Unknown Speaker 0:00

If you are the foundation of your family, you are the firm footing. They build their lives on. You carry a glorious burden and you never dream of laying it down. You carry it with joy and gratitude. You show up, even when you don't feel like it. You lead, serve, love and protect. You are a father. This is the dead word podcast where men are forged into elite husbands and fathers by learning what it takes to become harder to kill, easier to love and equipped to lead. Get ready to start building the only legacy that truly matters. Your family

Curt Storring 0:59

welcome to the downward podcast. This is your host Curt Storring. And guys, I am very excited to introduce you to my guest, Ken curry. I first heard Ken on my friend wills podcast the renaissance of men, which I highly recommend listening to. And I got Ken on because a number of you guys have been asking for mature men who have been there before who have successfully raised adult children can just became a grandfather and I love what he had to say on wills podcast. I had a chat with him a couple of weeks ago, and very, very excited to get into this conversation. He blew out my expectations completely. So that's very exciting for me it's very exciting for you. I think you guys are gonna get a ton out of this. We go deep today, talking about Ken's new journey as a grandfather and what it's like seeing his son, become a father, breaking generational chains in your family. Some of the best parenting advice I've ever received, how to become internally referenced, as opposed to externally referenced, which we sometimes hear called being a nice guy, how to defeat shame. The five questions every man needs to ask himself the four step framework for fatherhood, the importance of building your own personal Mount Rushmore and the 10% autonomy rule that leads to parenting teenagers successfully. Ken curry is a father, husband, grandfather, mentor, friend, bowhunter, lover of the outdoors and also a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. His practice specialty is manhood, masculinity and relationships, and is continually exploring new avenues of strength, vitality and purpose for himself and the men he works with. Ken works from the premise that masculinity is good that each man brings significance into our world, and that men have been designed to move with freedom, presence and strength. Along with individual and relationship counseling can provide groups for men to build personal integrity and strength. So men will influence their world with intent, and passion. That's a heck of an intro and man, he does not disappoint at all, you can find Ken at his website, solid man.com. You can also email him Ken at solid man.com He said he'd love to hear from you guys. And you can find his books on Amazon search for kin curry as an author, and you will find everything there. So if you want to learn more about this episode, some of the things we referenced those links can go to Dad.Work slash podcast. As always, you can also get our free elite dad habits stack at Dad.Work slash habits. This is the habit stack I've spent the last 10 years perfecting, and man it just helps me show up every single day even when I don't feel like it. I do these things I show up better than I would have otherwise. And there are simple things that you can do on a daily and weekly basis to have you leveling up. So get that if you'd like to if you liked this podcast, leave a review all these sort of things. You know the drill. Let's get into this conversation with Ken. Correct. Here we go. All right, gentlemen, thank you. And welcome back for another episode of The dad rock Podcast. I'm here today with Ken curry. And I heard you on my friend wills podcast, and I knew I had to have you on and he suggested I have you on as well actually. So I'm very excited to have you here, Ken because well for a number of reasons but let me just say that I have been asked by a lot of guys to get mature successful men on the podcast so that we can hear from men who have been there before because a lot of guys are like me they're in the journey right now themselves. And they haven't actually completed this step of their journey. So with all that being said a little bit of a lengthy intro thank you sir for being here. And and welcome.

Ken Curry 4:18

Now so you're saying you're asking the this part of the journey? What part of the journey are you saying?

Curt Storring 4:26

Well, the the one where you have been so successful through your life can you know the one I think the one that gives you great hair as well if I can just say that.

Ken Curry 4:34

Okay, so yeah, so this Oh, my gosh, the journey it's never over. And we're always on it. It's such a such a cool thing. Definitely. So I'm 61 years old. I've been at this for quite a while at this. This would be working with men trying to help. And actually it's been my story of my own personal growth, my own discovery of what a man is Have what a father is masculinity, all that it's all overcoming so many of my own problems and issues and my own family and, and growing up as a man, and what our culture does to men, and everything. So it's just been my own personal journey has been a really strong part of now, what I'm able to impart to other men. And so I've been at it for a long time, obviously, my entire life trying to figure out who the heck I am, and what is a man? And how do we actually operate and be a father and love people and be strong and all that. So it's been a one heck of a journey for me, for sure.

Curt Storring 5:39

That's fantastic. Yeah, the question of what is, what is it to be a man, I think we're gonna have to come back to because I wanted to start off actually asking you about what I think is a pretty new development for you, which is being a grandfather. How long have you been a grandfather now?

Ken Curry 5:53

Also, my, my grandson, he just had his second birthday. Last week. So he's, and so we had a big, big party of harvest party, we went to the corn maze and all kinds of stuff. So He's two years old. And it's one heck of a fun thing. I just love this. And my wife and I actually have set aside time in our week for in our schedules to be able to watch him on Mondays and Fridays. And so it is it is, so it's kind of a it's a Yeah, it's definitely a blessing. So we've been able to watch him and since he was a tiny, tiny little baby, and now he's just, he's a little boy and running all over the place. And, and we have our adventures all the time. And it's just, it's a lot of fun. I just find it is one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done being a granddad Wow.

Curt Storring 6:46

Man, what is it like to see your own child? Become? Is this your sons? Yeah, yeah. And what does it like to see your son become a father? What does that look like as a dad yourself?

Ken Curry 6:56

So this, everything about it is just pride, just kind of, it's just everything is this really awesome. But one of the things that I talked to men about that one of the questions is what exists in this world? Because you exist. And I think that's a really profound question for a young guy to ask, because then starting to develop your vision for when you're 90 years old, and you look back, you can ask, you can answer that question. And you can go, I know it exists, because I exist. And so when you ask that question about my son, you know, because I did the same thing with him when he was a little baby, changing his diapers, feeding them, taking care of him, teaching him how to walk, and all the stuff you do with your kids. And so it's just I think that's one of the most profound things as a father, being able to understand that these people, this group of people did not exist, except for me. And I helped create that. And I think it's such an honor, such a blessing to be able to do that. And so when I see my son building his family, I mean, he's building, he's building my family as well. And it's just, it's a, it's a really, I don't know, fulfilling, it's deep, it's significant, to just see that there's something that exists in the world that's continuing to grow. And be, because I had a really Part A big part of this. So that's, that's the thing, when I see my son, just building his life, and he's being a strong good man, and he's providing and protecting and building his really good relationship with his wife. It's, and it is, it's, it's fun fulfilling. It's pretty amazing.

