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Today’s guest is Jonathan West.

We go deep talking about:

  • The trap of boyishness in a culture that doesn’t train us in masculinity
  • Performative masculinity versus internalized, purposeful masculinity
  • Insights from my own journey in faith
  • Taking full responsibility for your life
  • Forgiving your father
  • How to actually lead your wife as a strong husband
  • Getting things done, dropping expectations, and serving your family because it’s the RIGHT thing to do
  • How to ask men for true accountability

Johnathan West is a husband, a father, small business owner and the founder of Being Husband Podcast, a podcast dedicated to having conversations that help husbands build households that stand.

Find Johnathan online at:
Podcast: Being Husband Podcast

Resources mentioned:
Being Husband Podcast

Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the Dad Work Podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of Dad.Work. I'm joined today by Jonathan West. In a podcast episode that I'm titling, how to escape performative masculinity and become the husband and father your family needs. We go deep today talking about the trap of boyishness and a culture that doesn't train us in masculinity, performative masculinity versus internalized, purposeful masculinity, insights from my own journey and faith, taking full responsibility for your life, forgiving your father, how to actually lead your wife as a strong husband, getting things done dropping expectations and serving your family because it's the right thing to do, and how to ask men for true accountability. Jonathan west as a husband, a father, small business owner and the founder of being husband podcast, a podcast dedicated to having conversations that help husbands build households that stand you can find Jonathan online on Instagram, being husband pod or his new business suburban farm guy, you can check out his website suburban farm Or you can listen to the being husband podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts. Guys, this was such a good conversation. This was really connective for me. And you'll see at the end, Jonathan asked for accountability. So please follow up with him and make sure he did what he said he's going to do. And guys, if you are not following on Instagram yet, head over to Dad.Work.Curt and if you're not following on Twitter, go to Curt Storring. CURT STORRING That's where a lot of our best stuff is. Anyway, we'll jump in this episode, and I hope you enjoy. Here we go.

Alright, guys, welcome back to another episode of the Dad Work Podcast. I am thrilled to have Jonathan West join me today. And man, we are sort of like in this Venn diagram circles, where I know some people you know, you know, some people I know. And I'm just hearing great things about you. And I'm actually very, I feel privileged to have you on the podcast because the things that you're saying in your podcast and on your Instagram, hit me really hard as a husband specifically, but also as a father and a man. So first of all, man, thank you so much for coming on, and welcome. And I'm excited to get into this man, how you doing today? I'm doing really, really good. And I'm glad to be. I'm glad to be on here, man. Because you, you kind of like I was saying before we came online, you kind of came into the space just just home runs

Jonathan West 2:06

the game on Instagram, so I'm I'm glad to be here, man. Seriously, thank you. It's a privilege. Yeah, thanks, man. I think I can remember what they say was Will it was Ryan it was like, curse. It's not even like homeruns it's like soccer punches or something like that. I was just playing with fire because I was so mad this kind of stuff. The reason I'm doing this in the first place, I don't know how much of my story you know, but like, I was just a terrible dad, like a really, really bad dad bad husband didn't know how to lead was still really wracked with shame and guilt from like, you know, my past. And I just kept doing terrible things. And so as I'm out there, you know, home running or soccer bunch of people, depending how you look at it. It's like, man, if someone had just told me, like seven years ago that I could be in this position. Now, I would have given them anything, I would have paid anything I would have listen to them. So I'm hopeful that my journey and now your journey sharing this with us, will be a hopeful journey for people because I was on the brink of suicide at a point. And that was a dark, dark time. And so if we can share this back and forth that we can share our struggles and our story. I think it's just going to help guys and whether that comes across as challenging for men. And I think that's has to be the case in many ways. So anyway, that's the home run in the in the soccer punching. Yeah, let's put another moment. Man, I wanted to I want to hear about you because I was listening to a bunch of podcasts as listening your podcast with will and the rent of man podcast, Renaissance man podcast, if you don't listen to that, guys, listen to that. But I want to hear about how you sort of shifted into married life into fatherhood. Because I love this story. It's like the origin story, right? Where you were, where you've come from, from and where you're going now gives you a little bit more just an identity for us to listen to. So what was your journey into marriage into fatherhood? Was it something you expected all the time? Were you awesome at it right away? Yeah, tell us was better right away? No,

not still not awesome at it and what it is, man.

So my wife and I have been together since we were in high school.

We, we were 17 when we got together. And we went to college together. And

you know, I've got a lot of love from my wife. Because she's, I mean, I've grown up with the girl, you know what I mean? And so we've been together a total of 13 years, something like that, and married six. And so the long and short of that, is that, you know, was I good at being a husband? No, I was I was very much

boyish in a lot of ways and a lot of things that I took from my dad about being a husband or very surface level, right, my dad and I didn't really talk about the internal struggles that men have right to rise to the occasion. And even to like and this is something that I think my dad and I've talked about quite a bit is that you know, the the boomer generation, in terms of explain

Knee explicating masculinity really didn't do that good of a job. And I don't think it's because they're bad people, I just think that they assumed that the culture would train up men, right would would encourage masculinity and would it would be normal, right, masculinity was a cultural norm for the boomer generation, because they're coming behind a lineage of, you know, the silent generation and the greatest generation. So they're coming behind a really some crazy momentum in terms of strong men. And then you come to the boomers that, you know, were able to access a lot of wealth, etc. And their, their whole mantra was, I want to work hard and make a lot of money so that my kids don't have to work as hard was kind of their mantra. And as a result, you you kind of created, they kind of created a group of young men that weren't used to struggle. And in addition to not being used to struggle, didn't really know what masculinity was all about. Beyond just,

you know, taking the trash out, or things like that. I mean, it's, it's, so that's the, that's the big thing is that, you know, I could say for me, and I've thought about this a lot is

I knew the roles, what was required, to some extent, the roles of husband and father, but you can hide behind roles I've been thinking about that a lot lately is that you, you actually can focus your attention so much on the performance and the acceptance of your wife of your kids, that you you don't have that muscle of masculinity yet. And so everything you do is very performative. It's not really based on something that you've internalized. It's something that you're grabbing at different places, trying to get a good understanding so that

your wife can be proud of you so that your kids can be proud of you, which is not a bad thing. Humans want validation. But if you can't look at yourself in the mirror as a man and respect yourself as a man, everything you're doing is going to come crashing down because you've not built this foundation of okay, what what am I about? What does God asked me to do? What mission has God put me on this planet to do? And then how does that feed into my role as a husband, and as a father?

