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Today’s guest is Josh Frank

We go deep talking about:

  • The light that shines in a dad’s life immediately after he has kids
  • Boundaries we have when it comes to our phones
  • Growth mindset talks to you have with your kids
  • How to support our kids in failure
  • The distinction between playing and practicing with our kids
  • The importance of therapy and counselling
  • Mental Health and Family
  • Entrepreneurship
  • Maintaining boundaries in business

Josh helps countless eCommerce businesses boost their revenue as the founder of Test Triggers. Father to two boys, he builds his business to fit his family, not the other way around. 

Mentioned on this episode:
Freedom

Find Josh online at:

Website: https://testtriggers.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/joshfrank/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-frank-9661004/

Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the Dad.Work podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of Dad.Work. Today's guest is Josh Frank, we go deep talking about the light that shines in a dad's life immediately after he has kids boundaries we have when it comes to our phones, growth mindset talks to have with your kids, how to support our kids and failure. The distinction between playing and practicing with our kids, the importance of therapy and counseling, mental health and family, entrepreneurship and maintaining boundaries in business. Josh helps countless ecommerce businesses boost their revenue as the founder of test triggers, father to two boys, he builds his business to fit his family, not the other way around. You can find Josh online, on Twitter at Josh Frank, or at his website, test triggers.com. I'm excited to get into this, Josh and I are both members of a community called the Dynamite Circle, which is a community of entrepreneurs who travel or who are location independent. And I just love how this is not Josh's normal thing. He's not into this space. He's, you know, just a dad with a business doing his best. And he's got some amazing tips. And he just goes very vulnerable. He's very open. And I really, really appreciate that he showed up for this because he certainly didn't have to, I reached out and asked if there would be anybody in this community who would share their tips and their wisdom and their expertise. And Josh stepped up and man, I'm just so grateful for dads like Josh, he's doing a great job building a business. He's doing a great job building a family. So I hope you get a lot out of this one. Whether you're interested in entrepreneurship, growth mindset, or perhaps the best part of this episode actually, is Josh's distinction between playing and practicing with our kids. I think you'll love this, it gave me a new perspective that I hope you can bring to your own life so that you can both support your kids and push them when they need to be pushed. With that being said, let's dive into this episode with Josh Frank.

Josh Frank, thank you for joining me today. And welcome to the Dad.Work podcast man, I'm pumped to have you as a as a brother in this community we're a part of and really looking forward to diving into your experience.

Josh Frank 2:03

Yeah, Curt, thanks for the invite. I'm excited to chat and share some stories. And also, you know, I think I'm gonna maybe pick your brain a little bit on on on fatherhood.

Curt Storring 2:15

Amazing. Yeah, I can't wait for that, actually. And the reason that I had you on is because we are a part of this community for, at least when I joined this sort of premise was traveling entrepreneurs, location independent business owners. And I mean, I spent two years overseas, I lived in Asia and Europe with my kids. And that was a fantastic, just growing opportunity for me. And being in that same sort of space. I was just telling you before this, like, I know that you've got a very thoughtful approach to how you do business to how you sort of manage your life and your family. And that's why I wanted to have you on and I love the points that you brought up that came up for your journey, which we're going to get into everything from growth mindset, to therapy, to resistance to therapy, mental health, and then business as well, because you are a successful business owner. But the thing that I want to start with is just your journey into fatherhood. And I always ask this question to men on the show, because my journey into fatherhood was one of like, misery, anger, disappointment, frustration, like just I was the worst dad for a long time. And it was like the greatest gift because it highlighted all the crap that I needed to deal with mentally, and like in my heart to grow as a man. So was your transition into fatherhood smooth? And if so, how? And if it wasn't, what did it look like for you?

Josh Frank 3:35

Yeah, so So let's start with something you said there that that really picked something in my mind, when you mentioned that, you know, like, having your kids sort of shined a light on your own your own things, let's call them and there is certainly that is so so true for myself as well. I mean, nothing will point to your insecurities, or the things that you don't like about yourself until you start having kids and, and it's just such an immediate light, shine and all those things. I mean, as far as my journey into fatherhood, I guess maybe I feel almost a typical in this sense, in speaking with friends and other entrepreneurs, where a lot of people base they stay so long that I'm not sure I want kids phase, you know, and they push it off as like long as possible. I always knew that I wanted to be a dad, I always knew that I wanted that to be a part of my journey, even if that journey involved entrepreneurship. So as far as you know, you know, approaching having kids it was it was scary for all the reasons should be scary, but I felt like this was this was my journey. This is my path. Like, I think that a lot of that came from wonderful childhood, two loving parents, but both of them worked a lot. And they did that to give us a bunch of incredible opportunities, but you sort of go like shit, I might do that a little differently when I have kids right. So, so so that was a lot of you know, when I came into fatherhood I definitely had a lot of thoughts on like, on how I wanted to do things. And what's the famous Mike Tyson quote, like, it's a plan until you get punched in the face. Having the kid is getting punched in the face and, and you definitely you go, oh shit, six months have gone by what about all those things I said I was gonna do right. So that's where like you said that the light gets shot shown on on all those things and you go, Well, shit, I better figure out a way to start making my imprint, or else, you know, it's going to happen one way or the other, right? The time is gonna go by. And it's whether or not you're actually, you know, doing those guiding principles you thought before you had kids when you had time to think.

Curt Storring 5:38

And what were some of those things that the light shone on that you're like, Okay, I got to deal with this sooner than later.

Josh Frank 5:45

Yeah, so I would say that the biggest thing was probably, like, am I spending time with my kid? Or am I just there with my kids? Or am I spending like, quality time and the biggest disrupter for that? Like, no doubt is the phone. You know, so like, I run a business, an agency that works with E commerce clients, and the nature of my business is we're making these like, changes to sites that get sometimes millions of visitors a month. And if one little thing is wrong, breaks, that's always the fear in the back of my mind. So that's these reasons why you're you're checking your email, you're checking your slack, and you're doing that, you know, while your kids in front of you playing Legos, and you're like, I'm there, it's good. And then there's like, they'll always be one of those moments where your kid you realize your kid asks you something, right? And you got like, what? Because you're checking like an email. Right? So that was one of the first things that I noticed, like, oh, shit, man, you are, you're there. But you're not, you're not giving it? You're also, you know, putting the phone away has been a big thing for me, especially now that I have two boys. It's just like, adding the phone. You're just you're gonna miss a bloody nose real quick. Yeah, that would be that's one of the first ones that that, that that was exposed, right?