Curt Storring 8:40

Man, that is so inspiring. And I'm not thinking about that yet myself. And at the same time hearing that, like, oh, I want to parent my sons in a way that I get there, where I've got that relationship where I can't have that relationship. So I'm curious, what is your what do you think your role right now is? Maybe as a grandfather, but more importantly, I think, for our listeners, like what is your role as a father now? Are you still leading your son anyway? Is it completely his responsibility to be in your life? Or do you have any say in that, like, what? Who are you now as this more mature sage grandfather figure in your children's lives?

Ken Curry 9:16

Yeah, this is really cool. It's a really good question. So my three kids, so I have a daughter, son, and a younger son, and they're all within four years, so 3633, not 3433. And so I have now it is a relationship where it's an adult relationship. And so kind of as you ask that question, the answer is yes, yes. Yes. It's all his responsibility, and it's my other kids responsibility. But the coolest thing about this whole thing is because my wife and I have done a really good job of, I just think we've done a good job of parenting. Our kids, we have our kids love us, we're close together, we spend time together. We do things and they're all They're all off doing their lives and making things happen. But I definitely have a role as as friend, as mentor as guide. I'm here if they ever have a problem. And we support them in all kinds of different ways. And so I think having an ongoing relationship with your adult children and having that the Yeah, you said sage, Sage mentor. Yeah, the, the sense that I have wisdom to be able to impart, and it's always fun. You know, whenever we go out for beer, whenever we go play golf, my son who has the my grandson, we always take a week off and go hunting. We were bow hunters, and we go elk hunting. So this year, in September, my son actually got an elk this year, which was awesome. And packing that thing out was, that was a lot of work. I bet it was a lot of meat. So, but that that week with him of just having deep conversations and and it's just, I tell you, yeah, it's, again, honor and a privilege to be able to have that kind of relationship for sure.

Curt Storring 11:13

Did you have a father like that growing up?

Ken Curry 11:15

Um, good question. No, yes, I think younger. When my dad when I was younger, so my parents divorced when I was just finishing high school. And I would say before that my dad was president and he did. But he wasn't he wasn't the type of guy who had life wisdom. I think he had his a lot of his own struggles. But like, he taught me about the outdoors and taught me about hunting and fishing and things like that, which I love. Those are really big parts of my life now. But as far as imparting wisdom, that was not my dad.

Curt Storring 11:57

I'm curious, then, like how you haven't done? What sounds like an excellent job parenting? How did you parent? And how did you become the man who could parent without exactly the template? Because I think that's what so many of us struggle with right

Ken Curry 12:09

now. That's such a good question. So one of the concepts that I really love, when I work with men is the whole idea of breaking the chain. And so many of us, we look back, it's so generational. You go great grandfather, grandfather, my dad myself, now my son and my grandson, we've got the generations, right. And, and it's, it's, it's really important to be able to look at it and go, here's what my dad gave me. Here's what my grandfather gave him. And even my great grandfather gave him. And it's like, I don't want their being able to look at it and go, This is what I like. And this is what I don't like. And when I say break the chain, oftentimes there are generational sins or generational patterns, you know, alcoholism, sexual affairs. Even even success is sometimes a genetic generational pattern, right? Where, you know, financial success, kind of builds and becomes more financial success, you know, in a generation. And so being able to look at what did my family give me? What are my grandfather, give my Dad, what did my dad give me? What did he not give me? And so being able to look at it and go, I don't want to give my kids this. My dad cursed me with thinking that I was stupid. And I think it was because he felt stupid at times. And so it took me a long time and part of my journey, learning that I'm not stupid. You know, here, right here, it was interesting how to maths. I had a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, a postgraduate certificate, and marriage and family therapy. You know, I'm talking plenty of education. And I still thought something inside of me was stupid. And it was because of how my dad talked to me when I was a kid. And so that was something I'm not going to give that to my kids. And so I broke free from that. I now, honestly believe I have a good mind. I'm not the smartest guy in the room. But the thing is, I have a good mind. I'm not stupid. It was that's been part of my journey. But that's not what I was going to give my kids. And I want it to give my kids something totally different. There's a number of other things that the patterns that my family of origin had, that I broke free from, obviously, my parents divorce. And so that was something as a young man, young married, man, I'm like, I am not doing that. So I remember going to marriage conferences and studying books and all kinds of stuff where I'm not going to do this. I'm going to have a good marriage. Glad to say we've we've had our 38th anniversary with my wife. And so that was something that I said, I'm not going to do that to my kids. My dad had affairs. I'm not going to do that to my kids. I'm going to learn how what I I need to do to have a strong sense of self, where I'm going to be the man that my kids need to be. So breaking free from those generational patterns is a really powerful thing. And when you're able to look at it and go, I broke free from it. And now it's not it's not even remotely part of my kids lives. And so it's like, I'm looking at it going I was the pivot point where this just didn't even happen. Yeah,

Curt Storring 15:25

and you I can only imagine looking yourself in the mirror these days going, like, Yeah, I did that and and not in like a gloating or boastful sense. But this level of self respect to that I can only imagine must be present. Does that enter into the fold in terms of who you see yourself as and just the way you carry yourself?

Ken Curry 15:44

Gosh, that's so interesting. They say that because I used to be, I used to have a really difficult time looking at myself in the mirror. Because I didn't necessarily know who I was. And I didn't know what I was about. I didn't know my purpose. I didn't know my identity. I didn't know my capabilities and all this. And so let's just talk about that it has been something that's different. And it's fun, fun, because then I'll find myself smirking at myself in the mirror. You know, because we know that guy in the mirror, I know what's up, man. And we're able to go, done a really good job. I'm only 61, I got tons of years left. And it's all gravy. Because if I died today, I'm happy. I've done great, this has been a great life. And so being able to think about it, I have plenty of time left. And it's such a blessing and honor and gratitude to be able to have this extra time. Because it's going to be great to be able to see my grandson have a have a kid someday, you know. And anyway, that's what I anticipate. So yeah, I'm pretty happy where I am.

