are feeling and how we're feeling together in a relationship on any given moment. Whether we're playing Catch, or we're just messing around drawing, or we're kind of wrestling or whatever, right? It's, it's an attuned parent is, is one who is kind of plugged in and tuned in to their kids state, their emotional state, like, it's amazing to me how many parents will let their kids be in a shitty place for months or years. And because the parent isn't relationally adept, or they they're not attuned themselves, they just they're Miss attune. And so they don't notice, right to their kids on their screen all the time, and just kind of checked out. And it's like, wait a minute, what, this isn't the kind of relationship I want, you know?

Curt Storring 15:35

Yeah. And this will be like beating a dead horse for the everyone who's listening to this podcast repeatedly, every episode. But I assume this takes mindful attention, mindful awareness, some sort of practice to develop that because as you say, most of the parents that I see as well are checked out, not as tuned in, as you say, what were some of the ways that you used or even use with your clients to actually check in? Because it seems like it's a learned thing for those who are so used to being checked out?

Jayson Gaddis 16:03

Yeah, two things meditation. You know, I became a meditator. When I was 29. I started meditating, I should say. And I was very serious, I took it really seriously for many years, and helped me just be with the discomfort in my body, the strong emotions that I had, you know, repressed my previous life entirely. So Meditation allows us to just be with our pain or joy or discomfort. And that helps us I think, be able to be with our kids pain, joy or discomfort. Right? I can't, I can't be with a crying baby. Unless I can be with my own tears, right, it's gonna be pretty hard. I want to hand the baby off to someone else, you know. So mindfulness was huge. And then meditation, and then relational practices. And what I mean by that is just getting present with other people, like a therapist, initially, for me, and then male friends that I had in graduate school, studying psychology, and then eventually a men's group. My wife eventually became that kind of practice partner, where it's like, we were using our relationship, in the moment, looking at each other's eyes to come into the present moment, like, hey, what do you as we look, and it's just a simple eye gazing exercise, you could say is where we look in each other's eyes. And we just say, how are we, you know, right now I feel, I notice. We can talk about ourselves, I notice I feel scared, or I can look at you and say, You seem X, Y, and Z. A lot of this can be externally referenced. But it's big, it's good, a good practice to try to turn the turn the attention on yourself and be like my notice, I'm numb. All right, for a lot of guys, for example, it's that haven't felt right and have repressed their emotional life that can be hard for us to turn toward your emotions. So those are a couple things that really, that Oh, and just to tying in to that is just feeling your feelings, right? I you know, if you've repressed emotions, push them away, ignore them, compartmentalize them. That's a that's a way to not be present with yourself. So too, a way to be present with yourself is to turn toward any kind of emotion, be at fear, anger, sadness, joy, whatever, and actually try to feel it start to practice learning how to feel your feelings huge for coming into the now and into a place of attunement.

Curt Storring 18:15

Yeah, and practice. I love that because we're not just going to get good at it, right? And that's something I've got to do as well, because my assumption was like, I'm good at everything. I'm just going to be good at this. It's like, no, it was it took repeatedly coming back again, and again and again. And what you said about relationships is so powerful. I had a guest on this podcast, I think was Jason Henderson, who said, like most of our wounds, or all of our wounds stemmed from relationship. And so they must then be healed in relationship. And it sounds like that might be similar. What you're saying is like getting in relationship, whether it's professional counseling, therapy, or friends or relationship with your partner, or men's group, that seems to be like one thing that I've seen over and over again, actually work to get people to express and to be more tuned in and to come out of whatever shell they've used is like an ego defense mechanism.

Jayson Gaddis 19:02

Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And your friend said it, right. We're hurting relationship, we got to heal in relationship. And that's why relationships are so badass and so powerful is we can we can work through some of our history, just by being in connection in the now.

Curt Storring 19:21

Yeah, and as you said, that I it came to mind like relationship is an opportunity. And that's leading me now into conflict, which is what I would love to talk to you about in your book getting to zero. First of all, why did you write this book? Because when I was thinking, I heard you're gonna write a book. I was like, oh, it's gonna be how to be in relationship, like how to love your partner how to like, have a good marriage, and it was conflict. And I was like, oh, that's super interesting. So why conflict of all the things you are so good at that you teach people? I mean, you train relationship coaches, and like you're amazing at this. Why was it conflict that was so necessary to speak about

Jayson Gaddis 20:00

Yeah, that's a good question I, I initially started thinking marriage, you know, oh, I'm gonna write a marriage book. And for years, I wanted to write some kind of book for partners or couples. And I had a lot of starts and stops with that over the years. And then I was gonna write a book for women to deal with men. And that didn't work out and, and then eventually, I, you know, my agent and I were talking about the book that would have the biggest impact in like, what's the crux of any awesome relationship, and it's conflict, it's the willingness and ability to work through conflict. And I knew that if I, I could write this book that it would serve the function of helping all humans get better at relationships by saying yes to the tension between us and learning how to work through it.

