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Today’s guest is Joe Overmoe.

We go deep today talking about:

  • How Joe is using the Dad.Work “Yell Less” course to help inmates get their anger under control
  • Common patterns found among men and women who wind up in jail
  • The far-reaching, life-long consequences of our actions as fathers
  • The most helpful tools for navigating your anger

Joe Overmoe is a husband, father of two, and a Jail Case Manager at the Clay County Correctional Facility. He’s been running many of the inmates through the Dad.Work “Yell Less, Lead More” course and joined me to talk about what he’s learned.

#161. Anger Management for Dads and Inmates - Joe Overmoe

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[00:00:00] But, if you don't go through the pain of addressing, Hey, this is what happened. This is the negative things that I went through. This is what I feel has led to me being this way. Not blaming, but this is the path I've been down. Recognizing that and addressing that. Is so important to be able to come to that wholeness again

[00:00:27] Yes, welcome back to the Dad.Work Podcast. This is Curt Storring your host and the founder of Dad.Work I am joined today by joe overmoe and joe is a jail case manager at the clay county correctional facility

[00:00:37] Curt: And, this is crazy. Like, this is so interesting to me because you emailed me a while ago asking if you could run some of the people you work through, through one of our courses on anger. Where, where did that come from? Why is, what was the impetus for reaching out and maybe just give us an idea of what.

[00:00:55] Curt: Jail case manager actually means because we're going to get into Anger and the men and women you [00:01:00] work with and all this kind of stuff how it applies to fatherhood Um, but maybe just give us a quick intro like what do you actually do in a day to day and what made you reach out? in the first place

[00:01:09] Joe: for my work, I do . First off, it's case management. So someone's in jail and specifically people with mental health issues. You know, if they don't have housing, they don't have, you know, a job, don't have anything set up for insurance, anything like that, I'm here to help them get that stuff set up so that when they get released, 'cause eventually they will be released, they have a chance of not having to feel like they need to turn back to crime in order to survive and just to get things set up for them.

[00:01:40] Joe: Because if you think about it, you know, getting sent to jail, it's putting your whole life on stop. You don't get to, you know, hey, I'll be back to my job. You're just not there one day and for however long that is and then you're released and, alright, well my job's gone. Maybe I lost my place, maybe I lost all this stuff.

[00:01:59] Joe: And [00:02:00] specifically if you have mental health issues, it's just that much harder. I. To get that stuff going again. So my main role is in the case management. I work with a, a great therapist, uh, named Craig. He does, you know, one-on-one meetings with the inmates and he and I both actually lead, um, the groups that we do with the inmates.

[00:02:18] Joe: So that's anger management group. We have one on addiction and, um, P T S D and how they interact with each other. Um, and how I came to your stuff, it was honestly for myself, I was just feeling like I was kind of, you know, drifting along in life. I had, you know, my two kids had a, have a great wife, we have a nice place we live in, but I just felt like, I wasn't motivated and I didn't want to let this stage just 'cause I know how important this developmental stage is for kids.

[00:02:49] Joe: I didn't want this to just drift by where dad is off in another world mentally or where he's just, you know, angry all the time. I didn't feel like I, I, I've [00:03:00] had anger issues in the past, um, into adulthood. I felt like I had 'em under control. And then, um, I did forget to mention before I had this job, I was actually a correctional officer in this jail.

[00:03:12] Joe: And being in that role, the shift work that we were doing where it's that rotation, all these different things, I was finding myself snapping a lot quicker. I was getting a lot angrier. I was raising my voice. I wasn't happy with where I was at personally, emotionally. Changing my job was a huge thing for me.

[00:03:30] Joe: Being able to have that regular schedule, be able to be there for my kids, not have to leave my wife crying with kids, crying on her birthday to go work. And it was a lot of stuff piling on top of each other. And once I kind of felt like my physical, you know, I. Signals or whatever it was that was causing my anger were calming down with getting a regular sleep schedule.

[00:03:54] Joe: I was still finding that I had a lot of issues and one day I was, you know, mindlessly scrolling Instagram and came across one of [00:04:00] Kurt's things and I was like, oh, that's some good stuff. I'm gonna take the time to read this and read through it. I think it was one or two. And I was like, let's just reach out.

[00:04:06] Joe: Let's see, let's see what it would be to join the, the dad work thing. And I remember reaching out to you and I was like, how much would it cost to be a part of this? And, uh, my wife and I both do social worky jobs and, you know, you said your price. And I was like, oh, okay. Um, maybe in the future. But I was, I saw when I was looking through this stuff, I was like, oh, he has an anger group, you know, yell less, lead Moore.

[00:04:29] Joe: And I was like, I know for a fact that, you know, from my time as a corrections officer into my time with this job, a lot of the guys, a lot of the ladies, you know, they're just regular people like you and me who get pushed to that point where they just, they snap, they make one wrong decision. And then they get caught in the loop of going in and outta jail.

[00:04:50] Joe: Um, and especially those who've been in prison for a long time. Uh, always being on that heightened level of awareness, always being on that extra level of anger where [00:05:00] you and I might start out at a one or a two on any given day. I'm already a little pissed off. They're day in, day out. They're like a five or a six.

[00:05:07] Joe: So the littlest thing, it goes to violence. That's why you hear about, you know, fights in jail, fights in prison. And, um, so I wanted to, you know, have, have an impact on that. We had some good material we were going through in the groups, but just seeing what you'd posted online and reading some of the different things that you posted on Instagram specifically, um, I was like, this would be insane, uh, if we could go through this with the guys.

[00:05:32] Joe: So you and I talked back and forth and you were gracious enough to let me use the course for the groups, and they have been loving it, the inmates, Craig, the therapist I work with, along with the jail staff, the admin, they're absolutely over the moon with it, so,

[00:05:48] Curt: Wow, man, that, like I was saying before, um, that's very hard for me to fully grasp. It's really gratifying. I'm so grateful that, you know, cause this all [00:06:00] comes out of my own pain. I had to learn how to do all this because I was so bad. And so that's the whole point of dad work. And it's just like, this is not one of the things that when I started this, I could ever have envisioned.

[00:06:13] Curt: And it's so encouraging to me. That it can be brought to these new areas and that it just, it, it crosses cultures. It's not even just for dads. It's like, dads just don't usually have a way to learn this. Uh, it's not typically targeted at dads and we just don't listen. And then, yeah, you reached out and asked if you could bring it to your, um, the people that you work with.

[00:06:34] Curt: And I'm like, okay, sweet. And then you did. And you just like continue to give me, um, status updates because guys listening. We've got a course called yell less, lead more, uh, which is eventually going to be part of what we're coming out with in the near future ish. I'm going to give a little teaser. Um, we're going to have like an all access pass for all of our courses.

[00:06:55] Curt: Uh, you'll pay one small monthly fee and get access to everything plus community. So, [00:07:00] uh, anyway, this is a course that helps men, fathers, at least until this point, navigate why they yell, uh, how to stop yelling so much. And then hopefully understand the idea. Behind the yelling. And that's one of the things that I'm really interested in because you've been running these inmates through our course and the thing for me was like, Ooh, man, I bet there's something in here that would be really useful for dads.

[00:07:28] Curt: So that they understand. Why a lot of these people are in here in the first place and it can't be a blanket statement. It's not a panacea. It's not like if you do this to your kids XYZ, there's gonna happen, but there are underlying issues from what I understand. Is that something we want to talk about right now and just seeing like what are some of the things that have led to The inmates to where they are.

[00:07:52] Curt: Why are they operating at this higher level? And, and sort of, why are they in the positions they're in? Are there some historical [00:08:00] things that you're seeing that are across the board?