Curt Storring 16:58

That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm also pardon me, honestly, still inspired by these things. Because it's, um, it sounds different than a lot of men. Because there's a lot of, you know, as you approach retirement age in, at least in the West, you get a lot of guys who lose the sense of themselves, whether that's because they've been so into their jobs or their careers. Right, right, whatever the employment and that's where the identity comes into. And I want to get there, I think but my first question is, how did you happen to have the wherewithal to break the chain in the first place? Because a lot of guys don't even get there. Without maybe listening to podcasts like this going on? I didn't even know I could do that. So what was it about your journey that you were able to see your own life as part of this larger chain? And then maybe we can get into what sort of work you ended up doing?

Ken Curry 17:47

Gosh, that that is? A? That's a great question. Because I don't think that I am so profoundly intelligent, that I, I know this to be true that I think it was more of a gift, it was more something that was bestowed to me the understanding that, hey, you can do this differently. You don't have to, you don't have to do the same thing. I don't know, maybe I got that from somebody, somebody, it was a gift somehow as a gift to understand that what's gone on in my family of origin and all my generations in the past, I don't have to, I don't have to do the same thing. Right. And so it was a commitment, I'm going to have the best marriage that I can, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it's really good. I'm not going to get a divorce. And so that was one thing, obviously. But just to have the wherewithal to think that I had the capability to make changes and to break chains, and to be able to, to make sure that my family from this point on are going to have a different a different platform upon which to live. And to seek life. I don't think I figured it out. I think somehow it was given to me. And I did it and then I followed through with it.

Curt Storring 19:03

And that's the important part because I was thinking about this myself going like, Why did I turn out this way, when a lot of people with my so called story would have gone off the rails and I can't help but have the same answer. So I'm actually very encouraged by hearing. Because it's also then what you do with that gift it so actually I would love to hear what those things were because I know like your work is about becoming a solid man, being self referenced. And all of this stuff, I assume is what you had to do to get to where you are today and change those stories. Is there a way that we can sort of walk through your journey, in a sense that might help them in listening?

Ken Curry 19:39

Such a good question. So it's been a long journey, trying to figure out who I am trying to overcome shame. The whole the idea that you're talking about the you set you call it self reference, I'll call it internally referenced. That's that's the goal that I have for every guy that works with With me to become more internally referenced, because my, the majority of my life was externally referenced, and most men out there we live externally referenced, we live according to what would please others? Or what would make other people happy with me? Or what is the expectation of everybody else, whether it's my family of origin, whether it's my culture, whether it's my workplace, whether it's my wife, it's what does she expect me to do? And that's kind of what our culture has done, is made it to where men have to refer to everybody else, okay, what's right, or what's good, or how does a man operate or whatever. And it's like, and what it's done is it's just created a, a, just a massive amounts of these nice passive guys, who are just trying to make everybody happy, and to appease. And so that is no way to live. And so the the movement of moving from an external frame of reference to an internal frame of reference, what that means is, now I'm my internally, who am I, my identity, my desires, my, all the resources that I have within, because I have my heart, I have my spirit, I have my, my intuition, I have my instinctive pneus, I have my body, I have my neuro neurobiology, I have my mind, I have my memory, I have my humor, there's all this stuff within me, all my emotions, all this stuff within me, that is there to be able to guide me in life. And if I'm internally reference, I'm listening to everything within me, I have my character, I have my values, all those things that guide me into what's right, or what I want to do. And that is a completely different way to live. So like I said, my life has been pretty much externally referenced. But there has been a journey of learning a different way to live. And so as I learned, and I did a lot of reading a lot of observing a lot of watching what's going on out there, and being able to watch guys with confidence. And I'm going, they don't really care what everybody else thinks, you know, what is that? It was I'm like, That is strange to me. But then I looked at one of the one of the guys, I have a good friend John to super confident man, he's been caught I was in his wedding. Year in eighth 1984 think, no, they got married a year before we did. And so um, but John's been this guy who's just confident, and he just knows who he is. And he loves what he does. And he's passionate. Anyway. So he was one guy in my life at one point in time, I got laid off from this job. And, and we had, we went out to eat for lunch. And he just asked me, Ken, what do you want? What do you want in your life? Because he knew the answer for himself. And this was the perfect place for me, because I was like, I don't know what I want. Because I don't know what I want. Because I was so externally referenced. I know what everybody else expects, what everybody else wants, but I don't have a clue what I want. And so this is one of the things that with guys being able to, I call it exercising your want muscle, and your want muscle is like the size of a peanut. Imagine your bicep being a peanut, right? And because you have never exercised your want muscle, you don't even know what you want. And so that was like a massive part of my journey, just to start to ask, What do I want? What would make me happy? What is my life all about? What am I passionate about? And that was really opening the door to starting to discover my internal frame of reference. And it really has a big part. Like I said, my identity. And I had mentioned the whole idea of defeating shame in your life. Shame is that thing in your life, that voice in your life that says, You're not good enough? Or you don't measure up? Something's wrong with you. Something's defective. And most of us as men, we have that sense that something's not right. And it's not true. There's nothing wrong with us. The joke I say is the only thing wrong with you is that you think that something's wrong with you.

And it's like, nothing's wrong, we're in perfectly. No, it can't say perfect. We can't say perfect. We're in good working order. Right? We're not perfect. We have our deficiencies, but we're in good working order and all of your internal resources that you have work really well. And if you trust yourself and trust your resources, you're going to do just fine. And you're going to be able to find out who you really are and what you really want in life. And so for me in my journey, being able to find out who I really was that I'm not stupid, I have a good mind that I am a powerful man. But my power is good. And my power is for my family and for others. My idea of power was a massive part of my life as well, because I'm a big guy, I'm 642 150 pounds always been a really big person. And one of the things in my life is I always thought that my power, I always I didn't like being a strong individual. Because there's something about my power that I believed was just to hurt or destroy or to break things. And so like, once I started realizing no power is a really good thing. And it's not a power over people are to break or destroy, but my power is for other people. And that was a massive shift in my life as well. So there's just all these little things, what do I want? Who am I, that really important questions that I had in my life that I began to answer? This part of one of the things my, the five, eight questions every man needs to answer. First one is where does life come from? That's a really big one. Because usually we think, you know, you hear about the golden haired goddess, the woman, that life comes from your woman, it's like, no, no, she is not God. But most of us getting caught up in that where we think, Oh, my gosh, this is she's on a pedestal and all this. So that's a really big one big question. And oftentimes are, are the things that we're addicted to, are things that we think that's where life comes from. And learning No, that is not where life comes from, are not things, all those things are just gifts from the gift giver, who is the true source of life, to me, that's God, Jesus. That's who the real true source of life is. And God is the gift giver of so many different things. And it's when those things become our source, then that's when things become array. And so that, so that's a big first question. The second question, of course, is, who am I? Third question, what do I want? Or what do I need? What do I want? And then the fifth question is, Where am I going? And that really has to do with our purpose. And that kind of looping back to what I was saying earlier, is the whole thing of having a vision for your life. Where do you want your life to go, you know, as a young man in your 30s, being able to think six years ahead of time. You know, when I'm done with this, what would make me just look back and just tear up and just welled up with pride, that I'm just happy with the things that I produced and created and the things how I made an impact in the world of people, or whatever it was. That's the That's such a huge question that most guys don't even think our heads are down. We're trying to make a living or trying to make a paycheck and month to month trying to figure this out today. But that's a really strong question. But you really shouldn't ask us that question till you get the other ones answered. So it's really important to get the other ones answered for sure. You know, where does life come from? Who am I? What do I need? What do I want? And where am I going?