Curt Storring 6:57

Yeah, can you go into whether or not you have boundaries around your phone, this is something that I've been really focused on lately. Because with my business as well, I'm, you know, interacting with people. And for me, it's like Instagram, and Facebook and email and stuff like that. And I'm creating content, and I'm putting content out. So in the one hand, I can like justify being on my phone. On the other hand, like, I can do a lot better work that has no distractions when I'm actually on the desktop. And, you know, don't have to deal with that. So I was noticing that with my phone in my pocket upstairs, I would check to see how my stuff was doing. I like, you know, you just get in there and see, like, what the stats are like, and suddenly you're like, you know, an hour deep into scrolling mindlessly, and I'm just going like, I've missed this last hour, what am I doing. And so I made a simple boundary that my phone doesn't leave my office, I'm down for four hours a day on the phone to two hours a day, because I made a significant commitment to that in q4. And it's working man like, I've got so much more time and space. So do you have things like that, that you build in? Or what is your sort of phone time routine?

Josh Frank 7:59

Yeah, so I have a I have a couple of things on this because I am, I'm the type of person where if there's a loophole, like I'll find it, right, if it's, you know, trying to not be on my phone, but I, I just told myself, I would try and scale it down. If that doesn't work for me. So I have a couple of tools that I use and boundaries as well. So this this is actually like, this is in my work life and in my personal life. So like, let's say I have to, you know, write a dreaded email that I don't want to write to a client, right? I'll play around on Twitter and act like I'm growing an audience and all these things. But in reality, I'm just def Doom scrolling. Right, but so I have a tool I use called freedom. I think the I think the URL is freedom.to. But basically, I can set up a list of apps on my phone and desktop websites. And I say, you know, every day, from 6am to 11am, there's blocked, I can't use them. There's no password, even if I restart my computer. It just won't let me go to Facebook, Twitter, whatever. I think there's a pretty long list now. Because I started to get into like, maybe if I check the local news, right, so that's really bad. Terrible, I'm terrible. So that, that Apple will get like, blocked all social. During the times of dams, I'm supposed to be doing focus work. The other thing would be a physical boundary, like in the house. So basically, from the time that the kids come home from school and daycare through dinnertime, like it's just up on a shelf, where like, if I need to go over and like check something, that's fine, but I can't sit down. That's my role, right? Like, can't like, I can't sit on the couch with because it's just like, I'm gone. All of a sudden, I'm looking at sports and whatever else. So it's kinda like on a shelf. And then, you know, after dinner when the kids go to bed, things like that, if I want to like check, I kind of like let myself go at that point, because it's just a winding down thing. Now, one last thing, I think this was this was from a podcast and probably like, I Want to say it was a it was a Tim Ferriss thing. But it was, like thinking about yourself on a Friday or a Saturday morning, let's say a Saturday morning, and you go, like, I'm gonna just do a quick email check. And the I think the thought experiment or whatever was saying to yourself, if I go in this inbox, and there's like some sort of small fire a task, or whatever, but I'm really not able to fix it, because it's a Saturday morning, and I'm about to take the kids to the zoo. What is the good and opening that up right now, and just letting myself know there's a problem? You know, I guess it's sort of like a Schrodinger cat thing, right? You don't know if there's a problem. Or if the cat's dead or alive in the box till you open it, right? Like, you don't know if there's a problem or not in your inbox until you open it. So just don't. You don't have the capacity to carefully handle all the things that come up in entrepreneurship and whatnot. And just don't open it, leave it till Monday, if it's a true versus someone will get hold of you, right.

Curt Storring 10:52

I resonate with that a lot. Because I have done the same sort of thing, like my routine used to be, I'd get up, you know, check my aura ring, I'd meditate stretch. And then I just like flick open the emails to see, you know, if anything needs my attention, I'm like, Well, I'm going to the gym now. And then I got to take the kids to school. So like, I'm not going to do anything for like three hours. And I was getting into the habit of like ruining my mornings when something came up. And so I just stopped checking my email in the morning. And one of the other things just on that, I think it probably was Tim Ferriss as well, which is why it's coming up is the question, would you wake up early to do the thing you're doing before bed, and this is sort of the flip side to the morning. If you are spending hours and hours at night before bed? Just scrolling on your phone? Ask yourself, Would you be willing to wake up at like 5am to do what you're doing now? And if not, like, don't do it. Because sleep which I'll talk about at some point in this podcast is flipping vital, like absolutely so important, especially showing up for dads like if you're not sleeping, you're going to get triggered so much easier. So that's just one last point on that, I suppose on parenting. Now I want to get into all the questions we had. But I'm wondering like, what kind of principles or guiding like behaviors or fundamentals you use as a parent? So like, are there certain things that you'll always do to make sure your kids feel a certain way so that they have this life? You know, support underneath? And what is your sort of parenting guideline look like?

Josh Frank 12:18

Yes, so So I really try not to get too technical and rigid with this. But if I can I, I try to boil things down to like, what's a mantra that can be repeated, because, like, the truth is, for lack of a better phrase, like when the shit hits the fan, with kids, like, I get overwhelmed if I'm like, Oh, I have this framework or workflow, I have to go through poor decision making. But if I just can settle it down to like a mantra, it tends to help. So for my, for my wife, and I, in that newborn stage, or let's call it like the first, you know, year or so, we would just say to each other like this too shall pass. And the thing that I loved about this, because it worked in the really tough moments. And it worked in the really like incredible grateful moments, too. So when you're, when you're really going through it with the kids, like let's say, sleep, they're not they're getting up every 90 minutes, it feels like this crying fit will never end. Like it's to remind yourself, but it will end like this too shall pass, this kid will go to sleep at some point. And then on the flip side, you know, when you're like you're holding your baby, and then they're sleeping your arm and it's just the most incredible feeling you can feel like this too shall pass, right? So to try and understand that I don't necessarily write in like a gratitude journal or anything but like to try and like enjoy those moments and understand that this is the reason why I'm not holding my baby and scrolling twitter, on the other hand, right? Like this is the reason why that's not a great idea. So that's definitely tended to help my wife. And now Now that my kids are a little bit older, they're one and a half and five. So especially obviously, with my five year old grit and resiliency is a big thing that my wife and I have talked about with with our children feeling like that's a cornerstone value, where it just no matter what times are, like, good or bad having written resiliency, it's gonna it's going to help. And so we started to discover and look into what's referred to as like fixed mindset versus growth mindset. Now, I am by no means an expert in this, but the kind of gist of it being we tend to talk to our children and each other in a very fixed mindset way, which is just telling them no matter what, like, you are great at this, you are strong, you are smart, almost like trying to project an affirmation onto them. Now, the problem with this becomes when the child gets to a situation, let's say it's a reading assignment or something and they're failing at it. And they think like, how could I possibly be failing at this, like, I'm smart, I've been told I'm smart, like, why can't I do this? Something's wrong. Now on the flip side of that, like thinking in terms of a growth mindset is and this will go back to like the mantra thing. So right now our our mantra with our son is we try hard things. It's not you know, we always win. It's not it's going to be okay, because sometimes things aren't okay, but it's we try harder. things. So the thought behind it and nothing will ever be perfect. But the thought behind it is, when kids are then challenged, their mantra is not like, I'm perfect. I'm smart. It's, I try hard things. So like, it's just the attempt of the hard thing. That is the goal, as opposed to being smart, where sometimes you are just simply not going to feel smart. And so I just, I noticed this a lot. I was recently on a kind of a zoom call for a family, baby shower, and they were going around giving advice, and the most common theme was like, Don't worry, you're gonna be a great parent. Don't worry, like, everything's gonna be great. In the background. I'm like, that's kind of bullshit, though. Because everything's not going to be great, right? There are gonna be so many tough times. And there are gonna be plenty of days where you will go, like, everyone keeps telling me I'm such a good mom, good dad. Like, why does this not feel right? And that was a big thing for me. Like, understand those really hard times? Again, baby just never stopped crying like whatever else that, you know, it's supposed to be hard. I don't think we talked about that enough.