Man, that was perhaps the most action packed first five minutes of podcasts ever, because I've got like five different notes. And that was just like, super quick intro. So I'm loving this already. Man. I want to dive into some of the things you just said. And I've got ideas to like, get you on other podcasts now guys that I know. So like, let's do this boyish boyishness. Yes, let's go there. Because this is one of the things I've talked about to a lot of guys now. And it's like, you got to drop your childhood fantasies, your childish fantasies. And I've got guys going like, well, I just, it's like, I don't know, if you've seen Napoleon Dynamite. It's like, back in the day, I could throw a pigskin, a quarter mile, it's like coach would have put me in, you know, I would have been a state champ. And it's like, man, you got to drop that stuff. Because the moment that you decided to become a husband, and then a father, your life has changed. This is not your role anymore to do these things, your role becomes much more about sacrifice and service and that kind of thing. So do you want to maybe expand a little bit on the boyish nature of what we face when we're not initiated into manhood, perhaps Perhaps by the culture or our fathers?

Yeah. So the boyish nature is, it's self serving in and of itself.

But, but something that I think

this is the complexity, I think of it because when I look at my son,

he's got a boyish nature about him. But when he sets his mind to do a thing, he's going to accomplish the thing. So it's this boys have this kind of unencumbered masculinity to themselves, like they have a mission. And whether that's to get more food out of you, or something that like that. He's going to he's dogged and determined to accomplish that mission. That I think the challenge comes, when, when when it's, it's just about your, your pleasure, right? I think that's probably the biggest issue when it comes to the selfish fantasies is if if the selfish fantasies don't serve a greater purpose, if they don't serve a greater goal, if there's not a real mission behind it beyond just your own gratification. And so I think, you know, boyish fantasies could be you know, like you said,

if coach would have put me in, I'd have been, I would have been semi pro. It's like, okay, cool. You're not so now what do you do in light of not being semi pro? What has God put you on this earth to do? What are the gifts and talents and skills that he's, he's given you to execute right and to give dominion and that's another big piece of, of a lot of this is this.

This idea in Genesis, they call it the cultural mandate, and the cultural mandate is the part in Genesis where says Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it and

And I'm gonna give you dominion over everything, right. And so there is this concept that man has to conquer, right to multiply, to spread to build, etc. And that's a good thing. The, the challenge is, is that has to come under the subjection of God, fundamentally. And then secondly, under this objection of your family, the the boyishness, would would choose conquest over service. And then, on the other side of the equation, you might have a guy that's uninitiated and doesn't have this Dominion piece, right? And is only in service to everybody's whims, and not to a greater mission. And that's where the rub comes as what I'm finding in my own life. That's where the tension is. The tension is, if you have the conquest without the service, you have a guy that's just going to bulldoze his way over his kids. Bulldozers weigh over his wife, and he's, he might make a lot of money doing it. But he's not going to, he's not going to be a father and a husband to those people. And if you just have a guy that's at service that everybody service, is he really accomplishing the mission that God's asked him to do? Or is he just trying to make everybody happy. And that's a problem. And and those are two ditches, to ditches on either side of the highway, right? And that's the that's so prototypical. If so many men these days, especially, it's either the Alpha red pill, you know, I'm just gonna crush it and rack up wins on things that don't matter. Or I'm a nice guy. And everyone walks all over me, and I don't you know, when my wife says, Where are we going for dinner? I go, Oh, where do you want to go? And I don't know why she looks at me like the way she does, like, I'm a child. But it's weird. But it's funny. Those are exactly that's really well said, man, I appreciate that. Because that's just it puts it so under perspective that you have to be balanced. And I think for me, in masculinity as being like a mature man who's both husband and father now. I'm trying to find what is that balance? And I think it's an all things I mean, you have the balance of for me, I've just come up with this. It's like, I want to be harder to kill, but easier to love. Right? Like, for me, that is all of it. But it's also like the, you know, duality of, you know, grace and wrath, or judgment and mercy or whatever that is, right. Like there is this balance at the beginning, or the middle of it, I should say, where we should be operating from? I think this is just me postulating a little bit. I think that the mature man, the differences, he's got the discernment as to when he uses either extreme. Yeah, I think so. That's what I've been thinking about a lot. It sounds like what you were just saying, you know, you got to stay on that narrow path in the middle rather than either ditch. It's tough to do. It's really so tough because the culture has done a really good job and will not talk about this a lot. They've done a really good job of separating the warriors from the poet's the jocks from the nerds. Right, the the Chad's from the from the

Tyrone's, from the Brandon's. And so there's this camp, this dualistic kind of camp with masculinity where you feel like you have to choose between, you know, being, you know, Andrew Tate, or being you know, Phil Dunphy. And the reality is, is that you really don't I'm not saying you need to merge the two, but you just need to think about what it is what it is that men do, particularly family, man, family, man, don't get let off the hook. Right? You can't father a kid being an Alpha Dog badass, right? And you can and by the way, you can't father a kid being Mr. Nice Guy, either, like your son or your daughter need to see that interplay. And I think you're exactly right. And I would even say, to go along with your point, where you're saying that there's these tension between these these things you mentioned? Was that grace and wrath? Is that what you said, and then thanks. So I've seen wrath. And you've said that but I think another one to add to is working and waiting. Because when it comes to faith, there is a time where God is going to ask you to wait before he acts on your behalf. And then there's also a time where you need to go and put the work in you need to kind of turn up the energy and really show up and produce and perform. And the the challenge is and this is where wisdom comes into play is knowing how to how to move in both exactly what you said when to turn on which lever and that only comes by wisdom and it's funny because proverbs actually.

Proverbs is really great at this because Proverbs, all of the wisdom books in the Bible, so the wisdom books are a Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, job, and Psalms to a lesser degree, but they answer really fundamental questions about reality. But the point I'm trying to make in those books, particularly Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, is they have so many verses that seem to contradict like for example, in Proverbs, it says, Answer a fool according to his folly. Basically

In a humble him, but then it says Don't Answer a fool. according to his folly, less less, you know less you get caught up in the mire, right? You get caught up in wasting your time and casting your pearls before swans, that kind of thing. And people ask the question, why is that together like that, it seems like it should be one or the other. The point that Solomon is trying to make with that is that wisdom has to be executed, sometimes you need to put a guy in his place. Alright, let him know that you're a moron. You're not thinking appropriately. Sometimes you need to just refrain from saying anything, say, sounds good. Let me know how that works out for you. And leave it at that. Because you don't have time you got other things that you need to be doing. And,

man, if I could figure out that wisdom thing, brother.