Curt Storring 28:14

Okay, so those are the questions that every man needs to ask himself. And that makes so much sense. And then, like, what is the practice here? Because if you ask yourself these questions, you're like, Oh, I've never answered these before. Do you just write them down? And that does something to you? Or is there like a practice that goes along with this? Because I want to figure out what the what the question answering does in practice, but then I want to figure out like, Okay, I've got these questions answered. But I'm still terrified to be seen. And I still getting it wrong of being imperfect of doing things for myself, because people aren't gonna like me anymore. So first of all, like, where do you answer the questions? And then how do you believe this, but see

Ken Curry 28:52

that what you just said, I'm terrified of being seen? Or what are people going to like me? And then that goes back to the question. I was saying, like, for my friend, John, he doesn't didn't care about what other people thought, because he was a confident man, I'm confident that I'm okay with who I am. And that's a really powerful part of the whole thing of the identity, where it's internally referenced, internally validated, I know who I am. And so if you don't like me, that's more about you than it is about me. You know, and so, but that didn't, what was the question you just asked?

Curt Storring 29:27

Basically, how do you get there? Because it's one thing to be like, Oh, I've answered these questions, I've journaled on them, or however you answer them. I think it's another question to be like, Oh, now I believe it. Because like, yeah, like practice or something, right. Like, how do you? How do you start to believe the answers to these questions?

Ken Curry 29:44

Yeah, see, that's a big part of the whole thing. Like, gosh, I don't know who said it, but they said, the longest journey in your life is the 18 inches between your head and your heart. And so what that means is I know it. I No, I'm a good man. I know I have a good heart. I know. But do I believe it. And that movement is huge. And that's what I'm saying. It took me a long time. I know I'm not stupid. But I still believed I was stupid. And not until I broke free and from the belief that was stupid was able to actually be able to be free. Right to be myself, but it's a long journey. And so these questions are not just answered here. These are questions that you will continue to process and answer forever. And so especially like, think about the whole idea of where does life come from? You know, and if I, let's say, I'm stuck with some addiction. What's a good addiction? Well, a lot of guys struggle with porn, right? And so usually porn is this addiction to that woman, that beautiful naked woman is going to provide something for me and validate something inside of my soul, she's going to make me feel better about myself somehow, right? And because I don't feel good inside, because shame is still exists in my life. And that she's actually providing that so she becomes a goddess, she becomes the God that provides life for me. And if you think about it, the way the cycle goes with porn is, let's say, I'll serve for a little bit. And during that time, man, everything is good. I don't feel horrible, I feel good. I feel validated. But as soon as I masturbate and ejaculated, boom, I'm exactly back to where it was before. Where shame, it just washes back over you. And it feels like shit again. And so that whole thing of you find out this porn thing is just a counterfeit. It's an idol. It's not real. This is not the source of life. But the problem is, I've been living in believing that this is the source, this is going to give me something. For most guys, when we learn that first thing we were 13 or 14 years old, or whatever, we weren't thinking about source of life and where life comes from. And this is a counterfeit. But this is what we grew up with. And we thought, oh my gosh, this provides something so deep for me. But it's not life. And we realize, and you start to go, now that obviously, it's not life, because it's actually destroying my life. It's diminishing my power, it's diminishing my relationship with my wife, it's diminishing our sexual energy. It's it everything is just wrong about it. So that's that whole thing of, of identifying, where am I trying to get life from? That's not the true source of life. Right. And it could be anything, it could be gambling, it could, like I said, alcohol or any other drug or anything like that. It could be workaholism, or accomplishments, or winning, or it could be a million different things. All those things are counterfeits. But they're all the gifts. They're all gifts from the gift giver. But do I do I seek the gift giver? Or am I seeking the gift. And that's a really profound thing. So think about that, that is not just something, think about how guys process overcoming a, an addiction. It's like it takes man it takes years, or it takes it's a it's not a small thing to break free from it. But you have to identify it as a counterfeit. This is not something that is a powerful part of my life. It's something I want to break free from, it's something new, I want to be set free from the bondage that I'm in with that thing. Whatever it is. And so the whole process of learning is is identifying and, and observing, where in my life, am I diverted to something where I think life comes from? That really, that's not the thing. And like I said, it could be a million different things, money, security, my guns, my six pack abs, you know, my big pickup truck, you know, whatever. It's a million different things. And I have to say that first one, there's just a process of observing, paying attention, identifying my counterfeits and then start to to seek the true source of life. So does that help with what you're talking about with the idea? Yeah,

Curt Storring 34:24

for sure. It's just like, there seems to be so much in each of these. And I think that's maybe the reframe that guys need is that it's not going to be overnight. No. And for me, this is a message of hope. And that's why I share anything that I share because I felt hopeless, and like I was a complete loser, and then I'd be better off dead. And I got through it, you know, by God's grace alone, I think, and I'm able to share now so that guys who are in that space of being externally referenced or feeling terrible, can be like, Look, at least I've got one more day of trying because I know there's light at the end of the tunnel. And so when I'm talking about like how do the work. It's just for the guys who are like they need something now. So as you said, noticing, writing these questions down and just start looking at their life and identifying where they're looking at idols, for example, rather than than the true source. And then do you just simply after that you start like getting into it. For me, I think it's one of those things that you just can't unsee like, once you start down this path, it's very hard, in my estimation, to get completely distracted and forget about it. But is there anything else in terms of like the doing of it do? Like your you work with clients? Presumably, you have men's groups? I think. So is that an important part? Or guys just write this down? Where else can they go to do this work in their own lives?