[00:08:02] Joe: Absolutely. Um, as far as just in general in prisons and in jails that we're in right now, um, it's when you're specifically in prison, any level of disrespect. It's just as far back as, as I've ever heard, any inmate share, any level of disrespect cannot be taken lightly because if, if you, you know, call me a name or take something from my food tray and I don't get back at you for it, there's going to be, it's gonna go on and on and I'm just gonna be, I'll never have food to eat.

[00:08:35] Joe: I'll be just ridiculed. And that's for years that you're in there and that sticks with you. And so I, it, it'd be great if they could all just be like, you know what, hey, let's, let's lighten up. And some of the, some of the older, uh, people that have been in prison for a while have learned to. You know, kind of temper themselves and give people breaks.

[00:08:53] Joe: But especially the younger guys that are going through, they're going in with, I've heard this is what I need to do. This is the way I'm going to be. Um, [00:09:00] and as far as what's getting them there in the first place, a lot of it I feel traces back to that, you know, absent parents or parents who were there but weren't, weren't there really, you know, me being present in the household, if I am, you know, always on my phone, if I'm always distracted, if I'm not there showing them their value and showing them how to act as an adult and how to care for people, they're not gonna learn that they're gonna look other places.

[00:09:28] Joe: Um, so for the inmates, a lot of it has been, you know, they had to, they say they had to grow up too quickly. They had to raise their own siblings. They had a lot of it is absent fathers where. You know, dad left. Um, and mom didn't handle it well, turned to drugs. And so they had to raise their siblings. They didn't have that chance to grow up, didn't have that nurturing, that caring.

[00:09:51] Joe: Um, and just this last week we were talking in our anger management group. We go through a couple different things in that group. And we were talking about, someone [00:10:00] was saying that they had to, you know, do that they had to grow up, they had to watch their siblings. And any emotion other than anger is kind of frowned upon.

[00:10:11] Joe: It's that, what are you weak? And one example I like to use with them, that a lot of the guys really latch onto is, I'll, I'll ask them, I'll re I'll point out to one guy and they're all wearing their, their jail blues. And I'll say, what color shirt are you wearing right now? And they'll go, oh, uh, blue.

[00:10:26] Joe: I was like, no, come on. Seriously, what color shirt are you wearing right now? It's blue. I was like, you're being, you're being a little bit of a wuss right now. And that's, you know, it's a tiny risk I'm taking, but they, they, uh, and then I'll, I'll follow that up though with, you know, this is what we're doing to ourselves when we say, I'm not allowed to cry.

[00:10:43] Joe: I'm not allowed to feel upset. I'm not allowed to do these things. And there's, it's almost like, just like a light flips in their minds because for so long it's been, I'm big, I'm tough. I don't have these feelings. You know, maybe I'll be romantic every once in a while, but otherwise, [00:11:00] I'm always posing, I'm always, they, they feel they have to emit that and they have to put that out.

[00:11:05] Joe: talking through that with them, I feel like that is one of the big things where they never had the chance to be a kid, never. Were taught that it's okay to have these range of emotions. I like to tell 'em, you don't need to cry in front of the Walmart cashier. I'm not asking you to cry in my group.

[00:11:19] Joe: But allow yourself to be sad, you know, to go through those things.

[00:11:24] Curt: Man, that reminds me that I'm just very grateful because on so many levels, a lot of the men that we work with, myself included, very well could have gone down that path. And the stories aren't that different, particularly what you said about having to grow up so fast. Like I have felt forever like I'm grown up and I really had to grieve the loss of what I perceived to be my childhood.

[00:11:51] Curt: It wasn't until I was able to fully go, Oh, I wish that didn't happen. I wish that I could have gone through my childhood and yet I'm never going to get that back. [00:12:00] Therefore. It's gone. Well, what happens then? Well, I had to go through the grieving process, which was immense sadness Like really immense sadness a lot of anger and frustration and almost some Not almost really some forgiveness To the people that I had originally blamed whose fault it wasn't it was all my responsibility as as an adult now to deal with it, but it's so interesting that We see these things playing out over a lifetime and it doesn't need to be this massive overarching trauma, although in many cases it is, it's just usually neglect, abandonment, unrealistic expectations of responsibility for a child.

[00:12:44] Curt: And then I think particularly what I see, and I'm curious if this is what you see as well, like I'm going to see. A child needing to develop an emotional digestive tract. And it takes like the whole childhood to do that. We're seeing from [00:13:00] our parents and those around us, how to be, how to feel, how to digest the emotion.

[00:13:06] Curt: And A, if our parents don't know how to do that, We'll never learn. But B, if they're gone, then of course, we'll never learn. So you grow up into looking like an adult, but you no longer have the tools to digest any emotion that comes up. Cause when I'm angry now, I can breathe. I can say my feeling. I can go work out for a minute and then I can get past it.

[00:13:28] Curt: Cause I know the broader perspective, but before. It would sort of get down there and just get lodged and be like, Oh, I'm really angry. I can't do anything about this other than get it out by yelling. So, um, have you seen something like that to be true as well, where there's just like no ability to process the emotion?

[00:13:45] Joe: And actually again, it was just this last week, we had a guy that he'd been in and out for a while and he, he raised his hand. He is like, Joe, I, I gotta ask you guys what if I'm always angry. And I said, what do you mean? He's like, when I'm, I'm always just [00:14:00] mad. I wake up mad and even when I'm happy, I'm mad.

[00:14:05] Joe: And. He was, he said, you know, I'll be laughing. I'll be having a good time, but I'm still mad and it's, it's part of me being happy. I'll get mad, which will make me happy. And it's that, I don't know if it was, you know, I can't remember exactly how we worded it, but as we were talking through it, the whole group, it, you know, it was again another case where he kind of had to grow up quickly and he never felt like it was necessarily okay for him to feel hurt, to feel mad.

[00:14:38] Joe: And what do I do when I get uncomfortable? I make a joke. What do I do when I feel, you know, embarrassed? I try to laugh. I try to lighten it. It's that diverting it away, which can be healthy in some cases, but it was for him and, and in addition to his just extended period of time in prison where he'd had that heightened sense, it was [00:15:00] that kind of, that I would almost say guilt is how we interpreted it.

[00:15:03] Joe: That I shouldn't be feeling this way, but I'm not supposed to. Um, something you mentioned about the, uh, you know, how we are passing on these things to our kids. It, it reminded me. We, I was watching something just the other day and um, this guy was saying that, you know, that figuring out the source of our personal trauma, our personal hurt, isn't looking to blame people.

[00:15:28] Joe: If my parents hurt me in some way because their parents hurt them in some way, sure, I could go down the line. It's not great. Grandpapa great-grandpa was hurt too. I, I'm not looking to do that. I could, but I'm not, it's, I'm not going to point blame. It's, it's no longer just on me. Yes, I made my decisions. I can only control myself, but why am I making these decisions?

[00:15:51] Joe: Oh, my parents did this to me, which has led me to be this way, and maybe their parents did to them, or maybe my parents just screwed up. [00:16:00] Because, yeah, it's, going through this course has just been really, really game changing for me as well as, you know, everyone that I've spoken to that has gone through it where it's just that, oh, shoot, it is okay, and taking the time to process.

[00:16:17] Joe: It's again, just been, just wildly game changing for a lot of people.

[00:16:23] Curt: I'm so glad to hear that, man. And that, what you just said reminds me a little bit of this idea that it's not your fault what happened to you. But it's now your responsibility to do something with that. And I think that for me was such a, it was a decoupling of the guilt and shame from being able to move forward.