I think I'd be all right. But but because I'm where I'm at, I think that that's, that's where you that's where we're at as men in maturity is that God is consistently testing us to have us grow in wisdom, like that's the reality is that, you know, you jump in headfirst to marriage, and you realize, oh, wow, it's not going to always be great, you have to actually invest in the relationship or you jump into father and oh, wow, this was really cool when he was like, you know, cute and giving me a hug. And now he just pooped, right? And yelling, and wife threw up. And and I got a call in like, five minutes. But I gotta deal with this, because wife can't do anything about right. So it's

all of it is a test to see what you're made of. And you recognize you don't have enough of what you need, you don't have enough of that with you don't have enough of that grace, you don't have enough put through that grit, you don't have enough grace or grit. And so you got to go to the Father to get some more of both to then take on the next day.

It's like the refiners fire, right? It's just being refined by the heat by the flames. And there's no way out. And this is something that, like, so many guys want to do want to be the guy that we're talking about, they want to be wise, they want to be a good leader, but they're not willing to do the work. And I know that trope has been overplayed, potentially with, you know, guys, like, I don't know, the David Goggins type, right, like, just show up and crushing everything. And that's cool that it has inspired me, like, Dude, I went from run a 5k per running session to running a half marathon in three weeks, because of just the mindset that he got me into. But, you know, like, you've got to actually go and do the thing, or maybe I should say, and you've got to go do the thing rather than just, you know, hoping. And so all the stuff we're talking about, you have to actually be in. And I'm going to use this cliche, again, in the arena. I just talked to Jim Ramos who is on the podcast, which launched today when we're recording, and he has the men in the arena, ministry. But because you've got to be in it, you've got to be doing it. And like you said, You've got to be like, Man, I don't have enough, I can't do this. Because what you just explained, I can see and I can feel the frustration of being in that position. Someone's pooping, why sick, I got a call in five minutes. Everything's on fire. I can't do it alone. And yet that prepared me for all the future times, I gotta keep reminding myself that oh, yeah, this will be good for the future. And that's something that maybe that's part of wisdom, I've been a little bit better at recently going, what is this preparing me for, like, let that just be the strengthening. It's like doing a rep at the gym, right? Every time you break that muscle fiber, but it goes come Grom comes back stronger, if you're feeding with the protein and stuff like that. So that's what I'm trying to get my head around. Because just do hard things just too hard to just do hard things, I will then be ready for the future, whatever that is. So that's how I've been looking at it. It's funny, because I think that that's accurate, because when you think about like a like, so I live in a small town right outside of Nashville, Tennessee, here and here in the US. And

this small town was not the complaint is that we don't have wide enough roads, we don't have the infrastructure for the amount of people that live here. And what that communicates is that the city planners didn't anticipate for the growth that would happen. So they didn't lay the infrastructure down the framework down. What's happening with with men, when the when when the diaper is full, when Mom is throwing up and crying when the phone calls going off the hook when you lose the client, right? When the client says yes, but then really, it didn't work out or whatever the case is.

In those moments, the infrastructure is being built, and it hurts. It's so painful. It's so slow. It's not happening fast enough, right? And not enough. Not enough. Was that a not enough month at the end of your money?

Exactly. All of that's going on at the same time. For the particular reason to get you to bend the knee. You have to bend the knee because you're not and I'm gonna tell you and I'm gonna say this some of you guys may not be Christian that's that's okay.

Love you anybody that's not I just I'm just going to tell you that.

There will you You are awesome. Probably everybody that

This is probably crushing in business, everything's going good, you have these fires, and you just kind of muster up enough strength and you figure it out love that about you keep that same energy. Understand that there will come a time in your life where the suffering is too great for you to bear on your own.

And in that time, you're going to be faced with a choice, you're going to either and this is the reality of men, you're either going to look and say to your life, it's not worth it for me to go on. Or you're going to find

the humility to bend the knee. I'm just going to tell you, that's how it goes. And I'm telling you, because I've met a lot of men, I've been doing the podcast for a little bit of time. I've met a lot of men. And I'm just saying that there comes a season. And so hang in there.

And when that season comes, give me a call.

That's good. Yeah, that's one of the things that I've heard recently is, I think I can remember I shared this I can remember I heard it, I'll try and think of the source because everyone, everyone's looking for the source these days, your fundamental reality source. Anyway, I'm not I'm not going to do that. But I was basically like, anything that you place in, in the place of worship, that isn't designed to be worshipped will crumble, and that goes with the self, it goes with your business. And, like those things, will not hold up to the stressors. And I've seen that in my life, particularly with the self like that was really big for me, I was very much into self worship, I thought I was the best, like the end all be all. And then it was like, Wait a second, if I put that to its logical, extreme. I not all of that. I'm not the Alpha Omega. I don't I can't do some things in that humility was part of like this journey for me going like, oh, yeah, maybe I should, you know, maybe there's more here. And that was actually part of my journey, which again, maybe we'll share on your podcast, because guys have been listening to podcasts the last probably five, six weeks now, they probably noticed a little bit of shifted content more in the faith side in the Christian side. And guys, if you're not Christian, that's okay. I wasn't I thought it was stupid. I honestly, I thought it was so stupid. And look, we're getting off track for what I want to talk about. But hey, the spirit's working right. And, and so, yeah, man, I just want to say like all of this stuff, you might be checking out, you might be wanting to hit that skip button. But it all comes back to making you a better man, husband and father, which is what this is about it. I didn't realize, until I became a Christian the last few months. It's like, oh, there's a template out there. God the Father, if I just like try to emulate some of the things he is as Father, if I just look through the bible with all the wisdom, there's so much in there, and it all works. And that's the thing that drove me crazy. I went into it looking to disprove it. And I was like, oh, yeah, but guarantee there's a lot of stuff in here. That's stupid. And yet, every time I tried it, and I would try to make it like wrong, I would come away going like, oh, no, it's more real. And I hated that. Because it was not what I wanted to find. I thought there was so much judgment against it. And I guess what I'm trying to say is like, yeah, it's real. And yeah, bend the knee. And like, man, at least think my first question was, why is there something not nothing? And then if there's something, what is that thing? And so even that, even just getting curious about that, for me was a big deal. And that humility has helped me as a father so much, because now I'm not going into every single situation going like, I know exactly what's going on here. I'm gonna yell at my kids, I'm gonna yell at my wife, we're going to do this. Because I'm going like, Man, I gotta check myself. I gotta make sure that I'm following who I need to follow rather than just putting it all on me and going, wherever my whims are, right. Whatever I feel right now is right. And that's not true. So anyway, this is a bit of a tangent now, but glad we went there. No, this was good. No, and we will definitely get into it on on our podcast, man, I, I the the basic point that I was just trying to bring up is there's, there's so much stress for men, like, there's a lot that we especially if you're going to be a family man, man, like the you know, not only are you required to perform, right as a husband and as a father, but then you have to perform as a provider in that role. Right. So within the role of husband is was the three P's right, protect, provide preside as Ryan McClure saying,