Curt Storring 16:01

Yeah, that man, that is a perfect segue. That's exactly where I was gonna go after this. So it's beautiful that you lead into that. And I love first of all, just to touch on this and put like an exclamation point, the, this too shall pass during the good times. Because that is something we do as well. Like I woke up with my son the other day, I stayed with him, and he woke up really late. And I was just sitting there with, you know, one and a half year old. And there was like, nothing more perfect than that, like going outside gives me that feeling. Being in nature gives me that feeling. But waking up to the softness and going like this will not last like he's going to be five and then he's going to be 10, then he's going to be moved out like, Yeah, let's just sit with that. So finding that like mindfulness, man, I love that you apply that on the good side as well. And in terms of growth mindset, this is so so important, because I have I actually talked to a guy yesterday on the podcast, which will be airing probably just before this one. And he was saying that he works with young athletes. And one of the biggest things he's noticing is that kids will not make mistakes, like they will not fail, they will do anything to not screw up because the expectation is like a weigh in, in his case, at a sports like a we're paying a lot for this be you've been drilled into your head that you're perfect, you can do this, you can do anything. And then like the consequences for failure is, well, I'm a failure. And that lens for me really hard because like I have this perfectionist streak, it's this core wounding from abandonment, like, I'm not going to get into that, because I've talked about it before on this podcast. But it took me forever to legitimately fail at anything. And what that led to was looking perfect on the outside, but playing very, very small, and never really accessing the shadow the wound bind at all. So like, what else do you do with your kids to ensure that like, when they fail, it's not like, Oh, I'm an idiot, like, I can't do this. How do you like support them in failure?

Josh Frank 17:53

Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And I guess I'm going to start with something that happened like just last night, because it was sort of a bit of like an epiphany for me are, the five year old boy has recently gotten like, really into Legos and building things just like you know, fantastic. But what will happen is, is like he thinks so big, which is, which is wonderful. But then it's it's Daddy, let's build a nine storey skyscraper with the Legos. And that was that was what he wanted to do last night, like just before bedtime. And my first thought was like, like, like, I'm actually thinking of like, how are we can't actually do this? How am I supposed to tell him that we're not supposed to do this. And this has been I realized, as I was having this, like, self talk with myself that this is a recurring thing of, he wants to build something like really crazy, and it can't really be done, but I don't want to squash his dreams, right? And this thing just came to me of like, none of this matters. Just go downstairs and do Legos. Right? Like he's not gonna actually, like, pressure you on the third floor engineering. We ended up just making whatever Legos right it didn't, it was so silly to think that it was like, just sit down, have quality time start the Legos. And like by that time, you forgot about the skyscraper thing anyways, right? So but I guess that was kind of my own little fixed mindset thing that I had to like, fix, right. But with the small things we do with our kids is, we put them in positions that we kind of know they're going to fail, and then we just laugh about it. Like we just laugh about it. And I would say that the toughest thing with, you know, our toughest challenge in the last couple months has been food, right? And food is so difficult with kids. And so I'm I'm actually right now actively trying to look at some ways to like, is it best to just tell them eat it or nothing else or make them try? So I would say that's an area in growth mindset where I'm really trying to like do my own research on how can I facilitate this in the in the food department other than, like we've done with with other places, which is kind of setting up a small failure and laughing and trying again and saying, Well, that was silly, wasn't it as opposed to you know, and I think a lot of it comes From the reverse, which is like you had mentioned before, telling them they're perfect, you know, all attached to some ridiculous thing to say, you know, I just, I just started telling my, my son, we are watching some sports and he said, I'm faster than those guys. And I don't know you're not as opposed to like, I bet you are a little cheetah. That wasn't me. I just said a horse. Yeah, you're but your child, you're not as fast as them because they train every day. They eat special foods and diets, and they've been working since you were that they were they're lifting weights, right? Like, it wasn't to be me. It was just to say like, No, right? Like, if you would like to be that fast, you know, this is the path but but it's like, I don't know, so many things with kids are just met with like, Of course you are. Well, that's kind of confusing, isn't it?

Curt Storring 20:46

Yeah, man, this is all so good. And I love like putting them in positions of failure. And one of the things that has stopped me from doing that in the past is this. I mean, obviously from being a perfectionist myself, and this is sort of recently that I've tried to get out of this trap. But when we think about our kids failing, we often think about like, well, that reflects poorly on me. Like, I look like a loser, I look like a failure all the other parents who are obsessed with perfection, which like from the sounds when almost everyone is is gonna look at me and know that I am no good. And so like, I think that the failure for a lot of people to do that is simply like a self confidence thing. Like you can't handle other people being judgmental of you, even though this is what's right. And so we just go along with it. And we, you know, do things that are not good for our kids. So I love doing the hard things and having those talks because a lot of people as well. It sounds like you do not have a problem, just like having honest conversations with your kids. Like they're not teeny tiny little kids who don't get it like you can, you know, massage how you speak to them. But what I'm hearing is like you you're okay, just being like No, dude, like, they work. This is how it's done. If you want to do this, here's the real steps, and just giving them that like honest feedback that not babying them in a sense, if that makes sense. would do. So do you think about that? Like, how do you how do you talk to them?

Josh Frank 22:06

Yeah, I think that's the, the main thing is, you know, and again, I want to preface like, it's not, you know, making him cry, because I told him he wasn't this or wasn't that right. It's very much like, how much curiosity can I like get into his mind about something he's clearly interested in or wanting to do, as opposed to just saying, like, it just sometimes when you just like, say stuff, you're you say it and you go, that's just not true. Like, if you say, like, you're the best whatever. Like, in the world, it's like, what's the point of saying that versus saying, like, you know, I'm so proud of how much better you've gotten at this. And I'm so proud of how many times you've tried this, like, to me, that's just so much more of a fulfilling thing for a kid to hear than like when they eventually go like, yeah, it was weird that my dad would say, I'm the best baseball player in the world until I was 15. And then I realized, like, holy, like, you know, like, then then I went to a really hard workout, and like, everyone was better than me. And I felt like shit, which I would imagine happens for a ton of kids. Now, I'm certainly not saying that I'm fixing that by what I'm saying to my kid. But I am certainly trying to put both my boys in a position to where they want to be in the room of people that are better than them. They want to be the, you know, the least educated in a row so that they can learn more, I don't, you know, wanting to always put yourself in a room where you're the best that everything, you know, can end up being a pretty lonely feeling, right? Because you don't, what do you worry? Where is your girl from that as opposed to being somewhere where you can make friends and learn and get better?