[00:16:44] Curt: I was like, Oh, right. So it wasn't my fault. I don't have to feel guilt about being bad or not being a good enough kid or not being like lovable. That's somebody else and I don't need to blame them. I need to forgive and just acknowledge that that is true. Sure, whatever, but now I can't use that [00:17:00] as an excuse not to do anything.

[00:17:01] Curt: Now the onus is back on me and some people, I think having been through like a victim mindset for a long time, which maybe keeps them feeling safe, um, are having a hard time with that. And yet, Responsibility is the only way out of feeling like that all the time, because then it puts you in the driver's seat and you get to make new decisions.

[00:17:19] Curt: And I think that for me, this idea of starting again is really important. I sort of use this as a mantra for a period of my own growth was just like, Oh, I screwed that up. Start again because I would go through shame spirals right screw up and get angry and then I'd be like, oh no I'm so bad They deserve better than this and it would take like a week to get over that and so I was angry for a while Then I was ashamed and there was angry again and then ashamed it would just took up all of my time So, uh, maybe I'll just throw back to you in case anything came up there But I'm also curious about the shame spiral and if you've noticed that as well either in yourself or the people you work with

[00:17:58] Joe: Yeah. I feel [00:18:00] in both cases where it's, you know, I screw up or like we were mentioning before, those other feelings where I shouldn't be feeling this way. And so I'm getting mad and I'm mad and I'm acting out, and then I act the way I'm not proud of. And again, it's that spiral of over and over again. Um, but again, yeah, it's, it's been in myself as well as the guys.

[00:18:21] Joe: And something you were mentioning there about we're not casting blame and it's I'm no longer a victim. I love bringing that up to the guys because I'm, I'm not one to, you know, point out, Hey, you're acting like a victim, but changing that mindset of oh, woe is me.

[00:18:36] Joe: I had a bad childhood and absolutely, I'm, I always tell them, I'm not trying to diminish your guys' suffering. I'm not coming in here to offer you a oh 1, 2, 3. You should have known this. It's so much simpler. Your life is better now. You know, we come in saying, Hey, these are things that we've found work for us.

[00:18:52] Joe: We've never been in your shoes, but neither as a guy right next to you. And so, yeah, I use a lot of [00:19:00] analogies in my work 'cause that's just how I understand it and I feel the guys catch along with it as well. Um, but along the lines of like, that, not casting blame, but identifying kinda like what's causing this working out if, if I want to get fit, I don't just wanna sit here rotting away, always hurting, always sore.

[00:19:19] Joe: I need to start working out. And if I wanna work out effectively, I need to, you know, check. Alright, where do I need work? If I'm running a certain way and it's hurting, I need to identify what I'm doing that's hurting me. I'm not saying, oh, I'm a victim to my knee because I'm running weird. No. Alright. Hey, why does it hurt when I'm running?

[00:19:36] Joe: I've been wearing the wrong kind of shoes. Okay, I should change these shoes. And the same way with identifying, you know, what's causing my anger? Why am I acting out like this? I'm not looking to point fingers or to say I'm a victim here because i's what's great about taking responsibility. Yes, you have additional work to do, but I'm no longer sitting here.

[00:19:57] Joe: I'm just getting pushed around. I'm just, [00:20:00] it wasn't my fault. I'm just, I didn't try. It's, yes, I don't have to take, I feel like I'm kind of excused of the blame there, but when I can choose to, you know what, yes, I screwed up. I made a mistake. I'm gonna identify what I did and change and improve myself from here.

[00:20:16] Joe: I have the option then to actually take control and improve myself instead of just, I hope someone pushes me in the right direction. I hope I end up, you know, wealthy later on because of something so,

[00:20:26] Curt: Man, yeah, that's a really good point. And one of the things you said there reminded me that I think many of us in this modern day and age, which is so divorced from I'll say wisdom, generational wisdom from people who just, of course, that's how you live. Of course, that's why that happens. There's just an understanding.

[00:20:44] Curt: We've been talking about this in the podcast a little bit about generation, multi generational family visions. And so many of us are starting out on our own islands, separate from our parents wisdom. You know, our parents generation was separate from their parents. And then so far, [00:21:00] a few generations ago, something must've happened.

[00:21:02] Curt: But what that does is it. really isolates us in a way that we are not aware of the very basic parts of being human, which I think in this particular case means actions have consequences. And I don't just mean very personally when you make a decision, but if you were neglected as a child, it is very likely that whatever you're going to be angry, you're going to be upset, you're going to be identity seeking, you're going to be thrill seeking, whatever that thing is.

[00:21:32] Curt: Obviously, right? Like you're missing something that was so crucial to your development. You're going to try and fill that in with something. And it's not your fault that you're ignorant to that because nobody's told you. And that's what I had to understand. I didn't realize that, man, I don't have any of these skills.

[00:21:48] Curt: Nobody taught me any of these things. Nobody gave me any template. I didn't see it from my dad. I didn't know that it made sense that I was angry. And someone once told me. Hey, [00:22:00] uh, being, uh, having a boundary crossed is a very like obvious reason why you'd be angry. Like, of course, I was like, wait, what? Like I can not, you know, I'm using air quotes here, justify my anger by going, Oh, that's right.

[00:22:14] Curt: That, that didn't feel good. I thought I was just an idiot or I was just bad. And the same sort of thing. It makes sense that it would come out poorly if you've never been taught the emotional digestive tract. And so that's not to excuse the behavior, it's to go like, Bro, duh, like of course, and you shouldn't feel then worse than everybody around you going, Oh, I bet these guys know exactly what to do and nobody else is acting like this.

[00:22:39] Curt: Nobody else is an idiot like me. And that's what I would do internally. And so I think it's just so good to be like. Guys listening or whoever else, if you had a crappy childhood, you're probably gonna have some work to do. And that's okay. Cause I'm at the very least dad work is just a hopeful story because I was able to do this work.

[00:22:58] Curt: And that's [00:23:00] just what we can all hope to hope to do. Um, and so let me, let me just see if there's anything that you want to add to that before I jump into the next sort of what's been impactful of the course for everyone.

[00:23:09] Joe: biggest thing for, you know, you're talking about, oh, you know, I should have known that. I should have known this. It's so, again, something I'll share with the inmates, whether it's at the start of group or any point through it. Not all knowledge is shared. And specifically Kurt, do you know everything about your car that you drive?

[00:23:28] Curt: Absolutely not.

[00:23:29] Joe: So you couldn't take it apart and put it back together. Okay? But you're still able to live your life. There are people who know how to take apart that car, put it together. They could replace parts of it with a tin can. You're not a fool for not knowing that stuff. You've specialized in other areas.

[00:23:44] Joe: I certainly wouldn't look at you and say You're stupid. I would never look at you and say, this guy's, you know, useless in the world. I can't know everything. You can't know everything. There's going to be things that, you know, when they get revealed to us, of course I should have known that. But you can't see everything.

[00:23:59] Joe: [00:24:00] And again, it's not an excuse, but it's, I'm gonna give myself a break. I can't do everything. I can learn it, but I'm not gonna know everything just 'cause my dad knew how to do this. Just 'cause maybe even everyone else in the room. Knew how to do this. Doesn't mean I needed to. It's just my job to learn it.

[00:24:17] Joe: If I need to learn it, I can do that.

[00:24:19] Curt: That's really well said. That's definitely something that I need to hear personally Because I do take I won't say pride. That's not the right thing But I I do like to be good at a lot of things And I often have to temper myself when I don't know to just go Oh yeah, I don't know, instead of what I see a lot of people doing.