all of that requires a unique skill set, right, just for the end, by the way, the Protect, provide preside. That's like prerequisite, that's not even going above cost of entry. That's cost of entry. And there's guys that aren't even at the cost of entry that are married and they're realizing that as they go down the road,

you know that maybe their fathers didn't give them everything that they needed, or whatever the case is. And

that's also a unique challenge because you have to then reconcile, okay, well, my dad didn't give me everything I needed. So then the first phase of that is I'm angry at my dad now. And then you recognize you don't have everything you need to give to your son and you're like, oh, wait a second.

It my dad, just like he did the best he could with what he had, like, so let me forgive him. Let me love him. Let me see him as a brother now in this, this this mire that we call masculinity in a modern world, right? And like, Let me hug this man because like, Damn, what a struggle my man like you, you know what I'm saying the fact the fact that I'm the the fact that you're the guy you are that I'm the guy I am again, fathers, we're not perfect by any means. But the fact that we're here having this conversation is a testament in some sense to what they did.

In some sense, right. And that may be you know, could be the case that your dad wasn't there for you. And so you went on a mission to figure out how to become even that you gotta get it. I'm not saying you give your dad necessarily like a kudos for. But I am saying that your dad shaped you. And and, and he was shaped by things outside of his control as well. And so the grace that I have for my father, the grace that I have for all men now, in the midst of this, it's like, man, it's not easy, bro. And so I, when you hear me say bend the knee. That's an extension of grace brother, as no judgment on my and I'm saying that there's a there's a guy and I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but there's a guy in heaven that says that his yoke is easy, and His burden is light. Okay, you have the opportunity to receive that is all that I'm saying? Oh, all I'm trying to do is take a little bit of load off rather, I'm just trying to, you know what I mean? So but by all means, if you want to carry the weight of reality, and being all on your shoulders, by all means, brother, go ahead.

I don't walk with problems

down that road. And so I'm sharing the low with somebody. And so that's all I want to do, which is all for that. And, you know, that's all I had to say on that man. So yeah, that's really good, man. I appreciate that and appreciate what I brought up. And it's funny that you mentioned the thing about the dad, because that was your dad, that was going to be the next thing. That was the second point of like the five I wrote down from the original exposition.

And so I think that's so important. And honestly, with all the guys I work with, in my groups, and my coaching, it's always, almost always coming back to Have you forgiven your father yet. And that goes into the childishness and the boyishness that I see. Because just for me, and some of the guys that I work with, it's like until I acknowledged, and then grieved, and then let go of what I wanted to happen when I was a child. And could see my father is even a little bit innocent. I was looking, we talked about this couple weeks ago, and in our group, I was looking for an apology. Yeah, like I wanted an apology from my dad, because oh, man, you did this and you messed up and I didn't feel loved. And at the end of the day, now I'm like, Man, I owe you an IOU. The apology, in a sense, and I forgive anything you might have done, because you were the way that you were because your father was the way he was. And on and on and on, we have to remember, like you said, extending the grace to our own fathers, and then being able to grieve that childish loss that I experienced going, I wish that my dad was different. Well guess what? He's not. And it's not your fault that he's not, but it's now your responsibility to move on. And that looks like for me, it was accepting it was grieving and then going, Okay, well, if I'm not this three year old, in my case, who am I today is a man. And that has been the most transformative thing but required forgiveness, correct? Man, that was hard. Correct?

Because you, you've got this godlike image of your Dad, you're supposed to be that right guy? You're supposed to do everything. Right. Right. So so the fact that I'm the way that I am and I'm doing the things that I'm doing, like it's your fault, and it's like, No, bro, like, You're a grown ass man now. Right? Like you. And this will actually said this to me well from random men who were talking. And he said, he said his his, I think his his granddad or his uncle said that, when a man turns 30, he gets the pink slip to his life. And I love that picture. Because there is this, I don't know what it is about 30 I'm coming up on 30 I'll be 30 this year, as a matter of fact, and it feels like it with everything I've been through this particular year. I'm definitely getting the pink slip of my life.

And, and, and I feel that viscerally. And what he was saying is, when you get the pink slip to your love to your life, you have a choice, you can either hold on to it, and you know, take it and you know push it in the direction that you you see that it needs to go or you can hand it to somebody. There are a lot of men that had their pink slip to their wife. There are a lot of men that had their pink slip to their work, whatever. But as a man, you need to be in control of what it is that you're trying to do what it is that you've been commissioned to do. And that's a it's a

It's exciting initially, but when you recognize the weight of responsibility of that, that, that you how you manage your payslip, right how you manage the direction of your life will have an effect on your son, you're probably going to do what your dad did or some iteration of that thing to your son. I think John L just calls it the father. It's, it's a it's it's a thing, because it's the thing, right? It's, it's a written about thing, because it's very common to everybody. Very common, every young man. And until you can, like you said, until you can forgive your Dad, you're you're always going to be stuck in that boyish state of like, you never, you never took me to the movies, or you never hugged me or whatever. It's like, dude, man, like,

ask what you know what's interesting. Ask your dad. Ask your dad, what his dad was like, that's a good exercise, ask you that what that was like, and ask him what he thinks he didn't get from his dad.

And that probably will give you some humanizing effect on who your dad was, who your dad is. And that's me and my dad. It's funny man, we have been this season. Like I said, this 30 year season like me coming up on 30, we have gotten so tight. And we've just shared our burdens with each other. And it's almost it's interesting, man. It's almost like

because I'm, I feel like I'm going through an initiation process. I've just started a business. This is my first year full year of being a father, my son just turned turn one. Marriage is completely different when you have kids, as you know. And the interesting part about my initiation process is when I'm calling this season, is that I actually went from being just a son of my father to being like a brother. He's my brother now, like, I see him as a man, again, caught up in this, this kind of mire, like, I just, I have so much compassion for him.