Curt Storring 20:47

And are you great at conflict? Do you like conflict? Like, where's your own emotional feeling around conflict?

Jayson Gaddis 20:53

No, I really dislike the discomfort I feel and the stress I feel in conflict, particularly with my wife, if we're not in a good place, I get anxious, and I don't like it. And I disconnect and I feel like my day is harder. And I'm not a person who likes arguing I wasn't on the debate team. I'm not like, really good at arguing. But what I got good at was listening. And I got good at trying to understand someone else's position and where they're coming from. And the thing I still am not great at is empathy. I, when I'm in my self, righteous, indignant defensive posture, it's just, it's really hard for me to empathize with my partner. But I had a lot of failed conflicts. I mean, you could say all my failed relationships were because of conflict gone poorly, right? And that's, to me, most divorces, breakups separations, are happening because people don't know how to work with each other's differences, and they don't know how to handle each other's nervous systems, essentially. So, you know, I, my wife and I are efficient, and we still get in conflict, just like anyone else. It's not like, when you study this stuff, you somehow have maybe less conflict, although maybe we do compared to a normal couple. It's just a way of measuring that. But we're very committed to getting more and more efficient over time, and just try and as lifechanging kids ages change, and our needs change, and our sex changes, like, there's so many changes, as you know, in a long term relationship that you can't just stick to one static approach. Like you got to be agile, you know?

Curt Storring 22:29

Yeah, yeah. And I guess comes from from listening, and it makes so much sense. I'm going like, we don't need help, when things are going well. We need help, typically, at least I've seen this in my relationship, when things aren't going well. Like how do I relate so hard to like getting defensive? And like checking out of empathy and being like, no, no, I'm right here. If you just like, listen to me, you would know. But not being able to extend that listening. And one of the things that like I really struck me from this book was inner versus outer conflict. Because my assumption being like very conflict averse, was I just keep it all in like, I'm really good at shouldering the load. I'm so good at like holding space, I'll just never say anything. I don't have to like deal with it. But it comes back. So hard way worse internally. So would you mind talking about that, like, external versus internal difference? And why we have to pick one?

Jayson Gaddis 23:18

Yeah, so the headline here is, for every external conflict, you avoid, you create an internal conflict. And so the so to make it practical, let's say my wife and I are having an argument, and I don't want to deal with it, right. And I have a, I have a withhold, I have something I want to say to her, like you, you know, I don't feel seen by you, or you fuckin didn't do this with the kids. And I have like a complaint, right? And I decide not to air attacks, I'm like, well, it's just gonna go bad. I'll keep it inside. Well, now now where to go. It didn't go anywhere. It's just inside. No one dealt with. And it's not like I went to therapy and said, Oh, I got this complaint about my wife, and I got to work through it by myself. Most people aren't doing that. So you're creating tension in yourself. And that has a really big cost, as you are sort of alluding to there. Over time, it usually turns into resentment. And then I explode six months later, or six years later, I finally like the truth comes spilling out. And I really let you have it, you know, let her have it. That's one form of the inner conflict. And another form is just how we're raised and that we often you know, because we are social mammals, we want to fit in and belong more than we want to be cast out and left alone and be in our truth. Like, I spoke my truth, but now nobody likes me. Like, we don't like that. So we'll abandon our integrity in ourselves in service of trying to keep the relationship and then and then that's another conflict and a lot of kids I'd say 99% of kids are probably experienced that because they want to fit in right?

Curt Storring 24:51

Yeah, I actually I pulled a quote which is like exactly relevant to this from the book, which is the strategic self will win out over the true self because attachment is need number one. I just want to really highlight that because I don't think that a lot of people are aware of that fact. And yet, like when I think about that in my life ago, like, yeah, everything my like deepest core wounding of abandonment, which is my perception of it was simply the loss of attachment. Would you like go ended up just a little bit to like really drive this home for people?