[00:24:40] Curt: And I would do this earlier on, like in, um, grade school, if someone said, Oh, you don't know that? I'd be like, Oh yeah, no, no, of course I do. Like, I just didn't hear the question. Like, of course, cause I wasn't as I wasn't feeling as safe then nowadays it's taken a lot of work, but I'm more comfortable saying, no, I don't know that, like, what do you mean?

[00:24:59] Curt: And even if it [00:25:00] is, like you said. Well, everyone knows this and I'm like, well, I don't, but that's taken specific work, like really specific work because the alternate of that is that if I say I don't know it, I believe that you're going to see me as less than or see me as other outside of the community where I would feel safe.

[00:25:18] Curt: And so it's more important for me to feel safe as part of a group than it is for me to be honest with you about my shortcomings. And I think that's a fair trade off if you don't know the importance of the difference of integrity. and honesty outside of, or even your own personal value. Like, dude, I took so long.

[00:25:37] Curt: I'm still learning it to understand that I have value as me imperfectly as I am. I thought for the longest time being a perfectionist that I had to perform. I had to carry the weight of the world. Everybody's emotions around me. That was now on me. And guess what? My upbringing means that I can handle that for a long time, way longer than a lot of other people, but [00:26:00] not indefinitely.

[00:26:01] Curt: And so even recently I've noticed the crumbling happening in my life because I've been trying to put on stuff that's not mine. And so my work right now is very much about this, which is I'm okay being me. And that's, that's tough, man. I don't know if there's anything to

[00:26:17] Joe: It's . It's not easy, especially when you know who's always in your head, who's always talking to you. know, if I say, Kurt, that's a fantastic shirt. I can, I mean, I'm not gonna put this on you, but for me, someone says something, Joe, I love this shirt. My first thought is okay. But you know, it's that questioning things.

[00:26:36] Joe: Um, you were talking about . You know, not knowing everything but wanting to appear as though I do, or, yeah, I may know it, but one of my favorite examples we use in group is I'll go up to the whiteboard and I'll just draw, you know, whatever you call this ship, you could say it's a T whatever. I'll ask around the group.

[00:26:53] Joe: Alright guys, what did I just draw on the board? Oh, it's a T. Oh, it's a plus sign. It's a cross. It's uh, whatever they want to, [00:27:00] you know, they can go on on cross hairs and I'll go. Any of those answers could be true. I didn't tell you what it was and maybe, I don't know if I drew it up there and I meant it to be a plus sign.

[00:27:12] Joe: Okay, it's a plus sign, but the person sitting next to you may never have done math class. They may see it as, oh, it's a cross. Obvious. It's a cross. I never would've thought of it as a cross, and maybe he's entirely wrong, but maybe he's seeing something. I'm not. I mean, you see those pictures where you turn 'em one way.

[00:27:30] Joe: It's a lady, it's upside down. It's a rabbit. Even things that I know about I lately, it's been something I've been growing into where it's, I want to ask and get perspective on it because I understand this, I feel I completely understand this thing, but someone else has been sitting at it, looking at it from a different angle, and maybe they have a better understanding of the side.

[00:27:53] Joe: I've never been on and seeing it as a growing opportunity instead of, [00:28:00] man, this guy's an idiot kind of thing. Because I 100% have that where people just think I'm an idiot. People just, they tolerate me. They just, you know, they're waiting for me to leave. I didn't know this stuff. They don't want to be around me.

[00:28:13] Joe: But then it's, no, people are, are happy to help. I know for me, I look at the, you know, the people I'm with that I work with, I'm . More than happy to help when they come to me for something. I don't think anyone's ever asked me a question and be like, what's this idiot doing? Are they seriously in the same room right now?

[00:28:31] Joe: They should go home. No. I mean, but in my mind I'm like, this is what everyone's thinking. You know? But I absolutely get that. That's, it's tough, but it's,

[00:28:40] Curt: Dude.

[00:28:41] Joe: it's important to face that.

[00:28:43] Curt: That's actually something I'm working on in this moment, like this month, my mentor is running me through, I think it's called story work or something like that, where I was supposed to write out the internal bully voice that lives in my head. And that is absolutely a [00:29:00] deep seated thing in my life too, which is everyone is tolerating me and it requires me to operate at a 100 percent because even 99.

[00:29:09] Curt: 9. Is not good enough and people will be like, ah, you're not helping me anymore. Get out of here So I just want to say I resonate with that and I see you on that and I also have never said Oh, you dummy. I can't believe you don't know this like of course i'm not gonna help you never in my life and no I just put myself oh and so interesting too because Imagine the selfishness that it takes to say that I'm so special that nobody else is like this.

[00:29:33] Curt: I'm willing to help everyone, but I can't be helped. I am so special. And I've sat in enough groups to know that specialness isolates. And it's not that you're not actually special as a human being. We all are. That's fine. But you're not like so unique that your perspective has never been seen before. And that is just one of those things that guys come into groups and they're like, yeah, but you don't understand.

[00:29:56] Curt: And like you said before, like, no, I don't, I've not lived your life, but. In [00:30:00] my experience, there's like 10 ish sort of paths of suck of, you know, a child's life or whatever. And we all fit into sort of one of those 10. And anyway, yeah, I just, I just want to tell the guys listening, like you're not so unique and that's a good thing.

[00:30:15] Joe: It's Walmart. If I've been to Walmart in my town, if I, if there's a Walmart and you're town, if I go there, it may be a slightly different layout. There's a couple different layouts they do, but I can find the chips, just because they out differently. It's brand new and it had a lot of, you know, all these other things. it's I can still find the things that are still gonna be there. Um, but it's kind of that acknowledging that, Hey, that sucks. I'm sorry you went through that, but this can still be true. You know, one big thing before I, I just wanted to mention before moving on here, is, uh, with accepting that positive feedback from people and accepting it's something I, I just last night was texting someone I was struggling with.

[00:30:59] Joe: Um, [00:31:00] It's, it's a saying I heard from somewhere, if I give you a compliment, you know, and you have difficulty accepting it. He says, I'm gonna give you these flowers. You can choose to water them or not. I can give you a compliment. I mean, it, you can choose to accept it or not. For me, the, the, the longest time people say, Joe, you, you did great at this.

[00:31:18] Joe: I'm like, okay, sure. They're just saying it. But what is that say? What am I saying about them? This person's a liar. This person's just full of it. They're just trying to, wouldn't spend time around those people, you know, , the people that I spend time around I like to think are decent people. Uh, so just kind of that self-monitoring of they're giving me flowers.

[00:31:36] Joe: I'm uncomfortable, but I need to water them. I need to accept that and not throw 'em on the ground and, you know, throw a fit like I want to my mind. So,

[00:31:45] Curt: Yeah. No, I have struggled with that in the past as well. And I have been, intentionally seeking the gracious acceptance of gifts and blessings and just compliments like that. And it is so [00:32:00] uncomfortable because I feel so vulnerable and open because I'm like, okay, if I accept this, you're going to be like, Oh no, I didn't mean it.

[00:32:07] Curt: I caught you. You're not supposed to have this. You're not allowed to have this. How dare you?

[00:32:10] Joe: of trash

[00:32:10] Curt: Yes, exactly, man, the voices in our heads, man, we must have had some similar experiences along the way. But this idea of gracious acceptance, and it's the same sort of thing. I've heard it before, which is like, what does it say to the person giving?