And I, I think that as you go through your own, as any man goes through his own initiation process, I think that you'll begin to, you'll begin to humanize your dad again and not make him a god. Because he can't take that way. It's like you shouldn't man, it's anything that you wish to you, eventually you'll find out it can't take the weight if it's if it's not meant to carry that way. So, man, I'm super curious on how you started that process with your dad.

Because I've got Yeah, a lot of the guys that work with a lot of guys have talked or they're like, I would love to do this. I would love to hear about him. I'm opening up now to the idea of forgiving him. But either he's just shutting me down. And he's stuck in his ways, in which case for a lot of guys, that has to be okay, guys don't want to hear that. But you've got the opposite story. Your dad is now communicating with you in a way that feels great by the sounds of it. How did you approach that? Did you were you the one who started that? Yeah, we so me and my dad have always had, I want to be clear, me and my dad have always had a good relationship. I've had a great relationship with my father. I think the there there's obviously things that my dad didn't give me, because he didn't have it to give. And we've talked about that quite a bit. My dad and I.

And we've had our share of tension or tension actually came.

Artists actually came during COVID, surprisingly enough, how things shook out, I was very much not very convinced I was not going to get the vaccine, and I still have not getting a vaccine and anybody that's got it. I mean, hey, do you right? But I made a determination that I was not going to get that. And my dad didn't like that too much.

And so we had our point of contention with that, because and I think what it was fundamentally is that

maybe behavior was a reflection on him, he felt.

And that rubbed him the wrong way. Because he's like, wait a minute, like, I raised you as a man, like, What do you mean, you're not going to do the thing that I'm doing?

And that was the point I think at which I established my independence, right? Like, this is what I'm doing. I'm not doing it. And we had I mean, when I tell you, Curt, we had a, a probably three hour conversation debate. I mean, just like we were in it, I mean, back and forth. There wasn't a lot. There was no disrespect. But it was like, you know, he was coming at it from a theological standpoint. I was coming at it from a theological standpoint, like, we were sparring. I sparred with my father. So what's interesting as I'm talking about, I almost think that that's a requirement like if you in order to reconcile you might end up having to spar with your dad, you might end up having to stake a flag somewhere in your life, and saying

Uh, this is who I am. And this is what I'm about.

And be okay with him not being okay with.

And that's, that might be the way to it at least it was for me like, that situation initiated everything that's going on since it like that was 2020 2021. Everything leading up to today, I mean, to the point where my dad told me he's like, look, I don't like that you didn't do it. But I respect you for that. And that has led to a brotherhood between us where we can talk, man, the man.

So it might that might be the case, man, I think that might be initiation of reconciling that relationship and might take you taking a firm stand on something, it might take you being willing, if even if you don't take a firm stance on vaccines, or whatever, it might be you taking a firm stand and saying, Look, this is, this is how I see my life, this is how I see that you've impacted it. And I want to let you know that I forgive you for that. I want to let you know that this is what happened as a result, and you might just need to be okay with going toe to toe with your dad.

That might just be what it is. And for me that's, that has led to the initiation process man has been willing to spar with it's amazing. That's good. That's so good. And that some so many guys hide. I think there's this book by Jason Gattis. He talks about like external conflict trading for internal conflict. So most guys, most people don't want to have external conflict, especially these days. And so they internalize it. And I think that there's so much good that comes from actually externalizing some of this, because it might be messy, and you might end up sparring, and you might end up getting, you know, popped in the nose or something like that. But there's no more internal conflict. And there's a resolution that is almost always worth removing the internal conflict. And it's like, yeah, I can remember who said this again, man, I am so bad at this, as I'm saying this, like for the eighth time, it's like, I'm taking all these things that I've heard over the the you know, the last few years. And it's like, it's also good. So anyway, if this is yours, please take it. But you got to be able to rock the boat, while still knowing how to swim. So that you want to have these conflicts, and you want to have the skills to navigate them. And I think that's what it comes back to is like you want to be consistently growing, and then moving towards where you can externalize the conflict internally, not in a way that's hurtful, but in a way that's resolving the issue. And it sounds like that's what you did here. I've got something similar happened with my mother, not my father, my dad passed away, I think eight years ago, like in four days, actually, that's coming up. But with my mother, I had a similar conversation, which was, I was at the point where I was like, I'm just gonna say it. And I don't care how it goes. And so I brought this to her in a way that I think was as respectful as I could be. But I shared like, some of these things hurt. And they don't feel very good. But I wasn't yet at the place of forgiveness. And that's, I think, where I went wrong. And so that was a rocky period for a while after I had shared my feelings. And I probably put them on her in a way that was unfair. But over the course of that we were both able to grow together and almost start from scratch, in a sense, where we both went, how do you want me to show up? How do you want to show up? Here's how I want to show up. Okay, well, here's how it all works together. And now man, I'm feeling so blessed that she's showing up wonderfully. And I just love having her around. So these things can be done, no matter what season of life you're in, just because you're you know, parents or, you know, 60 7080, or whatever they are, there's still an opportunity here because, like you said before, we aren't doing the same things to our kids. And when you sit in that spirit of balance from earlier in the conversation, and when you're realizing what your parents, quote unquote, did to you, and you're seeing yourself, play it out in your kids, how are you going to stand there do nothing, you know, like, you know how that feels not to have that relationship with your parents or whatever needing to free wanting their forgiveness or whatever the case may be. Try to do a little bit better for your kids. So there's less of a burden to forgive on your end. And that's how I've been thinking about at least Yeah, no, that's a great way to put it for man. I don't have anything else to say other than a man. Okay. Excellent. Well, you know what I was assuming we're gonna talk a lot about marriage, and we just got like, deep into masculinity. And I'm pumped about that, man. I'm actually really grateful for all the wisdom, but let's get to marriage. Because this is this is what I found you on Instagram first.