Curt Storring 23:32

Yeah, and there's so much that's coming up. For me that's like this balance between affirmation and challenge. So on the one hand, like, you want to make sure that they know you are securely attached to them. And we talk about secure attachment on this podcast a lot. And on the other hand, like boys, especially, and probably girls, I'm not as familiar because I only have boys. But boys especially require a challenge, I think, to grow into capable, resilient men. And when we tell them like or when we like, for example, I play hockey in the back with my kids. And like, I don't let them take the ball for me. Like, No way, man, you're gonna work for this. Because like, oh, look, you scored on Daddy, oh, you're so good. And then like you said, they're going to get to someone who actually knows the play. And they'll be like, Oh, I hate this. Like, I'm no good. I'm not going to try anymore. And like, we get that sometimes with my oldest. He's like, Oh, I can't get I'm not going to try. I can't do this. And it's like, well keep practicing then, like, I have been doing this for like 30 years longer than you have kids. So you know, it gets in perspective and like these little lessons to push them. And it's so important. Just want to reiterate the balance that you mentioned, which is like it's not to make them cry, because there are slave driving dads out there. Like I've heard it. Just like I used to have kids in my hockey team, the parents would be screaming at their kid to like get up or do this or do that. And it's like you can only when if you're like challenged and then 20 Years go by they go to therapy and they're like, Well, I guess my dad did love me. I just didn't really see it. It's like well, like you don't have to be that hard. You can also push them in this country. tainer have, I love you no matter what, like, I would love for you to grow because it's fulfilling to you. And I love you no matter what you do. So is that balance something that you actively think about?

Josh Frank 25:11

Yeah, so here's something that just now my oldest because he's he's turning five is we've made the transition from, let's say it's a game or like I'm, like, I don't know, 80% of regular old dads out there, I'm pretty golf obsessed, right? So golf and a little bit of like football and whatever else. But we've made this transition now too. Because I struggle a lot with like, do you want to give them the confidence and let him play and let him think he's beating you? Or do is it going to be like, he's 15 he finally kicked my ass at this. And he's going to have like, a triumphant, like the best day ever. Right? So what I've done around that is, we when we're doing a game, it's like, we are either like having fun practicing. Or we're playing a game. And if we're playing a game, like, I'm going to play it against you not going to try and hurt you. But like, you know, we're gonna play the game. So and that this this past summer of playing golf, I said, Listen, first of all, anytime you want to come with me, if you want to just sit in the cart and eat like m&ms, like that's great. Father, Son time, you don't have to do any of this. You know, I would have been terrible if I were Tiger Woods is dead. But if you want to play like the game of golf, then we'll put a ball here really close to the hole, but you have to get it all the way in. And that's like, we're either goofing or having fun or playing a game. And yeah, that we were doing that with the, you know, toss around the football in the basement or something. And he always tries to rip the ball out of my hands and like never can and I said, Well, you know, I'm holding on it really tight. And just a couple nights ago, he grabbed my finger and like bent it backwards. And that ball popped out really quick. And he freaked is like Daddy, I got it. In my back my mind. I was like what a little savage. But I was like, kind of proud at the same time. Like, we figured out a way like grab the smallest thing my dad's got hold on to this thing and is trying to break this finger up.

Curt Storring 26:58

Man, I have had that exact same thing. We do this thing called Keep away. And it's just like there's a ball or a pillow. And I just like hold on to it and they cannot get it. And it's the same thing. Like one of them will come on my back and like try and tickle me the other one to like pry my fingers open. And it's just like the craziest thing but it's so good because they like learn like you said they like okay, where's the where's the points where I can leverage. I love that. I really love the idea. That's

Josh Frank 27:22

a hilarious moment, though. I was like, I was like, first of all, I'll Second of all, like, yeah, what like you look like, and I saw him looking and like thinking like, what am I gonna do? I just went for it.

Curt Storring 27:34

Night? Well, it's better than then than not shots or something. So

Josh Frank 27:38

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I have been lucky enough to stay away from that, though. So far. So

Curt Storring 27:43

yeah, no, I just love the idea. And sort of putting this on a macro scale is setting a container between playing and practicing. I think that's a really important point. And I'm glad you brought it up. Because it does allow for that nuance. So you're not like, you know, crushing them every time you play a game. But it's like, okay, there is an arena to try really hard to beat me. And there's an arena where I'm going to be like, coach, not competitor. Yeah, yeah, I just, I just want to sort of underscore that. I want to switch gears just a little bit and get into to therapy. And this is something that like, I've had psychiatrists on, I've talked to a lot of guys who've gone to therapy, I've talked to coaches, people going to counseling, like there's this whole spectrum of things to do to heal your shit. And I talk about that a lot. I think the fundamental thing to become a better dad is to heal your own shed, so you don't pass it on. So you're not triggered. And still, like even in this day and age of like mental health campaigns on Twitter, and whatever else it is, there's a load of men out there who are like, who I'm not going to go to therapy. Like, I just, I ain't going to do that. I'll be weak, whatever it is. But you told me that like you went, and it really did good things for you, but that you were resistant? Could you just walk us through your journey with therapy?

Josh Frank 28:55

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say, have been in therapy now for I want to say three years. But leading up to that, like, I wouldn't necessarily be the person that would outwardly say like, no therapies for for the weak minded or whatever else if we were talking about it, so yeah, but my thought was always, if you expect to be great at anything, you get like a coach, right? And what more important than, you know, what's between your ears and, and for me again, being in business, like that's what I use all the time. That's my instrument writer. That's my my talent, so to speak. So why wouldn't you hone in coach that but I could say that a lot. But then in the back of our mind look like you're not on the couch, dude. You're not talking to somebody. Right? And so three years ago, in April, my uncle took his own life. He hung himself in his home, and this would have been somebody growing up who was just a massive male role model for me. Somebody I just looked up to immensely. I think a lot of men have that like oh, He was like, able to be more fun than your dad, because he's not your dad, you know, gets to do all the fun stuff and then give you back the end of the day. And this was this was that guy for me, I just, I just looked up to him so much as a, you know, really in the male role model way of the things that he did, and just the person that he was, and so it was 48 hours after that, or I had an appointment, and I was talking to somebody, it shook me. So at that time, I had a one that my just a one and a half year old boy. And it just, I thought how this top is life gets, I never want to quit, you know, on my kids, and anyone that's been through a suicide close to then get really, really angry. In the immediacy, you just get so mad at this person for like, how could they do this. And so I again, I started therapy to try and understand like, one, I don't want to be angry, I don't want to be, you know, I want to I want to, I know that any able minded person would like, come and get this process. So that was super important to me. But it's obviously been three years now. And I would say two of the biggest things for me about therapy. One is one is really, really simple, which is just, I think all of us give way too much credence to our self talk. And we don't understand how absurd some of the things that we can say to ourselves in our heads are until you say them out loud, yet, no one's gonna force you to say them out loud until you go see a therapist, and they are just going to like, ask you questions, they're gonna ask you what you were thinking, and you're going to say it out loud, you're going to go home. Like, that does sound ridiculous when I say it out loud, right? The reason for holding back on getting a new job or going out on your own or buying a new house or proposing to somebody like, you think about the little objections you can go, that is now that I've said that out loud, that is ridiculous. And sometimes, like, that's just a lot of times, it's just enough to, to, like, make you like, you know, do something different. The other thing would just be like, understanding that your self talk is not your actions. It's not who you are, it's not it is your like anxiety talking it is it is your little lizard brain. And if you are, you know, cursed to have a very active one, like I am myself, like, it's a lot of work to quiet that down. And I have put as much you know, therapy as I've been and I've never been I've not been able to really change that voice. So I just like, understand it's there. And I just don't I just make it quieter, right? Or I make it or I just tell it like, yep, you've done your part now. But like I'm gonna move on anyway. So yeah, therapy has been been huge for me.