Ken Curry 35:40

Of course, like, Yeah, I'm just one guy, I own I have a busy client load, I have three groups that I have with guys online, and guys to work through the material. The Gosh, for anybody. So here's the thing I did this, by myself, not by myself is working through a lot of reading a lot of mentors, a lot of guys that were with me a lot of friends and working through stuff. And so by that's not answering your question, though. Because I have done

Curt Storring 36:17

I take a community and my experience, like I did a lot myself, and I only got like, when I look back at it, go like, Oh, I was so good at doing the work, quote, unquote. And I look back and it was like, it wasn't until I got into a men's group and had other men reflect back to me who I was showing up as that everything changed. And that was like 80% of the work was that the experience you had as well as?

Ken Curry 36:38

Yeah, I think the whole men's groups are phenomenal. And men, the whole idea of community, it doesn't have to be a men's group. But if you have men in your life what am I favorite ideas. It was a one of the managers of the Colorado Rockies Clint hurdle. He his idea was the concept that he said is every man needs a Mount Rushmore. And the Mount Rushmore are four solid, strong men in your life. Who if you were to say, Who are my four guys, you'd be able to go, Bob, Joe, Bill, and Jimmy, or whatever, right? And be able to know that I got men in my life who are there to support me, I support them. We do fun things together. We talk about real life, we talk about this stuff, we read books about masculinity, whatever it is, it's like if you can build in your life, a Mount Rushmore, you're going to be doing really well. It's fun, because in my groups, I'll have guys going through groups and, and at by the time they're done with group, it's like those guys are now their Mount Rushmore guys, and it's on when they graduate and move on. I know those guys are going to be hanging out together because they know the language, they know what's up, they know how to support, they know how to talk to each other about it. But most guys, we don't talk about our stuff. We'll talk about baseball game, we will talk about the weather, we will talk maybe talk about hunting or your favorite, you know, rifle that you got or whatever, maybe we'll go golfing, but you don't talk about how hard it is to be married. Or you won't talk about your addictions. Or you want to talk about the things that you have really been your strong points of shame in your life, or whatever it is all the things. And so definitely we're on to something as far as being able to work through building a strong sense of self and answering those questions. Having other guys with you who are able to talk about those questions as well. It's huge. It's that's a really big part of moving forward.

Curt Storring 38:43

Yeah, and I would recommend for any guy listening, get in touch with me or Ken or literally anyone else in this space to just figure out if there's something local to you, or even online has been very impactful for me. We're offering a bunch of stuff as well. So I just like being in brotherhood. I think like dads need brothers not bros. I think men need brothers not bros like you were saying you got to be able to talk to him. And that's one of the things that you can get by going through a program like this, or whatever you offer. Whatever I offer. It's like there's facilitated groups, we show you how you can interact and within a couple of weeks, I always get guys going, Oh, I didn't even know I needed this. This is amazing. And it's like this freedom to open up and go I'm not alone in this. I'm not alone in my shame, for example. And now I'm having to see who I really am showing up as because the guys are telling me and mirroring back who I am and they're often more accurate than I give myself credit for because I'm not really being honest with myself. So that's part of why I think this stuff works so much. And as you're talking about all this the next thing that came to mind is like okay, awesome, you guys got to do this work, become more aware of what's going on like to ask those questions to yourself, like Ken said, but as a dad, I'm also it's like this double edged sword. I'm looking back to my father. I'm looking at myself and I'm looking at my Sons. Yeah. Is there something? Do you want to maybe just talk a little bit about how to ensure that? I don't want to use in short, because you can't ensure but how do you encourage your sons or your daughters to also be internally referenced? When we have so much influence over our kids as the external reference? What's that flip like as parents?

Ken Curry 40:19

Yeah, I think the the thing is, like we all fear that our kids would be so externally referenced that they've given to peer pressure, or they would do all this stuff, or they wouldn't be able to say no, or they wouldn't have boundaries, and they wouldn't have that internal frame. And what you're asking is, I believe this is actually next to protecting and providing, protecting, and just make sure your family safe, providing make sure they have a roof over their head. There's more to providing, there's a big thing that's big about providing but those two things is kind of hierarchy of need thing. I think the next thing, the most important thing that a father provides Is that healthy identity. And it's that being able to once you start learning about yourself building an internal frame of reference. Now, you can actually teach your kids how to do this. Because I think this is so powerful, because every one of us wants our kids, when they're done. And they're 18 years old, and they go off to college or work or whatever the military who knows where they go, that you want, your hope is that my kid is going to be confident and know who he is, and know what his values are, and know what his character is. And nobody's going to say anything, nobody's going to shake him or crumble him at all. That's our goal is to have a internally reference solid kid when he goes out whether it's he or she. And this has been fun watching my kids, just go take care of business. And it's fun, it it's actually fun. It is, gosh, what do I keep using that word, because it is fun. It's just cool to see your kids succeed and be strong people and just be amazing individuals. And so that that whole idea of how do I teach my kid to have an internal frame of reference and being able to trust their own intuitive? Hey, this is not right. Or I don't know if I like this situation, or whatever. The other part of this is with their identity. How many kids do you get

Curt Storring 42:26

three with one more on the way?

Ken Curry 42:27

Okay, so you get three and your your fourth one's going to be coming out. And you know this as well as I do that they pop out of the womb with a completely different character than the other one. Oh, yeah. Right. It's the weirdest thing. It's the song. What is it Psalm 139, I think where you're created in your mother's womb, or whatever, you know, and God just

Curt Storring 42:48

planted, wonderfully made and knitted in the womb, you knit it,

Ken Curry 42:51

yeah, it's, it's crazy how it's like that kid was is that kid in the womb. And they come out with their different personalities and all this stuff. And so the father's work, is to be able to go, Who is this kid, because it's not our it's not our work to create that we've already done the creation. When we planted the sperm, man, that was a fun time. That's a good time, right? But the whole thing of now they're coming out. And our work is not to create them. And to create who they are, are now our work is to identify and observe who they are. And then set them free to fully be who they are. That's to give them their idea. Oh, I see who you are. You know, like my daughter, man, my daughter from the very beginning, she was a people person. And the best way to discipline her. It was so easy, so easy. It was this. You got two minutes in your bedroom. Man, how's the most agonizing thing to be separated from from us? It was the best discipline ever. And she was she would always be a good kid because she didn't want to be separated, right? Because that's good discipline is something that something that really means like that, right? But that was her and she's a people person. And she's caring, and she's nurturing. And every, that's just who she is. And so my job as a dad is to be able to recognize this is who you are. This is how you're beautiful. This is how your glory is as you interact. My My daughter has this network of friends. She's always had this massive network of friends. It's just really cool to watch. Because that's who she is. And so my work was is to find out who she is and to set her free to be that person and to really be confident in who she is. Same thing with my boys as well. They're my two sons are totally different. They have totally different ideas about life and how to move in life. And so my job was to be able to see this as who you are, and to be able to help Help them to be who they are. Several makes sense.