Jayson Gaddis 25:17

Yeah, for sure. And let's just kind of preface it with saying a lot of people, you know, refer to needs as like Maslow's hierarchy and belonging is on there, but attachment is not on there and belongings on there, higher up the bottom, actually, the pyramid really should be and I've read written Maslow's needs on my own. Because it just needed, you know, it was developed before attachment science came online. And it's the attachment is need number one, the very first thing a human being needs is to attach to a caregiver, they won't survive. And then they need to express themselves, that's the second need a baby has, so that it can keep the big people around to feed it, clothe and shelter at etc, protect it. And a lot of us grew up in families where our self expression was judged, or we were hit or hurt or neglected or ignored. For our tears. For example, like my I was a sensitive emotional boy. So when I had tears, I felt really, really criticized by my environment. So I learned to stuff my feelings, stuff myself expression, to keep the attachment need going, because I would rather have my parents and my friends like me, and not rock the boat, then to keep crying and keep everybody upset, who couldn't handle my emotions, right, and then be made fun of and then really be like my ass kicked, or whatever on the playground. So that created a really big, inner conflict, a division between my strategic self, my true self, my true self, being sensitive and emotional, and empathic, my strategic self being, I'll do whatever, I'll perform all the funny, I'll be emotionless, I'll act tough to get, you know, belonging. And a lot of us do some version of this, right? Whether it's being a good girl, or a good boy, or getting straight A's or being good at sports, or, you know, or just being invisible. A lot of kids, they feel like, you know what the path of least resistance here is to just not say anything, I'll be quiet, I'll be invisible, I'll just go to my room, and I won't have any needs at all. The problem with this is we turned into adults who were still running our strategies. So imagine being in a relationship with someone who says they don't have any needs, or, you know, someone who's like, never feels anything, there's no emotions, it's like, that's, that actually creates a lot of problems, and conflict, believe it or not, in adult relationships.

Curt Storring 27:38

Yeah, and as you're saying that one of the things I like about the book so much is that it goes back to all of this, like the conflicts you're having today as an adult, or because of how you dealt with attachment needs expression, conflict as a child, and your situation, your circumstances, your trauma, whatever it was, but you talk about all of this, and it makes it very clear that like there's a path from birth, childhood, adulthood, whatever, into this present a conflict. And it's a double edged sword for dads, because we need to heal this in ourselves, or we need to learn the tools in ourselves, while seeing that we are raising our children to likely give them some form of this. And hopefully, we can do a better job and not pass on all of our own trauma to them. But like, it's a weird place to be right, like doing this work as a dad, when you can see your behaviors as a father, impacting your children. And I wonder if there's like anything to be said about this as like, we got to do our own work. We also have to do this for our kids. Like, have you experienced this? Is there a balance? Like how do dads do all of this? And not like, for me was guilt? Because I'm, I gotta figure this out right away. And so maybe just like, is there anything there that comes up for you? As I talk about that?

Jayson Gaddis 28:46

Yeah, I think it's important that all dads feel like they can choose how they want to show up. So if we just kind of boil it down to two types of dads, there's a growth mindset oriented dad, who's, if you're a growth guy, because you're listening to Curt's podcast, you're gonna have more work as a father, you're gonna have the work of looking after your kids and their emotional life. And if you haven't done a ton of work on yourself, especially back way back, when you were your kids age, it's gonna get triggered, and you have a choice do I want to deal with my shit? So I can be a better father and be have more capacity to deal with my kids and they're who they are and who they're becoming? We're not, you know, you don't have to, there's no half to here. So the growth mindset doubt is just going to have more work the, the non the kind of fixed mindset dad is going to probably shame us shame and employ things like denial and nope, that's we don't talk about that here. Stop feeling that way. Get back in your seat. And that's, I think, how most dads are actually doing it. And then the dads are wanting approval get guys who are unworked or wanting approval from their kids. And they don't even like their kids until they can actually like talk and throw a ball with them. validate that father's like ego, you know, that's a problem. So it's just ignorance is bliss, you know, it goes back to people who don't work on themselves can kind of stay asleep to a lot of things. And in a way, it's easy, right? They can keep drinking beer, medicating away their pain, and it kind of works sadly. But a guy who's waking up a dad who's like, Nah, man, I want to do it differently here. And I really want to actually apply myself. It's yeah, you're gonna be dealing with more stuff. And that's okay. Like, if you have a warrior mindset, it's not a problem.

Curt Storring 30:30

Yeah, reminds me of, I'm not sure what the original attribution is, but like hurt people hurt people. And if you're the hurt person, and like, who's closest around you, your kids, like that, for me is a wake up call. It's like, are you really going to be doing that to your children of all people? So it you know, I think everyone listening to this is probably, as you said, in that growth mindset. But if you're sort of like, wondering, do I really need to go there? It's like, well, I don't know, how much do you value your children? Yeah, I think that's a fair question to ask as a father. And I think this sort of maybe deviates, just a slightly but I'm interested, as you said, like, you know, how do you talk to your kids, you tell them, you know, sit down, whatever? How do you personally try to navigate conflict with your kids? Like, is there a manner of speech? Do you employ, like sports casting, as they call it? Like, Oh, I see that, you know, you're feeling this way. And, you know, dealing with their emotions? Or is there some way to maybe, I don't know, express conflict with our kids in a way that lets them be heard, but also, I don't know respects the dynamic of Father, Son, or you know, parent, whatever it is, are different. How does this whole conflict go to our children? Well, maybe it's good to just tell a quick story here.