Curt Storring 32:39

Yeah, thank you for sharing all that. And I love what you said about self talk. And while I would never tell men not to go to professional counseling therapy, one of the things about men's groups, which I'm big on is just the chance to like speak, like I have only had breakthroughs, because I've been able to speak and then like either the absurdity comes out, or the words on top, finally get all taken away. And what you're left with is like the truth underneath. And so I love what you said, even if it's like a trusted friend or a men's group, like therapy is a great way to go there on purpose. And I love that you are proactive about that. And that's honestly something I have not heard a lot of. And I know there was like this very sudden, traumatic, tragic event, which gave rise to it. But imagine if we just thought of our brains as we do have our bodies, those of us who go to the gym, like you got to exercise it, you got to keep it healthy mental health is like 100% Real, there's no doubt about that. And so why wouldn't you get like you said, coaches, and man are there like a couple of specific things that you've worked on in therapy, or like that have you've seen results from and I know, it's not necessarily like a result based thing. But beyond quieting that lizard brain beyond being able to be like, thanks for what you're doing. And now go away? Like, are there other examples of just how good this has been for you?

Josh Frank 34:00

Yeah, so, um, let's talk about setting boundaries would be a big one in this this goes and professional life personal life and, and I think that, again, and this is sort of what what you were saying a minute ago about getting to the deeper level, oftentimes, I will bring a small problem to therapy. And by the end, it's like, okay, I now see how this is a pattern that is happening in my life, and that it's not just doesn't just need to be fixed at this time. It needs to be like, like a mental for a system for working through these things. So I remember taking a problem to my therapist and saying, hey, you know, this particular client is like, unreasonable, not, you know, is just driving me crazy. Let's just put it that way. Right. And it was because none of my boundaries were respected because I didn't set the boundaries, right. I just assumed that this will always work out. Most of my clients aren't like this, but in this case, it was saying, okay, hey, you know, I work these hours, if it's an emergency here exactly give me all these boundaries, like, this is how to contact me. This is what an emergency really is, you know, all these things that I was so, so terrified to, like, send an email that said, hey, you know, I understand that. X y&z happened, you know, the problem with this is, you know, a couple of sentences on it drives me crazy takes me away from my family in so many words, but I was so scared to, like, send that email that like, this is this is no bullshit. I remember coming to my office because it was a huge client. For me. I came to my office, like in the evening, and, like, poured myself a drink to like write an email, which, you know, like, I don't recommend drinking, because you need to, like, you know, but but whatever, it worked for me, I was like, okay, you know, this is for me, let's have a drink. And I sent the email. And the response I got was, okay, sounds great. I apologize. And like, the, it was, like, done, everything was fine. You know, and, and so, in the clients mind, he was thinking that we were like, had this more like, working relationship. And he's like, I treated you like, like, we were called your co founder or something. I said, that's great. But like, should go. So but but with that being said, these opportunity to sit to set boundaries with, you know, laws, grandparents, you know, things where it's Hey, you know, for us, it's a lot about, you know, we're my wife and I are, we try, we try really hard to limit sugar, we just do just plain old sugar. And you also, you know, it's a simple everyone's have this thing with with grandparents and monologues and whatever that on the sugar soft, right? But, but sticking the the more you it's, it's actually the same as raising kids, right? If you set a boundary with your kids, the quicker you stick to it the first time, like, the easier everything is it's the same with with kids, right? The moment that that kid starts to think that if they wind, they're going to get the thing that you just told them no to like, all you're doing is training, training them to whine. And it's so much harder that second third time than if you just say like, you know, whatever that we don't do, we don't do dessert every night just doesn't happen. Right, whatever the case may be, but that definitely comes full circle with the kids, right? It's like, the quicker you set the boundary. And the quicker you are to just say like, Absolutely not. It's just not it's just, it's just a no switch. It's not a maybe it's not a dimmer switch. It's a no. The often the better those were.

Curt Storring 37:29

Yeah, and that boundaries are so important that I think this is one of those like hidden issues that people are like, Oh, why is this so wrong in my life. And there's a lot of like external things that they could point to. But I believe, from what I've seen, like the vast majority of people seem to struggle with boundaries. And whether that's because you don't think you're worth setting the boundaries or because you want to be helpful. You're like saving people as one of your, you know, the hats you put on, when it comes to boundaries. Like, in my experience, everything gets better, even though, like you said, it's like one of the hardest things to do. Every time I've been in a similar situation, like panicked, and like sweating and shaking. And like if I send this while then like, my life's over, so like, I better just enjoy this time that I'm still alive. Because if I say something like I am done, it's literally never turned into anything beyond what you just said, which is like, okay, sorry, I didn't know. Oh, is that it? Okay, and so like, just last thing, before we jump into business, is there a way that you can like, just explain what boundaries mean to you? Because the way I think about it is just like something that feels bad to you, that you are not willing to, like, accept? And that's, I don't know, I don't know what a better way to put it is like something that feels like a no. And that requires you to be sort of in touch with how you're feeling. But like, what do you think about that? Is there a better way to put that?