[00:32:25] Curt: If you're like, Oh no, I can't accept that they're like, bro, you're stopping me from doing something I want. You're actually putting like the kibosh on me having the completion of the gifting cycle. Like wow, that's rude. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, oh man. Yeah,

[00:32:41] Joe: And for the guys who were just listening on a podcast, I wish you could have seen Kurt when I was early when I was using that example of, like I said, that Kurt, that shirt looks great on you. There was this . You know, this little cringe and I was like, oh, maybe I'll use myself on this.

[00:32:53] Joe: I don't wanna make Curt feel, but it's, oh man, I, I 100% get where you're coming from there and it's, yeah.

[00:32:59] Curt: Yeah, man, [00:33:00] it's, it's deep. And I think this is why it's important for me to go through with my mentor right now. Cause it's just like. I've done so much of this work, obviously to be here and to be helping guys with this work. I've had to go through some, but like to your point, I don't know all of it, but for me, I noticed that the more that I clear away, the more that I noticed that it's just like roots that are left.

[00:33:20] Curt: It's not necessarily the foliage and I'm like, Oh, I can't see anything. I'm being battered left, right, and center. It's when I come to new things that I've never experienced before, the tendrils of those old. Uh wounds will still be there and i'll have to get rid of them in that specific area So these things come up occasionally you're never going to be perfect.

[00:33:40] Curt: You're never going to be fully free of them I don't think but learning how to navigate them with grace Is I think the mark of a good man in many ways because we're looking i've told my guys all the time like we're not looking for a perfectly even life. Like you're not going to come into my program and get this, ah, everything's good now.

[00:33:58] Curt: You just have to go through these, you know, steps. [00:34:00] You're going to have the same crap happen to you, but hopefully you'll act differently. And so it's about navigating the bad stuff, not never having bad

[00:34:08] Curt: stuff.

[00:34:08] Joe: I feel it's,

[00:34:09] Curt: but I'm also, sorry, go

[00:34:10] Joe: it's important to. Not necessarily celebrate, but like acknowledge and let that past stuff that you've gone through play a role in who you are. You know, you someone who's had their legs amputated, they don't just sit there, oh, you know, I guess I can't move around. No. They learn new ways.

[00:34:27] Joe: You know, they get a wheelchair, whatever, they, I have a scar on my arm. It's gonna be there for life. I can do things to treat it, but hey, I now know not to try to drop it on a skateboard, on aquar, on a, you know, quarter pipe the wrong way. It's learning from our experiences and not forgetting the lessons we've learned.

[00:34:45] Joe: But hey, now I know to avoid this and I went through that. Me to forget that and to just block it out would be foolish because, alright, next we're gonna go try skateboarding and gonna do the same exact thing because I just tried to brush it under the rug and forget it. So, [00:35:00] letting those passings that we've gone through, not define us, but you know, be something that we can learn from and grow from.

[00:35:07] Curt: Absolutely. The question that I'm curious about now is what's been most impactful inside this course. Because we talk about a broad range of things from in the moment to long term, to journaling prompts, to all this stuff on how to yell less and hopefully lead more in your own life. Um, but are there things in that that you've noticed hit or people are using or that were useful to you?

[00:35:31] Joe: in the moment, tools have been really, really good. Really game changing. For like the ones where it's about myself, Craig, the therapist, I love. We live and breathe The 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 grounding method. It's, Craig said it's, you know, saved, it's saved his life. He had been going through a really, really rough time and he said I was sobbing at my desk one day and just looking through resources, trying to find what I could do and he'd had that 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, printed out [00:36:00] that five things you can see, four things you can feel.

[00:36:04] Joe: Three things you can hear, two things you can smell, one you can taste, and it's just about being present and he uses it. We use it for anger, anxiety, just moment to moment. That one is we, like I said, we live, eat, and breathe that one in the jail because being present, not depressed and distracted by the past or anxious and worried about the future being here.

[00:36:26] Joe: Um, those in the moment things, uh, have been hugely impactful. 'cause we don't have people in the jail typically for, uh, an extended, extended period of time. I'd say maybe six months is maybe the long average. A lot of people are in there shorter. We've had a couple that have stayed longer, but it's, so we're not always seeing the big picture, what they've gone through.

[00:36:49] Joe: But we do see the, that almost immediate change of, Hey, I recognized I was getting mad because I'm noticing the physical changes in my body from the um, Um, [00:37:00] visualizing success. That one's huge. They love that one. 'cause again, it's in the moment, but it's also a prepared thing because you're preparing yourself for in that moment, alright.

[00:37:10] Joe: You know, oh, I'm feeling this tightness and I'm starting to get angry. This is the very start of it. I, I was, one day, I was doing it in the office just at the start of the day. And, uh, I was sitting at my computer, Craig was sitting on his computer. I I was just, holy crap, Craig. He's like, what? What's going on?

[00:37:27] Joe: I was like, my throat tightens up. He's like, what? I was like, when I'm angry, I didn't recognize this, but through doing this thing, my throat tightens up. It makes it hard for me to breathe. And obviously I don't like feeling that way. And when I recognize that it's that flashing red light, it's that trigger for me to, alright, I need to either leave the room, take a deep breath, slow myself down.

[00:37:47] Joe: Um, but we, we've walked through that with the inmates a couple times and it's, there's always after the, after we finish it, it's that. . Just like, holy crap. I just recognize, and I [00:38:00] love the beauty of that meditation where it's, you know, I'm gonna scan my body. I'm not judging myself for how I'm feeling. I'm just noticing it, thinking through that situation.

[00:38:09] Joe: And then what, what are they feeling? Like actually picturing it. 'cause in that moment, you know, you're, it's, it's red, you know? And it's just, how do I stop this? I can't breathe. I'm frustrated, but no, why are they doing this? And then I've thought through, what's a loving way, A way I could be proud of, I could respond.

[00:38:28] Joe: And each time it, I feel like I'm almost brought to tears where it's like, gosh, I want that for them so badly. Yes. My kids, there's times when I'm just at my wit's end with them. There's times when, you know, they've done something at school or at daycare and it's why, you know, and, but they're, you know, that overarching is just, I just want them to feel safe and loved and being able to come through myself.

[00:38:53] Joe: My relationship with my daughter has changed entirely since I started doing this course where before dad was, you know, [00:39:00] and it still is where I'm somewhat of the disciplinarian and mom's more of the tender person, but it's come to the point where she'll get frustrated and she'll come to me for a hug because she knows dad is there to sit, hug me and talk through, okay, it seems like you're this way.

[00:39:14] Joe: It's, you know, you seem that looks like it would really be hurtful, or, you seem really frustrated. I get that, you know, let's talk through it. So that's been really big. The, in the moment things are huge. Um, I, I did kind of tweak what you had said in one of the courses. I, I tell the guys that, especially with kids, I try to bring it to below zero what I say.

[00:39:37] Joe: If my regular talking voice, my regular moving around stature is this much, I wanna bring it below that. 'cause especially with kids, my daughter is maybe a third as tall as me, easily three or four times lighter than I am. . So now imagine someone who's three times as tall as you, you know, three or four times heavier than you saying anything.

[00:39:59] Joe: You know, [00:40:00] Hey, I love you. Can you quiet down? No, I'm terrified. You know, I'm screaming. Especially when they're worked up, when they're, you know, at their wit's end taking time, I'm gonna, you know, I'm telling them, not verbally, but through my actions, I'm stopping what I'm doing. I'm getting down to your level.

[00:40:16] Joe: I'm quieting myself. I'm slowing my breathing. I'm just here for you. Let's communicate and modeling that behavior that we want for them. If someone, if I'm upset and someone screams quiet down, I, I will do the opposite as much as I can because I'm pissed off. Someone comes in, Hey, what's going on? One of my favorite things from when I was a co a correctional officer was, you know, when we were working up in booking people, that's where the people would usually be, the angriest.