Jayson Gaddis 31:37

When I was my daughter was born. They were my kids were 22 months apart. Pretty soon after my daughter was born, my son started hitting her biting her. He was not having it, right. He was used to being the center of the universe. And then along comes he has to share mom and dad. This is really common in sibling dynamics. If parents are paying attention, they'll kind of get like, oh, the baby is upset. The toddler is upset because there's a new kid on the block, right. And so we I initially, because I was a psychotherapist, I just tried to talk to my son who was too. And I tried to talk to him like he was a 15 year old or a 30 year old. And I kept employing all these techniques, and how are you feeling what's going on in there, I want you to tell Daddy, what's happening. And I finally was at my wit's end because I my tools were useless. So we hired a friend of ours, a play therapist, I went to her play therapy class. And I just was a dad who was like, I knew a lot, and I was humble enough to go, I don't know what to do here. So I took a parenting class, it was an eight week parenting class, I went on to drive, you know, 40 minutes to go this class every Tuesday. And I learned a shit ton. And then we had a private session where she came into the house and coached me as I was with my kid, which was super powerful. And she's like, Dude, stop. Stop it. She was telling that to me. Because I was trying to do less like cool, growth oriented, therapy lingo shit to my kid. She's like, No, they're there to like, You got to talk to him like material. So she taught me like, yeah, like you said, you're feeling mad. You know, if he throws something, yeah, you're mad, I get it. And telling kids initially, we need to tell young children how they feel. Because they don't know how they feel. They don't have the awareness. They don't have the language. So we say you, yeah, you're mad, I get it. And we validate like, I get it make sense. Your mouth. Yeah, she's here now. And you're like, what the hell I thought, you know. And then we do need to talk to them, and treat them in a way like adults at a certain point. But we've got to learn how to communicate with young young children if we have young children. And then of course, it's different. In adolescence, as kids grow older, there's so much more we can do and say, and listen, but we teach, you know, I teach this nine month training to a lot of people, half the people are parents. And it's just a relationship class that we should have had in college, right. And, in there's a certain point in the course, where parents are like, holy shit, my relationship with my teenagers is completely transforming. And I'm like, what, what is what's going on? And they're like, well, all I'm doing is listening. And I'm validating their experience. And, and that's basically it. And it's completely changing our relationship for the better. And because so many parents are stuck in lecture mode, or advice mode, or let me be your mentor, and I'm going to teach you about life. And I look at me, and I'm like, How fucking cool I am and how much I know. So I know that's, that's gonna go nowhere fast, you know? So anyway, this, this parenting class was super helpful. And you know, I think at every stage of development, we can employ different tools to communicate with our kids and play with them and play like can we get down on our knees and actually play with kids? It's amazing how many I was just at a event. And I was around some dads and there was this dad who would not get in the fucking swimming pool. This kid has kids, and he just put a floaty on his kid and let the kid float around, and I'm like, this is the problem. I have a floaties I could go off on floaties it's like Get in the fucking pool and relate to your child and play play with your kid. That's what your kid is wanting right now, instead of the kids floating around, like just kind of dissociated. Like, no one's making eye contact, I'm just floating in this big pool all by myself. And I'm like, that's not good for kids. You know, we do that with screens. We do that floaties we deal with all kinds of things, because parents are fucking lazy. You know? Not good. Anyway. That's not random.

Curt Storring 35:30

Dude. That's like, yeah, as my crop. Parents are fucking lazy. I love that. Because, man, there's this like, fine line that I'm trying to be like, there's hope it's okay. And at the same time, sometimes you got to bring that fire in to be like, Dude, what are you doing? This isn't cool. And here's like, all the reasons why it's not cool. It's not just me being like, judgmental. It's like, I care about you, as a human. I care about your child as a human. I know this isn't cool. So get your shit together. And one of the things

Jayson Gaddis 35:57

there's a there's a just to say just a name it there's a there's kind of a force field around parents. And there's this collective agreement that we can't challenge parents because they already feel so guilty. Right? And so Oh, yeah, you better not actually be honest. And give a parent honest feedback. We better just kind of let them do whatever the fuck they want. Because we wouldn't want upset the parents. And I'm just not having it. I'm just so over that kind of mentality. And I understand I get why parents parents who feel guilt. You know, it's like, yeah, go deal with your guilt. Oh, don't tell me because I'm giving you feedback that I'm making you feel guilty. You already feel guilty. You already feel shame. go deal with your guilt and shame.