That's my bread and butter. And that's right. Yeah. That's how I came across you on Instagram the first time that being husband pod, I think is your page and obviously the podcast. But some of the stuff you've been saying, man, it's just like, Oh, it's so convicting. I was listening to one of your episodes this morning at the gym, and you're talking about what we owe our wives our best. But that a happy wife is not a happy life. And there's like, again, it's this balance. It's this maturity. It's the nuance, it's the discernment, but what does our role as husband look like in a way that we're

We're leading while being sensitive to being the lover of our wife. Because again, guys go one way or the other, how do you do both and stay in integrity when she might not like it? So let's that's a million directions. You pick where you want to go? Well, with most always most men. So

what I think how you one of your questions, one of your questions was how do you how do you lead, while also being sensitive to your wife's needs?

I think you have to understand

that the that three Ps we were talking about before the Protect provider preside. Cost of injury, gotta Doom doesn't matter how you feel about, it doesn't really matter how she feels about it, like we have to iron that out, right, got to get the money together, I got to make sure that you're safe. And I got to make sure that I'm leading the family.

Beyond that, like so. And I'll give you just kind of a more practical example. When I was approaching my wife about leaving my job at a university, I used to work at a university

when I was approaching her about leaving the job.

I didn't ask permission, but I asked what she thought. And so I said, Hey, here's an I came up with a plan. That's another thing, I had a plan. And I asked her what she thought about the plan. Now, I'm obviously going to do the plan, because I've set up a lot of work to get it done. I know the long term goal. And I know what's in the best interests of both myself and the family. And what was in the best interest interest of all of us was for me to not have a 45 two hour commute, going to university and coming back home. It's just not a sustainable way to be a family man. Like I was picking up my son late like it was just it was a mess. It was an absolute mess. I wasn't spending enough time with her was tired, like it was just not a good fit, didn't enjoy the work, which that you know, that trickles down to how you show up as well. So when I came to her, I said, Hey, here's the plan, I've got an investment for this amount of money. I'm going to leave my job on this date. And I'm going to pursue this particular business that you know, that I'm good at. And what do you think about that? And praise God that I have a wife that, that trust me,

I would say that it's all good fruit and based on my merit, but it's not all based on my bed. I've I've done some things, right. I've done some things wrong. But I have a wife that that respects me. And that's you do earn that I don't want to make it sound like you don't earn that. But there is a particular kind of woman that that no matter what you do, that it may not come to that. So I was I'm thankful that I have a woman that will. And so

the balance, I think comes with having a genuine plan and the direction on which even when it comes down to eating, it's like, hey, for example, we got our anniversary coming up this weekend. So I said, you know, I said hey, what are you thinking about food wise, I'm really feeling seafood. What do you want to do? It's like, I like seafood. I like stable, blah, blah, whatever. And so, pick the place made the reservation, I said, Hey, here's what I think is going to be good options for you from an inner perspective. And here's it here's a drink option for you. What do you think about this? And she was like, This is great. This sounds delicious. Love it. And it was as simple as that. And what I think that did was it took the pressure off her a lot. And that's how you show a woman love is you you take the pressure off at every turn right? If that means changing the dirty diaper cuz she just threw up in her mouth because the dirty diaper didn't like go change the dirty diaper. Do you know if that means

you know cooking a meal, cook a meal, right? It's not going to cost you anything to cook a meal. And I think a lot of guys because they they read too much red pill content, frankly, not all and again, I'm bagging on Red Pill stuff Red Pill stuff has its place because men we were talking about this on his podcast. It has its place because it meets guys where they are some guys don't know the basics of masculinity, right? The ABC the 123 This is how women interact with men. This is what women respect about men. This is what men respect about men, et cetera. So like they need that.

When you come in a husband and a father, there's a there's a nuance to it, as we just talked about, you kind of have to balance both, you know the dominant traits and the not so dominant traits you have to do both. And so

one of the big things that I do is like if there's a situation that's causing her a lot of anxiety and genuine anxiety, not just like I don't feel like it, but like genuinely like you cannot do it. You're throwing up because there's a poopy diaper. I'm just gonna take the ill

Come and go handle the poopy diaper. It's not that big of a deal, right? And I'm just going to handle it. And I think that the best way that you can show up as a husband is just handle stuff. Just get it done. Whatever the thing is, just get it done. And if she's unable to get it done, get it done. Like it's not that critical that you stay in your nice little neat, man buck. Oh, I'm not taking I'm not changing poopy diapers. I'm out here cutting wood. It's like,

okay, like she still throwing up. And he's still got a poopy diaper, right? So, you know, the box, the macho box thing, right? It's like, it's, it's, I understand it, I do I genuinely do. Because it because it's coming. Let me say this, guys that operate like that are dealing with severe insecurity. I recognize that, right. And so you might have to go through the reps of saying no to things so that you get your mind focused on

masculinity, the ABCs there might be a season for that.

I would recommend not having that season be in your marriage.

If you can't avoid it, if you can avoid it, because marriage in and of itself is a women require comfort. Like that's, that's, uh, you know, if she's, they always say the, they always say that the guys that do the kind of jerk a whole thing are guys that girls like today when they're young, right? But if you're a married guy, okay? You're not that guy. Okay, you're the guy that's going to help her grow her family, you're the guy that's gonna protect the kids, you're the guy that's gonna serve her, okay? So understand who you are the guy that used to and the role that you signed up for, and doesn't make you like, just because you're a guy, that's a family, man, it doesn't mean that you're less than, you know, the guy that she might have made it when she was younger. What it means is that you're you have a different worldview, you have a different frame of the world. And you have a different mission, I would say. And so just in, we can go into that, because there's a lot of nuance with that. But the bottom line is, go through that initial phase of like understanding the ABCs. If you're not married yet, try to go ahead and get that done beforehand. If you can't, if you're already in the thick of it, and yeah, ever judged. You gotta calibrate I can't it, it's gonna be a wisdom call. I can't even really tell you ABC 123, how to do it. Show up and lead, get the things done that need getting done and let the chips fall where they may. Yeah, man, that was excellent, excellent answer. I know, I shot you like 80 questions I just started. So thank you for reeling that all in. But I have noticed that the more I do, the better things are. And I think I am starting to realize that part of my unique burden in my role as a man or sorry, as a husband and a father is that I am the one who can do more. And my wife, man, she's like 16 weeks pregnant again. And you never know she was pregnant. Thanks, ma'am. Because she just does so much. Like absolute blessing does so much the family and I just based on who I am as men, I can show up to take off some burden. And so I've started to say to myself, like my ethos as a husband and a father has become joyfully and gratefully carry more of a burden. What can I do to take off burden from my wife and my kids knowing that I will slowly give some of that burden back to my children. When and you know, when and where they can start taking up the role of my wife. What can I do in service in sacrifice, even? How can I sacrificially serve her in a way that is in integrity, which is to say it's the right thing to do? It's not that she's going to be happy about it. It's that she's, whether she sees it or not, I know it's the right thing to do. And so when you're saying go to change the poopy diaper like, bro, do that 100 times a day, go wash the dishes. I've not washed the dishes more than the last couple of months, because it's like, I've just stopped saying, I'll do it later. If I see it, it's done. And I think the more that you do that, even though you get that in your head to start with, like, oh, man, it's gonna be so much work. Yes, it is. And you're the only one who can do it. And when you see the glory, I think in that role, man, it's easier to pick up and do the work. Knowing that every single time you're doing that work, you're fulfilling your purpose or your mission in a large sense, dude, it's hard not to do the work that says what are you doing? This is key. This is so key.