[00:40:44] Joe: They came in high drunk, just angry, really frustrated. No one's happy to come to jail. And there were some people who would just be screaming, acting out, you know, just anything they could do to express that anger and being able to go up to them and, [00:41:00] you know, maybe call out their name kind of loud, but then intentionally lowering my voice and slowing my speech.

[00:41:07] Joe: There were more than I can count people who otherwise would've had to face some kind of disciplinary measures to keep them from hurting themselves, or I would've had to been restrained that were able to come down and just, I'm really hungry. I, I miss the food. You know, it's like, Hey, let me go see if I can get you a sack lunch.

[00:41:22] Joe: So a ton of those in the moment. Things have been great. Um, also the, um, I think it's module nine where you're getting to the root of the problem, even just explaining that to the people that we've given you crutches, which are very important, but you do need to heal the, the wound. Um, Just this last Sunday, my pastor was sharing a story about in football when he was in high school.

[00:41:49] Joe: He thought he dislocated his finger coach tried to reset it a couple days later it was still hurting. You'd make a fist and it was off to the side, had to go to the doctor. The doctor had to re-break that bone and [00:42:00] absolutely, that was horrible. I'm sure I, I got, you know, lightheaded thinking about it. But if you don't go through the pain of addressing, Hey, this is what happened, this is the negative things that I went through, this is what's, you know, I feel has led to me being this way.

[00:42:16] Joe: Not blaming, but this is the path I've been down. Recognizing that and addressing that is so important to be able to come to that wholeness again. 'cause if I try and ignore those pieces back there, me, 'cause they are pieces of me, they're part of who made me. I'm not gonna make a hole. I if I don't have every single broken piece.

[00:42:37] Joe: To put back together, there's going to be pieces missing. So bringing all those broken pieces together and finding some way, you know, to be made whole. It's, it's, you're, you're doing next level stuff here. It's, you're, the stuff that we've been going through with, with your work has been just life altering for quite a few people.

[00:42:57] Joe: So

[00:42:57] Curt: Man, thank you. That's not that's [00:43:00] not why I asked the question just so you guys know Uh, but I did want to hear like what was most Um useful so that you guys and the audience can hopefully take that but man, I do appreciate you saying that Um, I think it's good stuff and it's really important to hear that.

[00:43:12] Curt: It's also helpful for other people who are not me Um, and that's just wonderful. And I think a couple things that I just want to touch on what you said Almost, there's a couple of tactical things, um, and then that final piece about sort of, uh, healing in two steps. But the couple of tactical things is, if you do not have a quiet time, if you do not have a time when you sit and notice your body, if you don't take five or ten deep breaths every morning when you wake up and just feel What you feel.

[00:43:40] Curt: If you don't work out regularly, if you don't go for walks regularly, if you're constantly distracted on your phone or thinking about stuff, you're never going to feel the physiological sensations that are key markers of the crescendo to anger. And this was a game changer for me when I slowed down and I built in quiet time into my day and I started [00:44:00] noticing What do I feel like right now?

[00:44:02] Curt: Oh, there's some anxiety. Well, how do I know that? How do you know when you feel anything? Well, there's a physical sensation almost all the time. For anxiety, it's like my heart gets a little bit tense. It gets a little bit racy. It comes up in my throat. Uh, like my, my body almost vibrates a little bit. And for anger, like you were saying, the throat closes or my fists clench, or I feel almost like flames rushing up my abdomen to my throat.

[00:44:25] Curt: All of those things can let you know before it's too late. What you feel. And so for me, I used to not be able to tell I was angry until I was like, already at a nine out of 10. And by that point, you're like, you have to be really, really good at doing the, in the moment crutches, as you said. But why wouldn't you just want to notice when you're like at a three and you're like, Oh, I can feel this is angering me.

[00:44:49] Curt: Like I should take a step back. I should ask the kids to be quieter. Like I should do something early to stop this progressing to a 10/10 where I cannot hold it back any longer. So. [00:45:00] Number one tip guys, make sure you have some quiet time so that you can feel your physiological body side note I think a lot of us the modern problems we have are just because we're not very good at being human Like how much time we get outside?

[00:45:10] Curt: How much time do we sleep? How much time do we exercise? What do we actually eat all those things? But the second thing that I wanted to point out is you did a great job Communicating empathy and validation which are two enormous parts of our like communication formula if you will And what you said is, you know, getting down on their level, but then the words that you choose to say are not like, Oh, what's wrong?

[00:45:32] Curt: What are you doing that for? Oh, just calm down. You're like, Oh, that looks like you're really frustrated right now. That makes sense. And just those two things, like try that with your wife, try that with your coworker, try that with your kid. Empathy and validate. Empathize and validate, I should say. And the final thing, I'm going to pass it back to you for a sec, um, is that I just made a post on this on Instagram because it's like an idea that keeps coming up to me.

[00:45:55] Curt: Is that the healing process on this is a two stepper. Like, [00:46:00] it's like breaking a leg. You take a step and you're like, Oh, ow, man, that hurt. And that's what happens when you're getting angry or getting quote unquote triggered by your kids, your wife, or something at large society at large, you're walking on a wound, which is an emotional wound.

[00:46:16] Curt: And you're like, ouch, that hurt. And so just like having a broken leg, what's the first thing you do? Get off of it. Stop walking on it. Get some crutches. And those are what you just talked about those in the moment things to stop you from reacting poorly But at some point you don't just want to be on crutches your whole life and the emotional side of thing You know time and maturity can indeed help a little bit But I have found that there's often that deeper surgical need to go in there and figure it out And that's the journaling the deep journaling.

[00:46:48] Curt: That's the having a person typically a man to Like just speak your life story, your pain, your history, your mood, your emotions. Um, that is potentially counseling. [00:47:00] That's like all of this really deep work to go back and also forgiveness. That is the thing that I think can wipe out a lot of this. And just for me personally, like adding Jesus to the mix has been a massive game changer to this.

[00:47:12] Curt: Um, because man, like I can't carry the weight of all that. And I am just called to forgive, forgive, forgive now. So, uh, that's been a huge game changer, just even the last. Year and a half, cause that's been new in my life. Um, but anyway, I wanted to get touch on those three things that you said. So people didn't, uh, just, you know, pass on without understanding that they're very important points.

[00:47:30] Curt: So, um, let me pass it back to you.

[00:47:32] Joe: Yeah. Um, with all this stuff. Uh, and each, each time we're going through it, I kind of like, come on Joe. 'cause I do not journal daily. I'm not perfect every day in, you know, doing these meditations. And my biggest thing for just everyone is that we're not gonna be perfect. Don't look at, you know, that I missed these days.

[00:47:55] Joe: I, I missed that. It's, you know, no one's going to be perfect. It doesn't mean [00:48:00] that what you're doing if you jump back into it doesn't matter. Um, in the jail, when I'm talking to the guys through this, I'll say, guys, I've been, I've been playing the drums for over 20 years. I still mess up. If I mess up, should I throw my drumsticks in and say, this is stupid.

[00:48:14] Joe: Screw it. You know what, I'm done. I'm reselling everything. No people who've been drumming for two times, three times as much as I have, are still going to make mistakes. We're going to have the days we miss. It may be longer. , you know, but being able to give ourselves a break and that, hey, I'm in a healing process.