Curt Storring 36:36

Yeah, man, there's so much of that on like Instagram, you know, it's like, it's okay to just like, have a glass of wine and just said, it's like, throw some Cheetos down the stairs and your kids go fight over them. Like you've had a hard day. Like, no, that's fucking bullshit. What are you talking about? So I feel that big time. And I really appreciate that you went there. In one thing like you actually I think we you suggested synergetic play therapy. I think it was yeah, when we did that we learned so much in terms of like, the tantrum cycle, and like when they're not able to hear and just how to like CO regulate. And that was so important for us and a powerful, so thank you for that. Because it actually was an extremely good recommendation. And one of the things and I just want to share this, because it's so important to see how this can work in the real world. If you are naming your child's feelings, there was something I think was kindergarten for my oldest son, and there was a face. And the work of the day was what emotion is the face expressing? There's like, you know, short word, the kids are five, six. And my son was like, frustrated, and they're like, oh, no, no, disrespected, disappointed, and they're like, no, the answer was supposed to be like, sad. But he came up with all these other feelings that were actually more deep than simply the sadness, to express and I was so proud, you know, just a little ego boost for myself, which I don't need. But I just love to share this because there's power in this. Yeah, we did this as well. When we learned about I think we got introduced this kind of parenting through ride parenting and Janet Lansbury and Magda Gerber. It's just about saying, like, Hey, I see you're upset right now. You're looking really frustrated. And I'm here, you know that not being alone with those feelings is so important parenting. I love that. Yeah. Thank you for all of them. And like, this is so valuable already. I can just tell like this is gonna head I almost hate to ask this. But is there like a prescription to conflict? And I know you give like some here settle, listen, here's how to respond or say your piece in the book. But is there maybe a 30,000 foot view of what we are looking for to go through conflict in a way that each side is basically attached securely to one another?

Jayson Gaddis 38:46

Yeah, so let's it really starts with the view. So the script is really take the view that conflict is an opportunity and the conflict repair cycle, meaning you get into a snag, you disagree, you argue or something someone shuts down, there's silence whatever repair meaning you come back, both of you, you fix it, you get better, you you validate each other, whatever that conflict repair cycle is gonna go on for the life of the relationship. So that's my view. And you might as well take that view that it this cycle is actually the thing that's going to build security in the relationship. So if you can get behind, you know, the whole book, getting to zero is about getting back to a good place. 00 being a good place. And I think all of us want that. But you need to learn how to do that. If you don't know how, and you keep repeating the same frustrating arguments or mistakes. Learn how, and you'll become a stronger couple, you'll become a stronger friend or family member, whatever it is, whoever you're in conflict with. So I think that view is kind of contradicts the other view which is the more normal cultural view which is conflict is bad. It means you're maybe with the wrong person, it means there's problems and you shouldn't have problems in your relationship. All that is bullshit. It's know, if you're in a high stakes partnership have some kind of relationship, you're going to hopefully have adversity, because you're two different people trying to fit, collaborate and be a team like, and that avert adversity in the challenges between you two are just going to make you stronger, if you can figure them out. So I think that that's the biggest script I would write for people is like, have that kind of mindset, and that approach and that view. And I think no matter how you communicate, in that, at least, you're coming back to the view. And then if you have that view, you're willing then to get better and improve, and then you start applying yourself and you're learning some of the listening skills in the book or the speaking skills.

Curt Storring 40:47

Nice. Okay. So it's like this willingness, first of all, before anything else to just like, show up again, and repair. And why is that so hard? Like I spent so long in conflict in relationship for the first few years of my marriage, shutting down, and then like, I would go to this pity party, like I could remember, like lying down going to sleep being like, Oh, I'm such an idiot, and I can't deal with that. And if I admit wrong, I'm a loser. And like, everything will crumble, like, especially for men. Like why is it so hard to come back and repair? Is there like a science behind that?

Jayson Gaddis 41:19

It's a good question. Well, I think, I think we have to come back to kind of, you know, why, why is conflict so hard. And that's, there's a few reasons. Number one, our biology, the way we're wired is, is to interact and be close. And when we're at odds with someone in the herd, it's threatening, like, there's a threat response to that, right, because we, though the consequence, why it's high stakes is we could get kicked out of the herd or the die out or whatever. So we will posture, defend and do kind of all kinds of things to stay in the herd, and not get kicked out or not get rejected or abandoned. That's number one. Number two is our history. A lot of us grew up in families where we had a relational blueprint that went down a certain way, so we're kind of probably repeating some version of that, or reacting against it. And number three, we never were taught any of their shit. And number four, we don't like discomfort, right? Guys, it's so interesting, guys will like climb the biggest peaks, build crazy businesses and work all night long, 80 hours a week and do crazy challenges, extreme sports, whatever. But then in an intimate relationship, they won't. They're like, so scared, to actually get honest and deal with the discomfort there. And I'm like, I think that's the most powerful place to deal with all of your anxiety, fear, judgment, criticism, you know, hatred, whatever is there like to turn toward it and deal. And I do think there's a, there's an ego thing around our conditioning as men to that you said that I really liked, which is, we're just conditioned to be right, we're conditioned to be pro self, or over relationship, girls are more conditioned to be pro relationship over self. You know, there's a lot of conditioning that tells us, especially white men, but like, we're kind of in charge. We know what's going on. So to actually humble ourselves and say, I don't know what's going on. I'm wrong here. Possibly. Maybe I'm at fault. That's, that takes a very courageous, strong kind of guy to be able to do that.