Curt Storring 45:03

Oh, it makes so much sense. And it's kind of blowing my mind to be honest. Because I had read or I'd heard someone tell me that in Proverbs, you know, you've got to raise up the child in the way that he should go. But I heard that the original Hebrew was actually by his bent, which is to say, biases character, like you were just saying, and that way how you just explain it, honestly, like relieved me in a sense, because I have been even personally thinking, Okay, how do I ensure they've got this characteristic in this trade and make sure they're going to be successful here, rather than simply looking and observing, and helping them on the path that they're already destined to be on? That seems, first of all, a little bit less stressful, because I'm not trying to mold beat. But also, like, serves them so much better so that their reference point is themselves men is blowing my mind. I really appreciate the clear breakdown like that, because it's, it will this will like, this will change how I view them. I quite honestly. So I hope this is lining for the guys as well, because this is much different than what a lot of people talk about. And just like getting them even if you're raising good kids who are resilient. That's not a cookie cutter, if it's not about them. So I love the idea that you're you're focusing on them. Man, what else should I be doing parenting wise? Well, okay, so minor 972. So what else can you add on to the index, so

Ken Curry 46:27

the other, the other category with that, which is the same thing, I've got something else too, as well with that. But the same thing with setting them free. Most of us, like I said, most of us have wrestled with shame. This deep sense that something's wrong with me. I'm defective. Not good enough, right? That's a really, really powerful thing that I think each man is going through his journey to defeat shame in his life, to be able to recognize because that's a false narrative, a false narrative, you are not defective. You are okay, you aren't perfect. But you're not nothing's wrong with you write that whole thing, being able to let that finally sit in my belief system that I believe the true narrative that I'm okay. I'm not perfect, but I'm okay. I think that's a really powerful thing. That is a significant thing to teach our kids, and to be able to teach them, what is true about them the true narrative, that you're not a piece of shit, not that you would say that to your little kid. But once they're in high school, they start thinking that and they'll say this, you know, and you go, No, that is not true. So our voice as a father is a really powerful part of a father, being able to speak life into our children, to be able to teach them that they are okay that they are good enough that they had, and all the things that I was talking about that you notice about them, I see how nurturing you are, or I see how amazing how you build things, or I see how you love literature, just saying things about my three kids. And so it's like, I see this about you, and this is my work to be able to let you know that you are not broken, you are good to go. And you can trust yourself to be able to move through life. And all that. The other thing I was gonna say is the whole thing. There are just there are things as a father to be able to teach your kids like gratitude and humility, and to be able to say I was wrong. And things like that, that are just absolutely essential. I think gratitude is easily one of the most significant superpowers that a human being can have, when they gratitude is just amazing. And appreciation, and being able just to have gratitude and appreciation is just a huge thing. Humility, obviously being able to say, I'm not all that I'm not perfect. And when I make a mistake, I'm still okay, I just made a mistake that was more of feedback rather than failure. And I'm learning about that was a mistake. That's the difference between shame. Guilt is says, I made a mistake. Shame says I am a mistake. And so that whole thing of teaching a kid to make mistakes, having that as your family tradition, we make mistakes, and it's okay. You know, it's a big deal. It really is. And then the whole idea of saying I was wrong, I'll tell you what, this is one of the most powerful things that a father can give, especially teenagers. But if it's something you've been doing, since they were little, being able to own it, man, I shouldn't have said that. I should not have said that to you. Whatever it was, maybe I really shouldn't have yelled at you. Or I shouldn't have gotten mad at that when we were driving. I shouldn't have got mad at that guy who cut us off. I shouldn't have said that. I was wrong. I actually think in a relationship the three most powerful words or parenting even, I think the three most powerful words It's or not, I love you. It's I was wrong. The words I was wrong actually create so much more reconciliation than you would ever imagine. And when you say something offensive, when you do something wrong, it's a really powerful thing in your marriage. As a dad, when you make a mistake, we make mistakes. And being able to say, I was wrong, shouldn't done that. Really models to your kids something really profound. And on the day that your kid comes to you and says, Dad, I shouldn't have done that I was wrong. You, you're just gonna, you're gonna die this year, it's gonna be some inside of you going my kid is awesome. When they do that, because that he Do you know what I'm saying? As far as how I was wrong is the significant thing. What do you think?

Curt Storring 50:54

It's one oh, this is something that I have practiced a lot. And I always say I'm good at it. But I realized that it was way easier in relationship to just say, I'm sorry, when I screwed up. But like you said, it's so tied into shame, because for years, I could not say I'm sorry, because that would have meant I was wrong. And if I was wrong, I wasn't perfect. And if I was perfect, I was a piece of shit. And therefore nobody loved me. And I was going, that was exactly how it went, right? So it's a shame spiral. So I could admit that I was wrong, lest I be basically killing myself is what it felt like. So when I, as I was going through this, and I'd love to ask a couple of references in terms of where people can learn about this stuff. But men saying, I'm sorry, saying I was wrong. And I did this, just for everyone's clarification, I'm not perfect. Imagine that. I was impatient with my wife the other day. And I did not love her. Well, in sort of a first Corinthians 13 sort of way, if anyone gets that reference, wasn't patient, I was putting myself before others, I was not being kind. And I told her that and I asked her forgiveness. But then at the table, the next morning, I told the kids, I said, Look, I had to admit that I sinned the other day, and I wanted to let you guys know that it was wrong of me to do these things. And here's why. And sharing that. I think not only does it like, totally take anything out of the relationship with my wife and I, where it's like, oh, she's upsetting me. I'll take the blame, because I was wrong. And that's okay. But it also models to my kids, I hope, the fact that they can come to me rather than like I would have done as a kid, which is bottle it up. Don't tell anyone to just go oh, man, I get found out. I'm a goner. So anyway, all that being said, I'm a so like, 100% on board with this only, and maybe only because I've seen the opposite in my own life, how painful it is to not admit that. And the flip side of like, you're not like it's gonna be fine. Just say you are wrong. You don't have to be like it's not Alpha machismo. If you're never wrong, like it's just, it's stupid. It means that you're lying, because you are wrong a lot. So yeah, man, I'm really picking up what you're laying down here. And I really love this. And it's being said, in a way that is non academic, which I really appreciate. So yeah, please, if there's more to this continue, but definitely pick it up