[00:48:32] Joe: Maybe I need some time to just take a deep breath and then I can jump back in. 'cause it is hard work. This isn't, you know, just, oh, 1, 2, 3, you're on your way. I was, uh, you know, when, when I first went through the course, I was basically just typing up stuff, just like, you know, making it so that it worked for the course.

[00:48:51] Joe: I've been taking the time to go through, slowly read it, do the journaling prompts, and just yesterday I was, I was crying, you know, I was talking to my [00:49:00] wife and I was like, it was, I, I wanna say it was module two or module three, and I was like, it was the question, you know, what's something that you haven't told your spouse?

[00:49:07] Joe: And I, I was, when I was filling it out, I was like, at my son's appointment, I was just, you know, sitting in a waiting room. I was like, am I getting sad right now? You know, and then I got home and I was like, my wife's like, what's wrong? I was like, I don't know, I think I just need to talk to you about some stuff.

[00:49:20] Joe: And I just shared that stuff with her and it was . Oh man. It, you know, it's, it's not fun to cry, but it's, it is so healing and especially with a loved one, your spouse. I, I'll use the example in the jail where Craig is, you know, the therapist is sitting next to me and I'll put my arm out onto his chest and I'll say, Craig, I want you to come closer to me.

[00:49:43] Joe: He'll try. And he is like, I can't. I said, no, Craig, come on. I want you to really get to know me. Gimme a hug. And he can't. And I say, I need to make myself vulnerable. Craig can't. Yeah. I'm keeping Craig at distance. He can't hit me. He can't, you know, do anything to hurt me. But I have to open myself up [00:50:00] if I want to have any closeness.

[00:50:02] Joe: Closeness and really have that time with my spouse to really get to know her and to build that relationship, letting them know that I'm struggling here, the going through this stuff. I mean, I remember the first time I caught myself getting mad at my son.

[00:50:18] Joe: It was, you know, before bed. I was tired. He wasn't doing anything particularly bad. You know, he is just asking a million questions before bed as kids. Do. You know, they're curious. I'm a curious guy, but he, I remember he was asking these questions and I could feel myself getting upset and I was like, wait, what's going on here?

[00:50:37] Joe: He's just, he's just curious. He feels safe talking to me about this stuff, and the feeling of being able to catch myself and, you know, beforehand was great, but also once I'd failed, there's been times where I've, I have yelled at my son and then I'm, shoot, I just yelled, buddy. I'm sorry. I should not have yelled.

[00:50:57] Joe: I got upset. I had a long day, [00:51:00] but that's a not anex excuse. You didn't deserve to be yelled at. This isn't on you. I just got overwhelmed. I shouldn't have done that. I'm really, really sorry. You didn't deserve that. It hurts, you know, and it's not, you know, I'm not running to the room to go tell 'em that.

[00:51:13] Joe: But again, it's that, Hey, I'm your dad. You look up to me for everything. I'm the one, you know, I feed you. I'm the person who provides for you, and I want you to know that I'm not perfect. And that's been a thing for me that's just kind of been shifting in the last, I wanna say year. I never idolized my parents or anything.

[00:51:33] Joe: I never assumed they were perfect, but I had good parents. You know, my dad gave me a lot of great advice. You know, learning to be comfortable sitting in a car alone with no music on stuff like that. You know, the importance of our words. A ton of really good stuff. They were good parents. But you know, coming to the realization that.

[00:51:51] Joe: they were just winging it on some things just like I am. They didn't have everything figured out. And again, it's [00:52:00] not that they were hiding those things from me. It's not that they were, to be manipulative, but I just, I've had the realization that I want my kids to know that I don't want 'em to see me, dad's freaking out, doesn't know what to do, but know that, hey, it's okay to struggle. It's okay to have these things and, you know, obviously take responsibility for your actions, but if you've made a mistake, it's never too late to stop. And I'll tell the guys in the jail, if you're getting angry and you've thrown a plate, and the shattering glass is a thing that, oh, shoot, I'm mad.

[00:52:30] Joe: It's never too late to take off, out that door to run, you know, to stop. Um, it's never, ever, uh, too late to stop. And it's, it's actually really rewarding to recognize, Hey, I yelled, but I didn't, you know, I didn't slam his door, I didn't do this or that. Um, it's those victories. One other thing that I, I actually want to challenge you, Kurt, on, uh, you mentioned about your anger getting up to a nine or a 10.

[00:52:55] Joe: One thing we talk about in the jail is about an anger rating scale and[00:53:00] starting zero, no anger, and then choosing to make 10. If I am not arrested and taken to prison or to jail, someone is going to die. There's nothing that will stop me. And when I, when I rate it that way, and these scales are gonna be custom for you, where like, Hey, number two, I might just be getting a little upset, but, you know, number seven, it could be I'm screaming, another person might not, you know, someone else, it could be, oh, I'm, I'm hitting someone.

[00:53:26] Joe: I don't, I'm not a hitter, but hey, for me, maybe it's, I slam a door, that's my seven, but rating it to where like the number 10 is where I need . To be arrested. I need someone to restrain me right now because there's power in that one because it's, I feel it's more of a accurate representation of where we're at in our anger.

[00:53:45] Joe: And it can be a warning sign that I'm at a nine. If I get a little bit angrier, I need, I do need to run, I need to call someone for help. But at the same time, if I'm getting so pissed off, I'm like, oh man, I'm, I'm just, I'm like at a nine right now [00:54:00] and I go, well, am I, um, uh, maybe I'm, shoot, actually I'm just a really heated three.

[00:54:07] Joe: You know, how, how amped up am I Right Then, you know, man, you're a 10 outta 10. No, you're probably like a three. It's like, oh, okay, maybe I'm not, but also I'm then able to recognize, hey, if I am at a nine or say I'm at an eight, alright, what do I need to get do to get down to that one step beneath? 'cause there again, there's power in defining those things where.

[00:54:28] Joe: Instead of just, I'm the maddest I've ever been. Well, that's not true. I've been so mad. I was shaking and and crying in front of my boss. It was embarrassing. I'm not doing that right now. I'm just really pissed off. Alright, let's be realistic. What do I actually need to do at this stage? I don't need to go, you know, call for someone to restrain me.

[00:54:47] Joe: I'm not actually at that level. I need to take some deep breaths and bring myself back down so

[00:54:52] Curt: man. I love that because. That's almost like a point of, I never would even have thought that I could legitimately get that angry. And I [00:55:00] am the type of person who will think about the, like, just the worst case scenario a lot of the time. And I'm like, Oh, if something happened to people that I love, like I would probably do

[00:55:09] Joe: I could kill someone. Yeah.

[00:55:11] Curt: for, for sure.

[00:55:12] Curt: Like those thoughts definitely come up. Right. And it's like, okay, well. I can't even imagine getting close to that anymore. And therefore, like my range, thank God, is probably like maybe a four at the worst sometimes. And like, sure, I could be pushed to the edge, but wow, that is very humbling in one sense because man, thank God that I've never made it to eight, nine, 10 with this range.

[00:55:35] Curt: Man, yeah, no, I'm, I was thinking that my, the ten, so to speak, was the emotional threshold at which I then acted physically. But I love this because that's not the end. There's so much more. And then like you said, if you know that there's a concrete measure to take you from a seven to a six, and you do that, and then you see success and the victory brings more momentum.

[00:55:57] Curt: Brings you down the scale dude. Amazing. Thank [00:56:00] you. And also I wanted to just like, Tell you awesome job for doing the actual journaling because I know and I can't believe it's like this because Personally, i'm not like this. So when I heard the stats, I was like, are you kidding me? But most people who buy courses Don't actually finish them.