Curt Storring 43:17

Yeah, I love the finding strength in this. That was actually one of the most powerful things that someone has ever said to me. I was I think it was a I was in a breathwork session. And I was judging myself. And I was like, I don't really want to go deep. Like, can you just like, you just fuck off? Let me breathe. And the coach is like, Is it hard for you to face these emotions? It's like, yeah, like, obviously, I don't want to do it. And she's like, Oh, don't strong men do hard things. It's like, oh, fuck, like, that is just like, got right to the core. And that's like, Yep, okay, well, I got to do this now. And I love that it's almost like a challenge. Now, you think you're strong, tough guy. You think you're this alpha deal with your own ship row? Like, what does that feel like? That's hard work. Not all this other stuff you're using to probably all the hard stuff that you said. Sometimes it's actually to get away from that really hard work. Look at all this external hard work I can do. And then I don't do any on myself, because I've just heard it, and I don't know what to do. And I've got all these relational blueprints that are like, actually, garbage. Yeah, man. Yeah, I just I love that as like an intro, like, inviting and invitation for guys to just go deep and do the hard work because it's hard, right?

Jayson Gaddis 44:20

It's hard. It's easy on your on your journey. No, man. It's like, No, I mean, I'd go to therapy sessions when I first started kind of unfined from my decades of frozenness. And, you know, I tried to find a way to like, not go to therapy that day. I, you know, like, try to find follow the therapist, so I could like not deal with myself. All kinds of escape strategies, right. Yeah. So it was part of feeling as vulnerable you know, if you spent and I think for me, one of the fears was, if I open up I'm gonna just get squashed, right, because that's what happens a kid. Like a lot of us. A lot of men wouldn't admit nom you know, you're possibly afraid you're gonna get your heart squashed and you're like, totally deep. shamed and humiliated and they're like, no, no, that's not going on. I'm not scared. It's like, well, then why is there a wall? And if that guy could actually remember the moment when he was three, or he was five or 10, and he got made fun of and humiliated by someone or just ignored, maybe he just got ignored when he had a vulnerable moment and acute thing to say, and he just got totally fucking blown out blown off. Like we've kids learn fast, like, cool. I'm not gonna do that again.

Curt Storring 45:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's relevant to the last podcast, and I probably will go out right before this one with Todd Adams. And he was like, Well, what's your relationship with joy? And it's one of those things that, you know, it's not talked about a lot in this space, because we're all doing like hard shadow work, and all this kind of stuff. But like, where is joy in your life? And I remembered as he brought that up, because he's like, when was the last time you jumped for joy? And I said, Oh, I was seven years old, I was playing hockey, I scored a goal. And I jumped. And a kid on my team said, Why did you jump? I was like, Oh, that ain't safe. Never do that again. Because here I am being judged. And he just brought that up. And it sounds a lot like what you're saying, there's like, there is probably a moment in all of this, where you had the negative feedback that got you out of the group, or ostracized or whatever, they didn't feel safe. The attachment was threatened. And it makes sense. Yeah, I love that I try to use it as often as possible now, cuz I just love like the it makes sense. Like, Duh, of course it does. And there's so much less judgement behind all my thoughts when I say that. And that's another thing that I got from you. So thanks. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis 46:25

I also appreciate just the joy piece, because some of us guys can get very nice, certainly me can get very serious about the work or pacing myself for being the best out I can be or whatever. And it can come at the expense of joy, right? It can, like I and it's I certainly did have experiences as a kid where joy wasn't cool either. It's like negative emotions aren't cool, positive emotions aren't cool. I'm just supposed to somehow like maintain this flatline. And, you know, it's a good, good thing if you want a certain social circle, and if you want a certain kind of life, but man, you're missing out on that range.

Curt Storring 47:01

Yeah, yeah. I think that's so important to remind guys, it's like, there's actually more out here, and there's hope. And that's why I just like sharing my story, because I felt hopeless, for so long. And now I don't. And so yeah, there's like, there is more out there. There's a larger world out there of friends and relationships than simply fitting in with guys who, you know, smoke weed all time and drink beer and talk about football. Right? You know, like, there's so much more out there. And I want to, I want to make sure I ask a couple questions, because I talked to guys in my men's group about, you know, what kind of things are you coming up with, with conflict? And they give me a couple of questions that I'd love your insight on. And one of them is like, how do you start? How do you make sure it's going to be received in a way that is not just like, Oh, you're attacking me? Is that like a deep breath and validation? Is there something that it's like? How do you start conflict in a way that is receptive?