Josh Frank 38:55

Yeah, so I guess I just think of it in terms of everyone has their own set of, of kind of principles and values. And we can talk about like, large, you know, life guiding principles, but also just think just the way you do things and you do those things, because you believe that, like, that's what will help you and your family get to the best place, right? And each person is entitled to the way that they do those right. And so whenever I feel like someone is sort of like there's like stuffing with a muddy shoe on one of my little values or principles and, and that might mean something like again, like I said, but the kids like they just aren't fed treats, right? Treats are a part of just like, every time you do something great, you get like a Reese's bar, or Reese's candy. That's just not something we believe in. Right? So that but it's also like for me every morning from 8am to 11am is like uninterrupted work time. So like that also means that like sometimes I have to say to my wife like hey, you know if you have like a work thing you need to vent about like Now's not the time, right like this is not it can wait until after lunch or something like please do that because that, that puts a muddy shoe on like my three hours of uninterrupted morning work where I grow the business and, and I know that those are things for the greater good of our family, but it's very, very, very easy to give them up because your family needs you for something miniscule in the moment. But like, you just it's like, was like death by 1000 cuts or something right, that will like quickly happen, and it'll erode. And again, I think that the, the biggest thing with the boundaries and this and it's definitely the toughest part is setting it like firmly, the first time it comes up doesn't and not going, not giving in on that time. Because that you're just setting the tone for how it goes. It's just just basic habit forming really, I mean, it's the same thing that when I remember in sleep training our first child that we may be paid to hire like a sleep coach, it was going so poorly that we were getting sleep. And she had just said to us, like, Listen, if somebody woke you up every two hours and gave you like french fries, like a hamburger and like a chocolate shake, you would start to get up after an hour and 15 minutes and scream for your hamburger and french fries. And so stop rewarding the Kleenex, you need to like wean off of this. Because otherwise you are literally just training your child to get you up every two hours. So I see a similar thing, as you know, we sort of we get what we accept, and we get what we trained people around us to do.

Curt Storring 41:16

Yeah, that's a fantastic point. And the consequences of not doing that is like typically resentment, right? Like you let your wife into you. And you're like, I should be working right now. But like, I gotta be here and like, like, fuck, like, I didn't want that. And now I'm mad at her are mad at myself. And if you just like set the boundaries, understand that you are worth setting boundaries for which I think a lot of dads are like, I just gotta be the rock and the punching bag and all that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, I still see that quite a lot. But yeah, set those boundaries for you. Because your mental health in the family is vital. If you're not showing up your best, like you're screwing your whole family.

Josh Frank 41:48

So here's a little like trick that came from therapy, which is, when you have one of those moments where you like, you know, you have like an angry outburst. Or, you know, you respond your wife in a way that's just really not, not you and you feel bad about it. Like, it typically means that at some point in that situation, or earlier in that day, like you let a boundary get broken. And like this is the light come up. And from that, so like working backwards from that. And I think you basically outlined it, right? It's like you're you're, you tell, like I might tell my wife, like at seven o'clock located the boy shut down, actually go do some do some work. And then I'll get the look of like, I'll come on, like, we're supposed to, like, this is supposed to be our time and I'll go, you know, this is bullshit, I gotta make all this money to pay for this all this random, like crap, you know. And then when in reality, I'm just mad at myself. Because earlier in the day, when I was supposed to have my three hours of uninterrupted work, like whether it was who knows any any number of things, like I let break those boundaries and not get that work done. It just, I'm just really just upset with myself. It's not. It's nothing to do. But of course, we snap on those who love the most because I know that she's going to eventually go like I understand, you know, I'm not gonna apologize and make it all right. But it didn't have to ever happen.

Curt Storring 43:01

Yeah, oh, that's a good point, too, about just like giving, giving your worst to the people closest to you. I did that forever, man. And I don't want to get into that. But I just want to like know that you can please get to do

Josh Frank 43:13

it to get to do it too. Right? We just had, you know, we talked to our kids, teachers and daycare people and they go, especially like our my, our year and a half year old is like a little bit of a bear at home and he like can throw a tantrum with the best of them. And they're like, we've just absolutely never seen that here. Not once. He shares everything when it's like, it's hilarious. And I go, Well, yes. Same thing. Like the kids, when they're in the comfort of their own home. They're just gonna go buck wild, because they know that like, you know, maybe that's a sign that they know, they know they have our unconditional love, you know?

Curt Storring 43:42

Yeah. And that's exactly it was a day. Yeah, I saw something the other day about like the reason you should feel great that your kid brings the tantrums to you because that means you're safe. Like that's what we want. We want the secure attachment where like the one place they feel safe to go like apeshit is with you and like minutes triggering a lot but like look at the other side as well. Speaking of sort of your your business boundaries, like with this client, let's get into that in the last 10 minutes here. And just like I want to hear your story from like nine to five into business owner into successful business owner. Were you a business owner before you had kids? Like what was your journey out of the typical sort of cubicle life or whatever your job was into entrepreneurship?

Josh Frank 44:27

Yes. So even as a as a child, I was always fascinated by work. Like I love the idea like when I was a young kid of like shoveling snow and the people just give you money to shovel snow and I was like, This is great. This takes like 20 meg I like I was like nine I love being outside anyways, I you know, so I like would do that and do the paper outs I remember working in the mailroom of my the law firm that my dad worked at when I was like 15 for like five bucks an hour. And that would just they would give us mail that was going to be walking around downtown Detroit like delivered to other law firms. And I was like, and they would give you like a like a per diem for lunch. And I was like, I just get to walk around outside in the sun, like delivering melodies, cool skyscrapers and like, they're going to pay for my lunch and pay me those are the best, I just thought was the coolest thing ever. I would like sweet pair, my grandfather's barbershop, like, I just did all these random things, but I just, I just I love like seeing as odd as it sounds, I love like seeing commerce, I love like seeing like, I don't know that stuff happened. And so after college, I worked at a couple of E commerce companies. So one that sold recording studio equipment. So like, I mean, the giant mixing boards you see in like movies, they would sell those to like all these incredible studios. And it's a really neat setup. And but I started as I was there to like, apply, you know, I had this a little bit of a background in tech, and a little bit of a background in like, marketing and psychology. And so I sort of felt like online stores and online shopping kind of like brought all these things together. So I worked for that company than another startup. And one day, we all walked into work at the startup and it was like, you know, hey, we're being acquired. And this wasn't like a new acquisition, it was like an Oh, shit. Like, we're all done. So that was obviously scary. But I knew I had 30 days of like, yeah, 30 more days. And then like, you know, we're cutting everybody loose. So I freaked out. But I was saying to myself, like, you've always said you wanted to like go out on your own, you always said you wanted to do consulting or start an agency and help other brands. And I had this thing in the back of my mind of people always talk about the massive risk of like, going out on your own. But to me, I I always thought of it as I only have one boss, like you have one boss when you work in a nine, that traditional nine to five, right? So it's just one person's decision to like fire you. But if I just had like five clients, like in one fired me, it wouldn't be the end of the world, right? Like that always, like made sense. To me. It's like, why do people act like having a job is so safe when you only have one job, as opposed to clients or customers, whatever, where like, one can fire you every day. You know, if you have like, if you have hundreds of customers paying 50 bucks for something, right? That sort of gave me some confidence. And you know, people always said like, you're the guy to go to for like how to get higher conversion rates on your, you know, ecommerce stores. I was like, yeah, and then I was like, why don't you just lean into that and just be that guy? Right? Like, just start it. It all crystallized because my back was against the wall. And I think that, you know, I have I have fought against that a lot in my life. And like, Why do I not want to do anything until my back is against the wall? And I've just started to say like, Screw it, why don't I just purposefully put my back against the wall sometimes and like, see what comes out? You know, like, and that was something that worked, there was like, It all became so much more clear when, you know, let's say like the proverbial like, you know, history paper was due at 9am. You know, and it was 8pm the night before, like, all of a sudden you go like, what's gonna get done, right? And I've admittedly always kind of kind of been that person.