[00:56:16] Curt: Something like 3 percent or 8 percent or something crazy. And so to actually do the work instead of just like watching the video is next level. And then you get something like this out of it. Where you get to put down that shield and be like, Hey babe, like there is this thing that's going to bring us closer together, even though it will hurt for a second.

[00:56:35] Curt: So that is a beautiful thing. And I'm really glad that you did that. Um, and the repair piece. I know we're at the top of the hour so I won't take too much time. The repair piece saying sorry to your child, letting them know that it was unacceptable and that it's not them. But that you were feeling something and didn't have the skills and the capacity to stop very important.

[00:56:55] Curt: It's not about never getting angry again, in my opinion, it's about repairing [00:57:00] well when you do. And then I think the final thing that I just want to touch on here is when you put your arm out like that, it reminded me exactly of how I see the ego. And I don't know anything about... Psychotherapy beyond like pop psych and whatever you see on Instagram and all that kind of stuff.

[00:57:15] Curt: And okay, I've done some reading But like that's it. I'm not an actual psychiatrist But when I think about the ego, I think about like the first act of self love In a sense that your body tries doing or your brain tries doing to you, which is it keeps you apart from the pain that is, um, likely to make you feel on the verge of death as a child.

[00:57:37] Curt: So for example, if when I'm two or three and my dad leaves and my mom's really upset or sad or whatever, I need to put up some boundaries. That keep me hidden from the real world in a sense so that I can navigate it because it seems too scary to be Actually in reality and what I see happen here and the reason i'm talking about this is because of that analogy that you said with the The hand [00:58:00] stopping you from getting any closer is I saw my own version of that I call this ego like a self defense mechanism I saw my own version of that as though I had a carpenter living in my head and he was like a carpenter who designed sets for plays and theater productions and he's working in this back like the the burgundy drape is drawn there's like dust in the air it's dark and he's frantically cutting out a version of my face out of plywood though and he's putting it out there for the world to see so i've got a mask A foot away from my actual face that when the world comes at me and those bad things that I'm scared of actually come toward me They hit the mask first and they don't hurt and the guy behind the ego is like, oh Thank goodness, but I realized one day in a hotel room in spokane, washington.

[00:58:49] Curt: It was like very specific I was like, oh no That means i'm also not letting the good stuff in and if I want to love I need to be willing to be hurt. [00:59:00] And that was a game changing moment for me where I was able to, you know, slowly but surely over the last, I think five or six years now, release the ego carpenter from doing his work so that I could bear my own face into the storm of the world and know that if I got hurt, I wasn't going to die.

[00:59:19] Curt: If I got hurt, I could navigate it now as a grown man. But also, man, I get to feel love now. I get to really connect with my wife and kids. So that just came to mind. I think that's a cool way to look at it. So, um, anyway, we're a few minutes past the top of the hour. Uh, do you want to close us out with anything?

[00:59:36] Curt: Any final thoughts? Cause this has been, dude, this has been so much more than I've hoped for. So thank you. Um, let me see if there's anything that you want to sort of leave us with.

[00:59:44] Joe: absolutely. Thank you again. It's been amazing to be able to go through this stuff personally as well as with the men and women in our jail. Um, seeing the changes in their lives and seeing them, you know, come to terms with those things that, hey, this isn't, [01:00:00] you know, I'm not just a bad person. I'm not a freak for having this anger.

[01:00:04] Joe: It's, you know, it's expected from what I've been through. I can choose to grow from this. It's no longer I'm a victim because with the victim mentality, it's, again, if I'm a victim, if you're coming at me and you're swinging at me, . Yeah, I'm, I'm fine. If I, I'd, I'd be okay trying to hurt you. I can justify it, but then later on, shoot, I just, I took a swing at Kurt.

[01:00:29] Joe: Why did I do that? Being able to take that, you know what? I'm gonna take responsibility for this. I'm not gonna be a victim. I recognize I've had problems in the past. All right? I can think reasonably now. I can think level, and I don't need to be looking at that from a, I'm always on my back trying to push things away.

[01:00:44] Joe: 1, 1, 1 other thing about about being open to being hurt is it's not attractive. It's not an attractive proposition that, Hey, why don't you let yourself get hurt? You know, why don't you come on, buddy. Let me insult you. Let let you know. No one wants that. But [01:01:00] I think of it as how did you discover what your favorite food is?

[01:01:03] Curt: By eating it?

[01:01:04] Joe: But did you discover it right away?

[01:01:06] Curt: No.

[01:01:06] Joe: You had to try some things you probably didn't like it didn't kill you. Opening ourselves up to people. We're going to find there are some people who have their own defenses up, and you being vulnerable scares them, so they're gonna lash out at you. But I'm just, if you look at it as, I'm just finding things, that, finding whether it's, you know, the people I, I don't want to be around or, you know, opening myself up to those people who are going to be genuine and open with me.

[01:01:35] Joe: It's not death. I'm just trying different foods. I'm just giving things a try. I can't find my favorite food if I don't try new things. So being willing to open that, open that door, and open yourself up to that, to where, yes, there's a chance I can get hurt, but I'm never going to find something deeper, something greater if I keep my arms up this stuff again, [01:02:00] I can't say it enough.

[01:02:01] Joe: Unbelievable. Unbelievable stuff. Unbelievable material. Life-changing for me for so many people. coming in and out of the jail. I know for the therapist that I'm working with, it's been great for him. This stuff is to everyone listening, take the time to digest this stuff. Like Kurt was saying, I've, I mean, I've done that myself where I've bought courses and I have the app on my phone.

[01:02:23] Joe: It's there and I've watched a couple and oh, it was great. But this stuff, it's, it isn't just another, here's some things, here's five little tricks. This stuff has been deep healing where it's actually addressing the need. We're getting the surgery done to fix the actual problems. If the first time going through it, it has to be quick for you. Go through it again. Don't, don't not do it because you don't have time to do everything right this moment, but go through this material, take the time to process it. If you want to have that relationship with your kids that you dream of, it's going to take work. And I don't want you guys, you know, Slaving [01:03:00] away at the wrong thing.

[01:03:01] Joe: I don't want you spending hours upon hours doing the wrong work. For me personally and for, I can say for a fact, several, several people that have been going through it with us, a majority of the people this stuff has been the actual right solution. Kurt's really hit on something with this and I cannot oversaw it enough.

[01:03:19] Joe: It's fantastic material. Kurt, thank you so much for the opportunity to do this stuff.

[01:03:24] Curt: Man. Thank you. I will graciously accept that as uncomfortable as it may be, but man, I really, really appreciate the fact that. You're willing to say that you're willing to do the work that you're willing to bring it to other people and that you're willing to just come on here. My wife had the idea for this podcast.

[01:03:45] Curt: FYI, I was like, I just got an email from a guy and he's like running his inmates through this. And then like, he's sending me testimonials from them. She's like, I'll get them on the podcast. And I was like, Oh, like, well, what would we talk about? She's like, I don't know. It's an interesting story. Duh. And I was like, [01:04:00] Oh, of course.

[01:04:01] Curt: And then, man, yeah, you're just like, I think. What you have done to share with people has forced you into it over and over enough times to really get it. And that's just dropped something in me. It's like, how can I ensure long term commitment to a course with slowness? Almost impossible, but you've inspired me to try.

[01:04:22] Curt: So anyway, Joe Overmoe thank you very much, my friend. And we'll put all the links and anything else mentioned in the show notes at dad. work slash podcast, including a way. To get the course we're talking about. So thank you, brother. I appreciate

[01:04:34] Joe: Thank you.

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