Jayson Gaddis 47:52

Yeah, it's kind of like, how do we start a hard conversation, right? And if we can back up, back that up one step and say, Well, are you with the kind of person that is open to receptive to having honest, truthful, hard conversations? Have you chosen that kind of partner, and have the two of you talked about it and made an agreement? Like, it's okay to, that's okay. In our relationship, it's okay to bring up difficult things. It's okay to give each other feedback that's hard and sometimes critical. Like so in other words, we need to set the stage with the context of the role, the relationship has to be okay with conflict. And some guys have found themselves in relationships where they're never even had that conversation and they're trying to enter into a conflictual or potentially conflictual conversation. So those are just two different entry points right into the same thing is, what's my first step? Well, the first step is get the right context, then, then it's less steep, I think for you, but let's say either way, let's say the person isn't, you know, I didn't have that conversation. Okay, well, step one, have the conversation, make it okay, in your relationship, have an agreement that this is okay, because it's going to actually make us a more secure strong partner ship. And then how do we start is I like to lead with vulnerability. And it might be fear, it might be you know, some statement like, Hey, honey, I you know, can we talk tonight, Nines that, you know, whenever tomorrow morning? Yes. Okay, cool. And then when we're actually face to face is like, look, I want to bring up some difficult stuff here for me, that I'm scared to bring up because I'm scared it's gonna upset you. And then I'm gonna get upset and we're gonna it's gonna turn into something that I don't know how to deal with. But are you open and receptive right now to hear me out? And can we have a just an honest conversation about what's going on? And then I'd love to hear from you. Maybe this can open the door for us to get more honest here. Are you open to that right now? You know that that kind of vulnerability isn't it's an invitation versus leading with a complaint and then the very first thing I'm gonna bring up is, I'm going to take ownership for something I've been In an asshole lately, I've been on edge the last week, have you noticed that? Man, I've got so much going on inside and I feel just super stressed about money stressed at work done with this COVID thing, and I know that I'm edgy or to be around, and I've been kind of, I don't think I've been considering you lately and your feelings, that is going to go away better than, hey, and here's my complaint about you, than what's you so if I have a complaint, cool, you can bring that but it might be it's gonna probably go better if you lead with number one, some kind of personal responsibility. And then number two, some kind of empathic statement, then maybe the complaint The Empathic statement would be like, and I know you're really busy and I know you're really stressed and I know you've been holding a lot with the kids or your job and and then we can add the end and I feel X y&z about x y&z

Curt Storring 50:52

and that feels so good. Like, I just feel this blanket, almost of like calm and openness and empathy just listening to that. So thank you for sharing that.

Jayson Gaddis 51:02

Yeah, partner might not feel how Curt feels right? Your friend. Right? And what that will you do it right? And that's okay, if they get upset, it's okay, you got to stay in it. Right? Okay. So

Curt Storring 51:12

just stay in it then. Right? It's like, this is going to be hard, especially if she's not doing the same sort of work, you almost have to take the responsibility for going there anyway, while continuing to be vulnerable and empathetic is that

Jayson Gaddis 51:23

the That's right, that's gonna end to lower your expectations of this person, especially if you haven't talked about this or talk like this. Don't expect the red carpet when you come bring in your truth, you probably get should expect arrows, and blame and defensiveness and shutting down. Just expect that and then that'll give you you know, good information is like who you're with? And then Wow, can we, this doesn't feel great. Can we actually slow this whole thing down and get some help here? And we need to have these card conversations and ideally, your what someone's like, I agree, we've been kind of coasting here, and let's get in the game.

Curt Storring 51:59

Is there ever anything you can do if the person is just not like that?

Jayson Gaddis 52:05

Yeah, you have a couple of choices. You want to make always reasonable requests for behavior change. But I don't recommend asking people to change who they are. Right? And then it's leave, you know, if we're with people who are just probably not going to change who they are, because most people won't. That's okay. Like, it's not, that doesn't have to be a failure that their relationship doesn't work out. Because I'm a I'm a big fan of trying to help to people, be who they are, and be freely expressed inside the relationship. If we can't be who we are inside the relationship. That's a problem.

Curt Storring 52:38

Okay, I love that framework. Is there a way that you talk to people to stay calm and conflict? Like when they are perhaps more likely to be angry than their partner?