Curt Storring 47:56

Yeah, thank you, man. It's seems like you're one of those do today do today sorts where, you know, started July 2, what, just before we get any more into like the specifics of business, when else have you put your back against the wall on purpose.

Josh Frank 48:12

So let's say I'll give a small one recently, which was, you know, I have consulting clients, but I've always wanted to break out more into, like, selling some of my knowledge, right? So instead of just having a client saying like, Hey, here's the ultimate ecommerce, you know, conversion rate checklist, or whatever. And so, I was like, you've talked about doing stuff like this for a long time, and yet, like you never have. And so I said, Well, the first thing is binary, just launch a preorder of the product now. And then why don't I schedule a tweet, scheduled to go live and then schedule a tweet a series of tweets that like announced, like, Hey, this is going live. And like, do like an email. So like, all these things are already set in motion, that I could Yes, go in and like, stop them. But like, it was just enough for me to say like, Alright, now your backs against the wall, you've got a week and a half, like, you know, it would be really embarrassing to go and like, stop all those things you set in motion to like, announce this thing. It'd be easier to just do the damn thing. Right? So that was like, a little bit of engineering, like my back against the wall and saying, like, you know, just set it out there already be done. And then just go finish it.

Curt Storring 49:16

Yeah, that's such a great idea. And I've been doing some of that in this in my own business as well. Just like you say, you something's coming and then like, figure it out, you know, the week before just like, know that you're going to do. Yeah, go ahead.

Josh Frank 49:28

So let's say like, like, for instance, like in my business, each client is worth you know, 1000s a month. And I know that like a product like this I'm creating isn't going to do that for any in any short amount of time, right? It's going to take time you have to like promote it and whatever else so for me, I've always gone with the you know, why don't I just go like cold call or cold email a few companies are like us my relationships and oh, there's that there's that lead that's in there. Like I'll always just try and go for just when I get a new client, right, but then it's like, remind myself Wait a minute, like I don't I want this diversification of revenue comes in and have some dedicated to clients, some dedicated to customers that are purchasing like an e book or a checklist and things like that. So I had to like, I had to almost like trick myself into doing it, which, like, I don't know if anybody else like feels this way, but I don't want to sound like an inherently lazy person I just inherently like, I just won't do the things directly in front of me. And I kind of struggled to see the the big picture. And I've never been a big like five year 10 Year Plan person. So like, I just sometimes need to trick myself into like getting to where I want to go. But I've I have tried to learn to just just just quit. I've been fighting against him for so long. Like why not just engineer ways to say like, alright, let's make this a little bit fun. And like I said, throw my back against the wall and figure it out.

Curt Storring 50:46

Yeah, that's actually inspiring to hear that you like purposefully find discomfort, because it sounds like what you're saying is, comfort is easy, comfort thing in front of me comfort, something I don't have to think about. And that will keep getting me whatever inertia brings. On the other side of that is intentionality and like consciously choosing to do the things in your life. And that's for me, like one of my core fundamental principles. Values is intentionality. Like, I do not want to wake up one day and be like, Wow, life has been living me for the past year. I always want to be in the driver's seat, the author of my own life, if you will. So that's amazing to hear that you're like revert actually like engineering ways to keep yourself in the driver's seat.

Josh Frank 51:28

Yeah, I think that, again, like, I can only speak in my personal experience, but it is remarkably easy to backslide into that, right where you're just like, because you know what, just just getting up every day, just doing the job in front of you. Being a great father, being a great husband, trying to be a kind person, like, that's a day. That's the day and you could just do that day, every day. And then like you said, that you might look back on I always dreamed of starting that business, or I'd always dreamed of, you know, feeling like I was I was helping people at scale or something like that. And again, like, for me, personally, I kind of have to trick myself into like doing those things. Otherwise, you know, I will go a few months and go like shit, like, I haven't done anything besides, you know, what's what's asked of me, right? Like I haven't, like you said, acted with intentionality.

Curt Storring 52:25

Right? How's your time? Great. You good for a couple more minutes. Yeah, sure. Sweet. Okay, the last thing maybe we'll just finish it off on this is, I'm wondering like, when you made the transition, I know your back was against the wall, like your job was basically coming to an end. But did you have guardrails in place? To be like, okay, at least I know, I've got X amount in the bank, I've talked to my wife about this, she's on board, or are you just like, I'm just not going to get another job. Screw this.

Josh Frank 52:53

So I was dead set on doing this. Now, when the acquisition happened, I remember, like, there was like a parent company that came around and basically said to everybody, like, if you want to do like your same job, but over here, it'll be lateral. Like you want it like just hearing them say like, oh, like, absorb you. And you'll get to work for this huge conglomerate company and do the same thing and make the same amount of money. It was like such an unappealing offer, that I'm so thankful that like, that was like the backup plan was like that. And I was like, I am not doing that. But I am that just it felt like such a step backwards. It's such a like, admission of theater that I just wasn't going to let myself do it. And so I said like, we were in this it was a startups we were in this like, building with a lot of other startups. So I was like, just go to these are people you would like talk to in the lunchroom about e commerce whatever else like wanted to say like, Hey, if someone were to offer you like, you know, monthly checks to your website, ideas for optimization, like things like that, is that something you got to pay for? And they were like, Yeah, and I was like, Okay cool. Like can I send you an invoice What can I do that because I was so determined to like I did not want to take you know this this this job that like had no had no soul had no like interesting components to it. So there was that but I had no like, I was I was young we had just like bought a house I did not have much much like a nest egg to fall back on I just knew so again, like back against the wall. It was if I get X amount of clients at this amount per month, like that's what I was just making, right like just replace that just replaced that. So like it took a it took a few months, but it did not take as long as I thought.

Curt Storring 54:39

Yeah, that's always the way thanks to especially when you're hustling like that. I mean, that's what I heard is you got to have the balls to go up and be like, Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. Would you pay for that? And then like, Okay, now pay me. I love the hustle. Yeah,

Josh Frank 54:52

well, yeah, there was like, and that was always something that like, I will roll my eyes at like a friend that comes up to me it says like I had this you know business idea and I'm always like, okay, then you listen and you're like, Have you asked anyone to pay any amount of money for it? No, like, No, I'm like, Well, maybe you should like start. They're like, why don't want to ask anyone to pay for it yet. I'm like, okay, so until you're ready to do, you are not ready to start with I know. But whatever like, and people can look up, like, you know, whatever, it's Lean Startup, or creating an MVP of your idea. But like, that is the, the only way to prove it has any modicum of opportunity is that somebody will give you money for it. And if your friends will not even give you money for like people that like you've designed it for that, you know, will not give you money for it. Like, that's a good sign that you should move on to something else. And it's sort of like, it's sort of like we're talking about with with the kids earlier, it's like, the sooner you do, the sooner that someone is aware that like, there's a way to do this. And this is what you have to do to like, do that. Like, again, if your kid wants to do some sport, it's like, no, no, unless you're doing those things like you will not be the fastest person in the world, right? Like, unless you're asking people to give you money in exchange for a service or a product, like you are not doing a business.