Ken Curry 53:04

the only the only other piece to it, and I love how you say sorry, from your Canadian accent. It's the the whole idea of the No More Sorry, man is a really don't. So part of what I talk to guys about literally never say you're sorry, ever again. Just don't use those words. And so don't say I'm sorry, but do say I was wrong. When you say I was wrong, it actually has meat to it has substance to it, I'm sorry, is just kind of a brush off. It's kind of a, you know, I'm sorry. You know, and so it's like, just don't, don't ever say that again. But like you said, sit down with the kids. I was wrong. I sinned shouldn't have done that. That has substance and your kids now know what it means, oh, this is being modeled to me that I can actually say I was wrong, or I made a mistake. And that actually is a really, really significant thing. So this would be something if you look at this would be back to the what I was talking about breaking the chain, you know, of adding humility into my life and being able to say I was wrong, or I made a mistake. Most of us in our families of origins. We were like what you said, Man, I can't I can't admit to a mistake or I was wrong. Or I'd be crucified or whatever, right? Or the fear that I would be abandoned or something like that is in the mix. But being able to teach your kids that it's totally okay to say I was wrong, or I made a mistake. That's what our family does. We're good. We are good at making mistakes. Because every time we make a mistake, we learn something. And every time you learn something, we're better human beings because we're not probably not going to make that mistake again. Right. Yeah. And so, yeah, go ahead. No, please.

Curt Storring 54:58

No, please. No, you're kidding. I'm sorry. For, just to summarize, so I was writing this down here, it sounds like a father's role can be broken down into what we were just talking about, into raising a child, by the way that he is basically his bent. So encouraging him in himself number one,

Ken Curry 55:19

and set up and setting the setting them free, setting them free to be themselves in the fullness of who they are. Without the shame that exists, right.

Curt Storring 55:29

That was that was the second part is, is being the shame killing voice.

Ken Curry 55:33

Yes. Oh, yes, that's such a good way to say it.

Curt Storring 55:36

I like it. Because Because shame would be you know, I'm not good enough, whatever, I'm piece of shit. But if the voice that's combating that is the father's voice, because I talked to so many guys who are like, wait, I'm not talking like that to myself as my father's voice. But it's 99% of the time that negative it Oh, law, there's that I was stupid, right. And so the flip side of that is, can you imagine being the shame killing voice. So that's number two. And then the third one is modeling by being a good human being, which is being humble, which is showing compassion and all that kind of stuff. So that three pronged approach of raising them up in the way that they are basically programmed already to go, killing the shame and exposing them to good modeling. That's a very achievable path of fatherhood. For most guys that doesn't rely on this tactic and that strategy and all learning this and learning that it's like, if you can just be a good man, and support your kids and just observe who they should who they're going to be. Yeah, that's sounds like a really good model. Is there anything to add to that?

Ken Curry 56:32

There's a, there's a ton to add to it.

Curt Storring 56:35

All right. You want to add anything to that?

Ken Curry 56:38

Yes. So gosh, you really did a great job of making it really three really simple things. Because I think that's what I like, what you're doing is, you're making it to where like for yourself, you're going to take some pressure off, right? Because so often we're, we're given you know, you, you have all the pressure to be able to, to make to make this kid be a great human being, right. But you got to trust that you are already a great human being who you are. And your kids are already great human beings, even when they're even when they're being a little brats, our work. So maybe maybe this is the other other thing. Our work is to guide, and we guide through boundaries, and through what we're talking about mentoring, showing them. And so I've heard it put this way, a father stands in the way of foolishness. So if your child is moving in a foolish fashion, we just stand in the way and say, No, that's not what we do. That's not how we live life. And that that's and that is setting a boundary and saying no. And so when I'm saying standing in the way of foolishness, imagine a two year old, my grandson, you know, he's always doing stuff. He was I forget what he did. Oh, he, he crawled out our doggie door. From our dog, we had to put our dog down in just last January. But we still have the doggie door obviously in our house. And he crawls through it and and he goes out and he has like a almost a three foot drop. And the dog would just go out and book across the little pathway that there is he went out and he fell off the whole thing, right? Because he loves the doggie door he loves anyway, what am I saying standing in the way with foolishness would be no, you can't go out the doggie door. But I want to go out the doggie door. No, it's dangerous, right? And so being standing in the way of No, this is not something you can do. And so that would be what it is, it would be like with a 16 year old, you know, no, you can't go do this certain thing that because of whatever foolishness it was, or you're not doing your schoolwork, so therefore you can't do whatever it is. And so setting boundaries, having discipline, being influential that way, is a really powerful thing of helping guide your children for sure. Does that make sense?

Curt Storring 59:07

Yeah, totally. And that's a great cap to maybe make that a four piece guide there. Because boundaries are so important as one of the things that I've worked most on the most. Most of the guys who have talked to me and work with me are learning how to do this because they're coming from that nice guy externally. So boundaries are huge. And I'm curious as you brought up teenagers there, if we do this if you go through this sort of three four point formula, and you said influence as well. Does it become reasonably I don't know. I don't want to say easy obviously. But the the main story here today is that once they hit teenagers, they're going to rebel they're going to hate you and you just have to deal with and hope they don't kill themselves. Like that's not how I want to parent I don't think ever happened