And it's key because I was I was asking a buddy of mine the other day. I said, dude, isn't it crazy that it takes a guy and I think I made a post about this, that it takes in order to get a guy to take care of things. He has to have some prospect of sex. That's a shame.

And you should just want to take care of your space, because that's your space. But because we we've kind of created this situation where, oh, that's a man cave. So that's my area. It's like no, man, your house is your whole castle. Bingo, it, it'll look good. That's on to you, brother. And I'm not saying that you got to do everything, but I'm saying, you either delegate graciously, or get the thing done. That's your home man. And it's like, man, like, you should just want your space clean prospect of sex, you know, or not, you should just want your space to be neat. You should just want good food. It gets. It's crazy. And I think, again, man, like I think I understand where guys are coming from to say, that's not my role, particularly if you're like, kind of in a traditional setup in terms of marriage. And I would say that we lean that way. But my wife's a nurse, right? So there's, there hasn't been that. And by the way, we didn't come from that world, either of parents, like our parents were not traditional in any sense. So a lot of this idea of, you know, husband takes on these responsibilities wife takes on these responsibilities actually quite new to us. And so we're learning as we go. And, but I think in the interim, as you're learning as you go, stuff still got to get done, Brother, it's still got to get done. And so while you're sorting a lot of that stuff out, just just do it, just get it done. Yeah.

That's so good. I love the dropping expectations for sec specifically, and I think dropping expectations for all things. One of the, one of the guys that I've been talking to recently, Kyle from superhuman fathers, he says, we do the most, and we need the least. And I love that ran because like you can take on more. And you do it because it's the right thing, not because like you just said you're hoping to get something out of it's like, Oh, if I'm a good boy, she'll reward me, I'll get my little Scooby snacks. It's like, bro, is that what you've reduced your life to? Like, that's so sad. And that it could be so great. It could be so connecting, it could be such, like just a life enriching thing. And I'm talking about both service and the sexual part of things now. And like you said, it's your responsibility. If it's in your home, the way your family shows up, the way your house is run, everything is your responsibility as the man of the house, I don't care if you don't like it. It's just the way way it is, man. And if you don't like it, then do something about it. Because action is the antidote to being average and to apathy, in my opinion. So man, this is, this is like the basics, right? Like, why is this so hard, though? Is it just that we've grown up in this feminization of all culture? And that people think that we're supposed to be like, equal in what we do rather than in our worth? Like, what's, where do we go wrong here? Well, it's, it's so so feminism, or feminized culture is a fruit of our sin nature. And so I have to talk about this, because origins are important to understand, and and whether or not you believe in God, or you've accepted Christ, you have to understand that the origin story of Adam and Eve explains a lot. It explains a lot, if you don't read that and see yourself in it, you're not even close enough. Because what you have in that story is you have a man that was given responsibility, to protect his household to not to not do a thing, and to communicate that with his wife and to make sure that she doesn't do that thing. Because Because in that story, God doesn't tell Eve anything. God tells Adam, right, which, you know, the subtext there is that Adam was responsible, more so than evil is responsible. And so in that story, what you have is Eve going and doing the thing that God said don't do bringing it to Adam leading Adam, right? To not do what he was, knows that he's not supposed to do, but he does it anyway. Maybe because, you know, he hopes he can get some later on at night. That's an that's an inference. But could be, but the but but the bottom line is that he is led by his wife, as opposed to him leading his wife and his household.

And then when God checks him on, and it asks him, what does he do? He blame shifts, he says, it's her. It's he blames two people, he blames his wife, and God at the same time, right? And if you don't read that, and see yourself in that story, as a man today,

you're not reading close enough. Every one of us do that. And my wife would just do more if she would have more sex with me than this. And if God has given me somebody that maybe I need to get a divorce and get me something better. Listen, here's the reality you get in another relationship with your passive attitude, you will have the same wife in six months. Facts. Same one, same one, because you're still the same guy. The common denominator in the example is you it is it's us. And so feminine femme.

And as culture aside, that's in us to be passive because of the sin, right? And it's in women to be controlling, and micromanaging and all that. And so there's this. There's this interplay that happens in marriage that just is common to everybody. And until you can step outside of that as a man and take on more, right action, right? Is the antidote to what what action is the antidote to what? Average average love that that's good, that's good. Oh.

If you take the if you if you take that approach,

you're going to have a better marriage is going to happen. It's just It can't not happen. Like you're relieving the responsibility of leadership, and taking it upon yourself like it can't not happen. And you do that consistently. Now, the feminized culture component is something to think about, but I just, I almost think that gets too much blame, to be honest with you, because feminism is not the reason that your passive husband, feminism is not the reason that your wife is controlling a micromanager and she's controlling and micromanaging, because you would rather watch TV after a long day at work, then have a conversation about the next steps that need to happen with the raising of the kids, or the or where the money needs to be sitting so that it grows in perpetuity, right, you would rather cut on a Netflix show than talk about generational wealth and wisdom. Right for your kids. You would you would rather go play golf.

Right then to have an open and honest conversation about your wife's sexual fantasies, because they might scare you.

Man, okay. All the guys are convicts now. Are gonna me, don't talk to me like that.

Listen, I'm talking to myself, bro. Listen, when I tell you, I'm gonna tell your story will be super transparent. There was a conversation I need to have with my wife right now. Because my business is very seasonal. There's a conversation I need to have with my wife right now about what we're going to do in the winter. Because I can't work in the winter. So how is income going to come in? And I have been avoiding it. I've been avoiding it. And I'm gonna tell you why I've been avoiding it. I've been avoiding it. Because

I have some latent fear that when I show up and say, Hey,

here's my idea. It may or may not work. I'm scared that she'll reject that.