Jayson Gaddis 52:50

Like coaching? The person who's asking the question, how to stay calm? Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm in conflict with my wife. And I typically get big and explosive and scary. How do I stay calm? Because I'm feeling all these things. But I don't want to express them in a way that's like scary. Yeah, totally mean, scary, critical. Yep. Aggressive, all that. Yeah. So again, start with a view. And ideally, the two of you are educated on each other. Hey, honey, remember, on the reactive one, I get really big and scary. So so there's no secret about it. It's just out on the table, that this is how I am and you kind of get quiet and like a mouse and you kind of disappear. And this is our dynamic, you know. So again, if it's just named, that helps people's nervous systems, because it's, it's out in the open. It's not like someone's trying to pretend that's not there, right. So that's first and then in the moment, man, breathing is huge. Taking 10 breaths, three breaths, whatever works. couple short inhales, short exhales long exhales anything that helps bring on the parasympathetic nervous system a little bit. To keep us in the front part of our brain, quick mindfulness practice before like in the other room before I come into the room in the conflict, anything that's going to help in that way? Or hey, can we do a pause, honey? And I'm you can do you want, I'm just going to take a couple breaths, because I'm really heated right now. And I'm trying to calm down, just transparently out in the open in front of the person, that's fine, you know? Because if they're, if you tell them like, look, I'm actually trying to be able to handle my own emotions here and regulate myself in the midst of our conflict there. They're gonna feel like Thank you. That's considerate of me my feelings.

Curt Storring 54:32

Right. Okay. I love that. Thank you. I have one final one that I'd love to send your way before we have run a time here. But the question is, are there ever topics that we should just bury and never talk about again, and I kind of have an idea here what you're going to say, but could you please let us know?

Jayson Gaddis 54:48

Yeah, yeah. And I think you'd probably agree with me but I'm open to your your take to Curt. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that. I think it doesn't promote security. Now. Do I tell my wife every time I see someone I'm attracted to? Do I just kind of transparently just blurt it all out? Anytime it happens? No, of course I don't. So we're not talking about that level of transparency where every thought you have about another person, another woman or about yourself doubt or your money stress inside internally, you don't, you know, it's not about like you're sharing every thought all the time. You want your partner to feel like they know you like deeply, really, really well. They know your fears, they know your hopes, they know your dreams, they know what you're ashamed of, they know some of your history and some of your behavior that you've just really blew it in the past. And if you're not right with it in yourself, it's going to be hard to bring it out in the open. So I would encourage guys to, if there's a big thing, like, let's say you did something in college that you're like, fuck, if my wife finds out about this, you know, I'm screwed, well then go to a coach or a therapist and work on it. So that you're actually okay with, yeah, I can't change the past, but I can change how I feel about it. And you actually have a shift there, you could probably bring that up that kind of thing up with your wife, let's say in a way, and you know, front loaded, like, this is edgy stuff. I'm not proud of this. And I want you to know me, I don't want to hide here. That's cool. That's a that's an option. But I think a lot of guys are withholding stuff in the now like not something historical, it's something I'm doing currently. And if you are leaking energy, you have an emotional affair with someone you have really big feelings for someone at work, and they have big feelings for you bring that shit out in the open. Cuz that's going that's gonna go off the rails most likely, when you're emotional and you're high off this person or they're, they're high off you. I don't I recommend that stuff. Just get it out on the table, or it's gonna turn into something. Or if you're okay, she was let's say you put $100,000 in Bitcoin and you just lost it all. You don't want to hide that from your partner. It's like, it's our money, like, Hey, I fucked up here. Like bringing that kind of stuff up.

Curt Storring 57:08

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I think a lot of it on the more personal side just leads to resentment, if you don't bring it up, at least in my experience. And it's just a matter of finding the tools, which you've given us a lot of this conversation. So I really appreciate that man. Where can people find more about you? Where can they buy your book and work with you if they want to?

Jayson Gaddis 57:27

Yeah, so you can determine your conflict style if you want to find the book at getting to zero And that'll actually link you to all the places you could go to your local bookstore and request it's ordered. I always like that with people are in the local bookstore supporters go to that place and say, Hey, will you order this? I know it's more effort that we're so lazy these days with Amazon. And Amazon's fine. I don't care. Right? I just want the book in your hands. So you change your life. And then we're the let's see, our podcast is called the relationship school podcast. It's on all the podcast places. Website relationship I'm on Instagram I'm active there at Jason gas j y Sol goddess GDD is

Curt Storring 58:08

beautiful man. Well, thank you so much for this this has been more enriching than I anticipated and hoped and I had high hopes already. So I appreciate you very much brother thank you.

Jayson Gaddis 58:17

Yeah, and I can I just appreciate you real quick for sure Stop dude I it's just been really inspiring to see your growth you know from that you know hang time in Moab to right now in this moment. Like just how how you ferociously tackled your life and changing your life has just been so inspiring what you're dealing with yourself and your family and trying to help so many men it's just a fuck yeah. To how you're showing up in the world right now.

Curt Storring 58:44

And thank you so much. That means a lot to me. Totally. Thanks, bro. Yeah, alright peace

that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. It means the world to find out more about everything that we talked about in the episode today, including Show Notes resources and links to subscribe leave a review work with us go to That's DAD.WORK/POD type that into your browser just like a normal URL You'll find everything there. You need to become a better man, a better partner and a better father. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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