Curt Storring 56:03

Yeah, absolutely. And that is, it's so easy to be like, I got this idea. Ideas are like completely useless. And people are like, I'm an idea guy. And well, like, what, okay, what are you gonna do about that? And I've experienced that myself as well, because like my old business, my other business, I should say still have it is all about Google, SEO, Amazon, affiliate marketing, advertising, all that kind of stuff. And there wasn't a lot of like, individual needing to go out and like prove the concept. It was just like, can I rank in Google? And then like, well, people buy the things that I tell them are good. And like, yeah, so that's one way of doing it, I guess. But for this business Dad.Work. Like it's this quasi business thing where like, I want to help guys. And I know that you when you put money where your mouth is, you get more results. And so like, I've been trying to serve from my heart as much as possible, while offering things that I know work for me. So like courses of my best resources that helped me change my life, men's groups with other dads, communities, masterminds, all these things. And it took going out there and being like, I got this thing would you pay for it? And a few men, right? And I was like, Okay, now there's something here. 100% full throttle, like, let's go. And it's going to be a lifelong thing now, because it's actually changing lives. So like that first step, you're so right is like, you got to actually make sure people want this.

Josh Frank 57:26

And like, what if so, let's say you had gone through that same idea you had gone to like friends, and they had told you like, oh my god, Curt. Like, what? It's such an awesome idea. Like, that's incredible, you should totally do that. And they just kept saying that, then you came out with like, the landing page, you had the buy button, you send it to all your friends, and none of them bought it. Like, that's just it's disingenuous. It's just it sucks, right? Because, because that would date you had been given all of this, like, you know, sort of like fixed mindset praise, and like, you're going to be great at this, you're amazing. You're the best, you're the perfect person for that. And then like, in the back of the mind, that person thing like, Well, I'm not gonna buy well think well, not every product is for different people. Right? But like, but it just, and I, you know, I now at least, like, have had that conversation enough times where I had no, like, an elegant way to say like, Okay, listen, like, this is what you want to do. But you know, are you prepared to do like, and another thing that when people are talking about like navigating where they want to go next? This is a question I found to ask that kind of sort of, like helps people to rein in what they're trying to do is, if you imagine that business being successful, and then you imagine the problems that come along with that business, because every business has problems. Do those problems excite you? Or do they terrify you? Like, do they? Do they make you like, excited? Like, you might have like that nervous energy? But do you have that nervous? Good? Like you I want to go solve that problem? Or do you think like, that's the worst thing I could ever imagine? Like, because every business has problems. But just recently, I was talking with a friend who wanted to do like a kid's kind of kids vitamin supplement, supplement type business, and we were talking and we talked through that that kind of thought experiment is the worst thing that could happen is like, there's some kind of tainted thing in this and the kid like gets really sick. He's like, you know, I'm out. He's like, I can't that can't be the problem, right? Yeah, that can't the problem. I'm not I'm not willing to go to a place where like, at scale that's going to happen. Right, like, so. It's just an interesting thought experiment. Every business has problems. And, you know, if those problems like really excite you, then then go for it. But if the problems just be like something that keeps you up at night and makes you feel small, and like, I don't know if I would do that.

Curt Storring 59:39

Yeah, man, this is this has been so good. And I think I if I were to put an action step here, it would be that if you are thinking about this, and your back is against the wall, then like find the thing like Josh did, which is like oh people like tell me I'm this and then go sell it. Like ask people if they buy it and then be like, okay, like, here's my invoice just like Do you have any last sort of thoughts on that?

Josh Frank 1:00:01

Yeah, I would say like, people tend to shy away from that, because they think that every business needs to be like a new Shark Tank thing. When in reality, it's like, I mean, if you look about like the particularly like if you're in the states like the the environment right now, where I'm just like service businesses, like someone that cut your lawn and clean your gutters, like things like that, the bar is so low right now that there's like this massive opportunity in these really antiquated businesses. So if you're a person that's like fixes small little engines and blowers and lawn mowers, like, I bet you could kill it as a business, but you don't have to, like start SpaceX, right? Like, it's also a lot easier to get points a lot easier to start a second business than a first business. So like doing something where you are the, you know, I am the house painting guy, like, just lean into that and do that. And if you want to eventually do something different, like guess what you'll have like capital and you'll have something to like, experience Mills network second businesses a lot for its business.

Curt Storring 1:00:58

Totally. Absolutely, man. There's actually if that's you, and you're listening, there's a guy called Nick Huber, I think and he runs sweaty startups, which is just like exactly what you're saying. It's like screw all the SpaceX stuff screw, you know, Uber screw Silicon Valley. It's like, just start like a lawn mowing business start.

Josh Frank 1:01:17

Start a lawn mowing business, and like, text me when you're on the way so that I can get the kids like, step out of the lawn. Like let me know there's software out there. If you took a picture of like, this is what your shitty lawn looked like before. This is what it looks like. Now, like all these little things, I would also just pay you a monthly fee. Like you don't even have to like Oh, you missed a time because it rained like I don't care it's just coming out of my account like debit it. Like just let's just move on with our lives right? There's always opportunities when like right now my lawn gets caught like I don't even know when I get like a paper invoice. I have to write a check and like find a stamp. It's like, what is this so crazy. There's tons of opportunity out there and it's not it's not always a shark tank idea. Yeah.

Curt Storring 1:01:53

Well, Josh, this has been so much fun. I have loved getting to know you over this medium and where can people find you? Your business maybe like it just give us where anyone who wants to learn more can go

Josh Frank 1:02:05

Yeah, honestly, the best place is just Twitter. So I'm just at Josh Frank on Twitter. That's the easiest thing again my businesses for like seven and eight figure ecommerce brands. That's that test triggers calm but really just you know, Twitter is where I'm mostly at and you can find anything you need there.

Curt Storring 1:02:23

Sweet. Okay, man. Well, thank you so much for jumping on with me. And that's been a pleasure. Yeah, thanks, man.

That's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. It means the world to find out more about everything that we talked about in the episode today, including shownotes resources and links to subscribe leave review work with us go to DAD.WORK/POD. That's D A D. W O R K/ PO D type that into your browser just like a normal URL, DAD.WORK/POD. To find everything there. You need to become a better man, a better partner and a better father. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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