That's where the fear comes passivity. It's not on her. Right? It's not on her. It's on me. Because whether she rejects it or not, I have to take the first step and initiate the conversation. Hey, we're not going to have checks in the business coming in during this time. What are we going to do? Here's what I think we should do. And I actually think this is a plausible plan, and I already have things in place to get them done. What do you think about that?

But I've been scared to have that conversation. So I've got buddies in my corner saying, Hey, man, when are you gonna do it? When are you gonna do it? When are you gonna do it? And I'm like, bro, like, I'm gonna do it. But I've missed work and all the excuses, right? And it's like, bro,

if you're too busy, to have an open and honest conversation with your wife, you're too damn busy.

You're too damn busy. Because if you started this family, business family business so that you could include her in these conversations, and now you're not including her because the business is just it's really busy right now. I can't really. It's crap. It's bullcrap. So I have to have that conversation. I'm gonna actually have you hold me to it. Like, I need, like, I have a week to have this conversation. So if by next was a Tuesday, it's Wednesday over there and Tuesday, excuse if by Tuesday, I have not had the conversation. You I want you to call me out and say, Hey, man, love you. But like, You're being a wimp. Go do it.

Man. Here's how is. If you don't do it by Tuesday, I will put this out with a terrible introduction. And I'll just slag you the whole time. You do not want to listen to this guy. He's not No, I'm just kidding. I will hold you accountable man. I appreciate that. And you know what? This is good. General, masculine relationship brotherhood, asking to be held to account by someone that you know can do it if you've got brothers in your corner, man, and they're taking you to task and holding you accountable on Hey, dudes Tuesday. How'd that conversation go? You're like,

Ah, dude, they're not gonna let you off easy because like you said, they love you and they want the best for you and you're not doing the best for you because of that passive nature. Or you're going to go do I have this conversation? Now? I know my buddies are gonna harass me for this. Okay, I'm just gonna do it. And you do it which is good. If you don't have this in your life, guys, you have to figure this out. Go deeper with your existing friends. Get a coach

Get a mentor, join a men's group, join a brotherhood, join a mastermind join something where you can get this masculine accountability. Because man, you can get on fire. It supercharges things and holds you to account if you can't trust yourself to stay in integrity. And for most of us, myself included, if I were to be isolated, I would let things slide. Yeah, man. Why would I do that? Because it's hard. It hurts. Like you're saying it sucks. You don't want to do it? No. But if you're putting yourself out there and saying, This is who I am, you have to be able to respect yourself. At the end of the day, when you look in the mirror. This is who I am. This is what I said, I want to do if you can't do that, you know, your conscience will tell you that wasn't good. And I'm not going to do that again. So you'll change if you listen to that. But dude, I love that man. I'll check in I don't know if I don't know if you want me to hold you account. But I'll check in for sure. When I say I'm dead serious. Like I want you to DM me on my instagram. So everybody that's listening right now. Everybody listen, everybody. I'm gonna challenge everybody, everybody that's listening to this podcast, because it'll drop next week. Yeah, flood my DMs and asked me if I did it, do it. Do it. And I'm putting that on myself. Because I don't know how many you got 50,000 That's a lot of people, right? So blood, my deals, because I need to have the conversation. And I'm gonna tell you why I'm doing that. I'm doing that. Because my marriage is worth it. To do that. I owe it to my wife to lead in this way. I owe it to her to do this. And so yeah, I'm every one of y'all is listening, flooded my DMs and asked me did you do the thing? And I am confident that I'll be able to say yes, I pray that that I don't write a check that my book can't cash. But I'm like

I said it's out there now. Don't ask for accountability, and massive accountability. All right, man. That's amazing. Well, I, I know we're a little bit over time now. And I would go for hours and hours. Because it's been amazing. Like, this has been such a blessing for me, because a lot of this in terms of just the framing is both new. But also for the things that are just like being in the moment being the dad being the husband, it's like, so inspiring, man, it's so encouraging to have this kind of talk, and just shoot it back and forth and be like, Man, where are we showing up? Where aren't we? So I appreciate this very much. Where can guys find you? Now? Tell us your business as well. So we can go and you know, hopefully frequently there must be some listeners around you. And yeah, just drop some links and stuff like that, which we'll put in Dad.Work/Podcast. But let us know where you can find you now. Absolutely. Yeah. So on Instagram, when I talk about my husband ramblings, it's at being husband pod on Instagram, podcast where everywhere you can get podcast I haven't released in a long time because I jumped headfirst into the business. But God has been convicted me on this because these conversations are too important to not do. And so you will hear more podcasts and you'll hear one from Curt my man here in a little bit. But we'll be we'll be back. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna ask you to hold me accountable when we come back. But I gotta come. I have to, I have to. And so we'll be back on anywhere that you can get podcast, my business page is the suburban farm. It's at Suburban farm guy on Instagram. And we'll we're not as active on that either, because I just been busy doing the work. But again, look forward to seeing more on both ends of the spectrum because I just got too much I got too much sauce. I got too many good guys around me to not do work. I got that competition. I mean that work. Kirk is killing it. I gotta do. I gotta. I gotta Let's go. Let's go, man. Okay, well, I will put all that in the show notes. Dad.Work/Podcast and I gotta do another one. These with you, man. This has been amazing. So thank you very much for taking the time and for sharing all your wisdom, bro. Thank you for having me. Thanks.

Thank you for listening to the dad work podcast. That's it for this episode. But if you would like to stay in touch between weekly episodes, why don't you go over to Instagram and follow me there because I draw up a number of things throughout the week that are related to what we talked about on this podcast but usually go a little bit deeper. provide some tips you can find me on Instagram at dadwork.curt. That's DADWORK.CURT And please, if you have been getting something out of this podcast, if it has touched you if it has improved your marriage or parenting or your life, would you please leave a quick review on Apple or Spotify. leave a rating. If you have a few extra seconds, leave a quick review. That's the best way that we can get this work in the hands of more fathers. And I truly believe that we change the world, one father at a time because each father that parents better that loves better raises children who do the same. And in just a couple of generations. I feel like we could be living in a world much better than the one we live in today. Your review will help along that path. And I thank you so much for being here to listen until next week. We'll see you then.

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