Ken Curry 59:53

the last one is always true. I hope that they don't kill themselves. But, but I if you do Well, good job, youngsters, guiding them be open, the whole thing of modeling, modeling, I was wrong or mistakes, them being able to come to you, I made a mistake or I was wrong. Humility, gratitude, all those things that we're talking about. You're going to create good human beings. As far as you know, what happens normally is parents are unwilling to give their children freedom, or autonomy. Right. And so that's why there's this rebellion. It's always this rebellion, because this is what a teenager, it's in the, in the stage of life, it's autonomy. I need, I'm building autonomy in my life. So the way I as a marriage and family therapist, the way that I kind of frame it, is you have a zero to 100%, autonomy, and pretty much starting when they're 10. If you give 10% autonomy every year, so as a 10 year old, as a nine year old, you give a little bit of autonomy, but as a 10 year old, if you give 10% autonomy, okay, you get to choose this or do this or sure this weekend, you get to go do this. Sure, choose something. And as an 11 year old, you have 20%, and 12, year old 30%, as a 16 year old, you have 70% autonomy, where you can choose and do things that you want to do, I'm not going to tell you what to do yet, if you start and then obviously, by the time they're 20, they're 100%, autonomy, right? Where and that's what you want. Because another thing that we always see is kids that go off to college, and all of a sudden, they have all this autonomy, but they've never had any autonomy because their parents have, or is probably most especially the mother has been hovering helicopter. And some dads do that as well. But that's keeping them safe. But the dads, the dads entered mom's energy is to keep everybody safe. Dad's energy is to keep her make everybody confident and go out and conquer the world. That's dad's energy. And those two energies seem completely different. And they are they kind of opposed but they're not mutually exclusive. They work perfectly together. But a mother has to understand with the father's energy, now we're going to we're going to send this kid out, we're going to let them get a driver's license, or we're going to let them spend the night with their friends. Or we're going to let them you know, go to the grocery store by themselves and walk back or whatever, right? We're gonna actually let them and that's the thing and like you said, and we hope they don't kill themselves. Right, but we have to let risky behavior. Yeah, it's the but the thing is, this is life. But we have to, we have to face that possibility. But we have to let them choose and move and make and do what they want to do in increments. As they get older. As teenagers, you let them have a bigger chunk of autonomy. And you they know, they're going to earn their autonomy through trust. And when that happens, if you can trust your kid, and they know you're the the equation is with your with your teenager, is trust equals freedom. If I can trust you, and you tell me the truth, and I know that you're at where you are, you say you are, and all this others and I can trust every word you say, you get the kind of freedom. But if you start to lie to me, if you start to find stuff out, Freedom disappears. That's how this works. That's how you stand in the way of foolishness. Anyway, that's a totally another concept. But anyway, yeah,

Curt Storring 1:03:39

no, that's, that's, it's just it's one of those things that you know, my oldest is nine, he'll be 10 in a couple months. So I'm at that stage where we're getting there.

Ken Curry 1:03:47

What would it look like to start to give him a good taste of autonomy?

Curt Storring 1:03:51

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm thinking like, you know, he's already got a reasonable amount of autonomy. We're talking about like, knives and pocket knives and stuff like that. He's had that for a while he's allowed to do that kind of stuff. He's allowed to do his whittling in the back. He's got a fair bit, I think. And it's like, what is the next step then, while also giving him the consequences of poor decision making, presumably, with some support? Is there anything in that maybe the last time we talked about there, like when there is that consequence? It's not me coming down on him, necessarily. It's like, oh, there was a natural consequence there. And now it's your problem, because it's part of your freedom. Is that the way you look at it?

Ken Curry 1:04:32

Yes. I think natural consequences. Are you think about all the things that that you wrote, you really learned? natural consequences. Can't do that again. I mean, I think And so part of it is, but see, natural consequences are a result of a parent letting a child actually face a natural consequence, by doing something and facing that and that's, that's a pretty powerful thing. Um, to let your kids feel it. But if you're a helicopter, or if you're, you know, the hovering or bubble person or whatever, you know, you're not going to be able to let your kids actually ever face natural consequences. And natural consequences are a very profound learning mechanism in your child's life. And so part of it is I need to let my kid feel some pain. And that's a tough thing as a parent. But this is also an is another thing, we could talk for another hour on initiation, initiating my kids, and my sons is letting them face difficulty, because they face difficulty and guess what they find out, I can handle it. And that's the initiation process. And so that would be another thing of letting them face some kind of natural consequences or getting out there and doing something really hard. That could cause some pain or hurt. Yeah,

Curt Storring 1:05:52

yeah, yeah, I wrote a post a little while ago called let your kids fail, for this exact reason. And it's so hard to let our kids fail, because like, do you see them hurting? And then you want to jump in? Man, I feel like I'm gonna have to invite you back to the party, because there's so much and this hour has flown by. So I want to make I want to be respectful of your time here. So Ken, where can men find you who are listening who want to learn more who want to dive deeper with you?

Ken Curry 1:06:17

Okay, so my website is solid man.com. And I think on there, you can link up to find two, there's a place where you can send me a message and I'll reply to you. Or you can go to Ken at solid man.com or Ken curry lmft@gmail.com would be another way. Just and I'd love to interact with anybody emails. I like doing that. And then find resources that you could you could get or whatever, for sure. Yep, amazing.

Curt Storring 1:06:50

Okay, well, all of all of that, I will put in the show notes at Dad.Work slash podcast if you didn't catch it. So just head on over there. Ken, this has been like, personally very helpful. These are my favorite podcasts when I get these kids is actually just me, you know, becoming a better dad. And thankfully, you know, all the other guys are gonna listen to it and get that same value. So thank you very much for being open to this. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. And I'm gonna have to come back for a part two if you're open to it. So thank you. That'd

Ken Curry 1:07:14

be fun, Kurt, for sure. I'd appreciate it.

Curt Storring 1:07:18

Thank you again. Thank you for listening to the dad work podcast. That's it for this episode. But if you would like to stay in touch between weekly episodes, why don't you go over to Instagram and follow me there because I draw up a number of things throughout the week that are related to what we talked about on this podcast, but usually go a little bit deeper, provide some tips you can find me on Instagram at dad work dot Kurt. That's da d w o RK dot c u r t. And please, if you have been getting something out of this podcast, if it has touched you if it has improved your marriage, or parenting or your life, would you please leave a quick review on Apple or Spotify. leave a rating. If you have a few extra seconds, leave a quick review. That's the best way that we can get this work in the hands of more fathers. And I truly believe that we change the world, one father at a time, because each father that parents better that loves better raises children who do the same. And in just a couple of generations. I feel like we could be living in a world much better than the one we live in today. Your review will help along that path. And I thank you so much for being here to listen until next week. We'll see you then.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai