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This is a wide-ranging, honest, vulnerable conversation with my friend Heston. Heston is exploring podcasting and we agreed to get together for an episode, but it was such a great time that I’m sharing it here with you guys, too.

We talk about a ton of things, including how God has been at work in our lives, fatherhood, marriage, the culture at large, a couple conspiracy theories we’re fond of.

I alternatively laughed and bared my soul.

There’s no structure to speak of, and you’re basically a fly on the wall of me having a deep conversation.

Heston is a husband and father, and has been working with us inside of our coaching program, The Brotherhood, for the past 9 months. He’s radically transformed his life, and I’m grateful for him.

Curt + Heston Podcast

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[00:00:00] Curt: And like, just dude, like the, the tear ducts behind the eyes. And it was just like, man, great. Are you Lord is incredible. So I'm all sorts of things.

[00:00:10] Heston: one of my favorite things. I feel like happens is when you're, when you have this, like a heavy spirit and you're listening to some music and it just like starts to come out of you, you know, and you can't hold it back. And that was something that you and I actually had talked about, you know, probably two or three months ago.

[00:00:31] It was just like finding a place where I can just like go sit and like, just let it out of me, you know? And I didn't know. Until I was a Christian that you could have that, let it out of me, but because you are so overjoyed

[00:00:47] Curt: Hmm.

[00:00:48] Heston: and not have it just be a, let it out of you because you didn't when you were a child and it's still like pent up inside of you.

[00:00:56] And now it's like, I'm not choking back tears because I [00:01:00] want God to see like the, the peace and the. I want him to see that I acknowledge this life as a blessing and it's just like pouring out of me, you know, and so that's cool that That's cool that you have those moments too, because I feel like sometimes I'm schizophrenic,

[00:01:16] Curt: Well, well you may be, but,

[00:01:18] Heston: right, right.

[00:01:19] I mean, we haven't, I have avoided doctors specifically because I don't want to get vaxxed. And then also I don't want to be diagnosed as a schizophrenic, but I know I have those moments all the time. Like there's, there's an artist on, I guess, Spotify or Apple. It's like Celestial Aeon Project. And they do renditions of just like popular songs, but like orchestrally.

[00:01:40] And it's just like, dude, if you're in, if you're in some heavy headspace and you listen to some stuff like that, it just like. It's just amazing music, you know, the power of music and, and like what it can invoke in you, you know, and praise God that it can also be used to, I don't know, just to bask in the presence.

[00:01:58] You know, I feel like that's such [00:02:00] a vital part of being a Christian. I think that when you speak about, you know, be still and know that I am God. Does basking come easily to you, or do you think, do you see basking as a waste of time and you're like, I need to be doing something to advance the kingdom, not basking.

[00:02:18] Curt: Yes. Well, that's the funny thing, because when you read in Rev, or when I read in Revelation, I was like, you're just there infinitely worshiping God. Like. That's it. And it's not like that's it in an irreverent sense. It's just like, well, what else are you doing though? Like, are, are you not ruling with him?

[00:02:36] Are you not doing anything else? And they're just there forever worshiping forever. And you're like, Oh, dang. And the more that so I, I get into it. And the more I do this, you know, basking accidentally and the more I read scripture, the more I'm like, Oh, this is what I'm designed for. And I thought that was the stupidest thing for the longest time.

[00:02:56] Like, what do you mean? I'm meant to glorify God and enjoy him. Like, [00:03:00] what about me? What does he have for me? He said, well, no, actually that is what he has for you because it's the best thing for you. But yeah, the, the basking is not at all easy. And it feels stressful to be resting yet this is the first time and I mean, you've caught me obviously in this liminal space between two versions of myself.

[00:03:21] I feel like where this is the first time where rest has felt useful because my idea of rest before was, I just, you get to the weekend and then like, okay, at least I'm not working, but I'm kind of thinking about work and like, it just sucks. Therefore, I can't wait to go back to work. But the idea behind that as well was if you rest, you're weak.

[00:03:43] And that came from this identity, which was built on proving myself. And that's weird because I've proven myself to myself and to everyone else over and over and over and over and over, but it was like, Oh, if you rest, like, by the way, bro, you're starting from zero. [00:04:00] That's like, what? Like, okay. I just can't rest then.

[00:04:02] And it's not that I even like resting. I love working. Thank God. But it's this idea that if I take any break off who I am as being hardcore, hardworking, Able to do anything for any period of time. And you know, even saying what is the, what is the, the verse? I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

[00:04:24] I'm like, yeah, that means all things. Therefore I'll just like, keep going, but all things didn't include rest. So anyway, this like whole thing of work and moving forward seems to be a huge ego and identity piece for me, which I kind of knew, but God is making abundantly clear right now. He's like my. My my identity for you as a beloved son and adopted son, a citizen of heaven does not include sort of how hardcore you are, like, by the way, it's actually about, you know, what I say about you and who Jesus says you are and who you are in Christ [00:05:00] and just like the experiences, man.

[00:05:02] And here's, I'm just going to go on a tangent here, so stop me, ask questions, whatever you want. But what I noticed the other day, this mastermind I was at. Christian business owning fathers, right? Like a beautiful Venn diagram. But what makes me exceptional right now, I have a big audience and people come to me for being a good husband and father because I was horrible and praise God.

[00:05:24] He helped me get better. And so here I am accidentally not even realizing that my identity was really wrapped up in. Being that guy I walk into this room of 80 men who like already know most of what I know and suddenly I'm nothing I'm not exceptional. I have like no special business thing. That's mine They're just like what do you do?

[00:05:45] And I'm like, Kind of kind of like this stuff that we're doing right now except worse Like I don't know what to say to that because like I was a horrible husband father now I help guys not be that But the thing that made me feel exceptional which is a huge ego [00:06:00] defense mechanism against Like everything was taken away.

[00:06:02] And suddenly it was like, God was going, so, you know, the last two weeks I was trying to drag you through the mud a little bit to get you to realize who you are. Are you okay? Just being my son. are you okay just being that and then fearfully and wonderfully made as you, because the thing that I forgot about was like, dude, the thing that makes me, me is just the experiences that God's given me and the talents that he's given me.

[00:06:26] And it's okay that that's it. It's okay that I don't have to have any proof to myself or anything, anyone else. It's okay that I am just the accumulation of experiences and gifts and talents that God has given me. As his son, and that's it. And I had lost the process for the outcome. And we talk about that all the time.

[00:06:46] We talk about that crap all the time inside the brotherhood. Like enjoy the process, bro. Stop, stop looking for the, the end game. And I totally forgot. So it's been a crazy wild ride lately.

[00:06:57] Heston: Yeah, dude, it's that's funny that you say that because [00:07:00] it has been it has been interesting. I feel like the... It was really interesting when you were gone because that was the most any guy had ever spoken and during that call,

[00:07:10] Curt: Wow. I, I forgot. I need to ask someone about

[00:07:13] Heston: no, yeah, yeah. So, so you went to Colorado and it's Mondays. So Monday's call was just kind of I would say uncensored version of what we do because guys were just like sharing, sharing, sharing, dude, like, and it was beautiful, honestly, and I was trying to figure out why guys felt like that was the time to do it. And I think maybe there is a level of, you know. You, you don't want to be seen by, by you specifically, you know, like the, these like deep, like crude, right. Just like primordial shares

[00:07:57] and so we were talking about like stuff like that [00:08:00] on, on that call, you were gone and everybody was like, was chiming in. And so it was it was really nice to have guys other than, you know, me, I guess, talk about stuff. And like, like, like I say to you, like, I feel that you and I talk, you know, twice a month right now.

[00:08:16] And I feel like that's enough for me. And then I sit in on the calls and I listen because I want to, you know. Be able to lend my presence to another guy if they find that like supportive or like, you know, if someone is sharing and they feel like there's like, there's three people in the call and normally there's like 14 or 15, it's like, okay.

[00:08:36] Like nobody cares about my problems, right? Like I'm in a brotherhood and nobody cares. So that's why I like, I make every call because I want to sit and listen to every guy's life story basically. And so but yeah, I just, I thought it was super peculiar that it was just that Monday you were gone.

[00:08:51] People were just like going hard on the shares and like not holding back.

[00:08:55] Curt: Dude, that, that's

[00:08:56] Heston: awesome. Yeah, it was

[00:08:57] Curt: I'm actually, that's so unusual [00:09:00] actually, because the, I mean, I ran men's groups for a long time. The whole point was like, sometimes we do all open chairs for like three hours and we just be like, Hey dude, what's going on with you? And then we just dig in and dig in and dig in.

[00:09:09] And it's not the point here because like, there has to be an outcome that we're aiming for. And there has to be like a challenge as a so called coach. And it's like, why the heck, man, just, just share, like, I want to see the dirty stuff because then I can help. And if you're not willing to share that kind of stuff.

[00:09:22] So that is really interesting. Just thinking on the fly, like maybe there should be more of those, you know? But how do you get, how do you get the, the somewhat leadership so that it's not just like a free for all, but at the same time, what I've experienced is you just get a bunch of good men with good intentions in a room.

[00:09:36] You don't need to be led through a process. You don't need to be told anything just like, Hey bro, I see you and hear you. What's going on. And that's it. So anyway, I'm, I'm glad about that.

[00:09:45] Heston: Yeah, it was it was it was fun. It was interesting. I got my words mixed up and I said my sister's wife instead of my wife's sister. And I was like, I was like, you know what? I'm probably just gonna turn my phone off right [00:10:00] now and just like step away. And cause it was in one of those, like, you know, when you're on a tangent or something and you're just like, you're going and going and going and you know, where the thought is going, but then you like slip up, you know, verbally, my sister doesn't have a wife.

[00:10:12] She's. You know, cisgendered, we're calling it nowadays. So she's married to a a man right now who knows what will happen tomorrow. And they have, they have two kids, but the point being that no, it was cool because it was just like guys were able to just like say like what their lives were like, you know, and what they were struggling with and what they were dealing with.

[00:10:33] But no, I just thought, yeah, I just thought it was funny. But but yeah, we missed you though. It's nice because I love that you and you, you join these calls Mondays and Thursdays. And you always have like 20 minutes of like wisdom, and it's always something that I feel like I need to hear so that I can think about it.

[00:10:51] Because it's just, it's nice being around other men because for the longest time, all of the ideas I ever had came from my own mind. [00:11:00] And so being able to like be around other guys who are like generating like thoughts and, and sharing them and projecting them, it's like, okay, cool. Like I can download this thought and then ruminate it on it for like ruminate on it for a couple of days and like, and then gain like new insight and perspective into, you know, I'm trying to think of something that you said recently, because, you know, obviously we, we talk about really deep stuff and it's hard to like grab just one thing, but

[00:11:27] Curt: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's just that there's so many good things that I say that it's very hard to pick just one which I think is what you're trying to say naturally. But the like, I think that the macro point here is that like, this is the enemy operating in isolation. And when you are in isolation, like you said, you're only having your own thoughts and it's like a ricocheting around a tin can and it's getting worse and worse and the reverberations are going crazy and the echo and you're like, wow, I think I must be like the worst person in the world.

[00:11:52] And crazy. And. Everyone else is normal and suddenly you put yourself into a group of guys who are willing to share what's going on with them [00:12:00] Like oh i'm very normal Like I am so not unique and the interesting thing is okay. The isolation is horrible. It breeds all sorts of Misery and depression and separation from god and other people but Pardon me The other thing that does is when you're isolated like that I just completely lost where I was going with that.

[00:12:21] So there, there is something else that happens. And I'm sure that when I come up with it, this is just a cliffhanger for anybody who wants to keep listening. Speaking of mincing or mixing up your words, when you just forget the words, that is, you know, maybe just the most

[00:12:33] Heston: Still more forgivable than saying sister's wife.

[00:12:36] Curt: Well, obviously, but hey, I'm, I'm not schizophrenic, so I don't have that.

[00:12:41] Heston: Shut up. I

[00:12:43] Curt: Yeah, but anyway, isolation, bad other men good so that you can understand what's going on with you. I'll come back to that. I'm going to think about that and let me

[00:12:53] Heston: Yeah, no, think on that, but that is honestly such a poignant example of why going to church is[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Curt: Hmm.

[00:13:00] Heston: such a, I feel, I feel like a lot of people think that they can be. A Christian by themselves just on like a mountaintop. And I, and I think that, I think that that is not the way that God would ask us to go about living our life.

[00:13:17] Because I think community and brotherhood and communion, for example, like the, the, the, like community and communion, like all have the same what is it? What's there in, you know, grammar, whatever root word. Exactly. Yes. Something like that. You know, they all, they stem from the same word. And there's a reason why that is.

[00:13:37] And it's because being among other people allows other people to point out to you, like when you're falling into sin and like allows you to be called back into repentance, you know, I don't know if faster is the right word, but. You, you expect that, you know, of the community that you say that you are a part of, you know, if you all believe in the same God and you all believe and abide in the [00:14:00] word and the law, you, you go to a place together to worship and, you know, of course you can talk about all the denominations and whatever you want, but, you know, if the, the gospel message is the gospel message, it's the same, it should be the same for every denomination that Christ died for sinners, that none of us have ever done anything good.

[00:14:18] And it's only. Yeah. Yeah. His presence in our lives and like in an active relationship in repentance with him and like acknowledging what he did and Then going forth and sinning no more or doing your like doing your absolute best to because in John You know, it says that if like if a man like, you know I'm not good at memorizing scripture if a man, you know says he has no sin.

[00:14:42] The love of God is not in him, right? and so That that I think that If the love of God is in you, you have a heart for people and you want to pull them out of their sin when you see it happening. And so that's why being like around in a brotherhood, of course, for men, sisterhood for women, but [00:15:00] also going to a church where people pray over each other, sing songs.

[00:15:03] It, I think that it's channeling the presence of God into a room. Just like, it just like sucks the darkness out of you. Like, and it's, it's so interesting because I noticed that when I go to church. Especially the past like five or six months, my wife and I would like get into like really weird, petty arguments afterwards.

[00:15:24] And, and I didn't understand why that was happening. And I think that I was looking at service about like what God was doing for me. And I was in a very self like centered frame of mind. And it wasn't until I realized I was like, okay, like we fight. No, I won't say fight. We argue. In a petty way after service almost every time we go And it's because i'm thinking about myself as soon as I walk out the door instead of thinking about What christ has done for me And what like what I can now turn, [00:16:00] you know And do for my family

[00:16:02] Curt: Yeah.

[00:16:03] Heston: and, and the past couple of weeks we've been going, I've been like trying to, I won't say trying, I've been changing that just like, like actively being like, okay, we're leaving, I'm a good man, like, okay, we're leaving, I'm not going to fight about you know, we're going to clean the house today and, you know, taking a Sabbath, doing something like that, like, obviously that's been a topic of conversation.

[00:16:22] That's something we have to do because I always feel like I have to be on my feet doing something in the house. Yeah.

[00:16:29] Curt: Yeah, no, that's I cannot wait for us to implement that. But a couple things I'm curious if the after church thing is also like this afterglow where you're just like you're feeling so good and you're like man Everything's amazing. Why didn't I just remember christ? Like why didn't I just why don't I just always think about this and then you get out?

[00:16:47] And then like, you're a sinful man, your wife's like a sinful woman. I'm not saying like actually single, you're, you know, saints saved, sanctified, whatever. But you know what I mean? There is that fleshly part of us that comes together and you're [00:17:00] like, well, I just experienced this amazing time with God.

[00:17:02] Now, like you're telling me we got to clean the house and you're kind of being snippy about it. Like this sucks. I hate this. And then you're like, man, it was almost like you expected this beautiful high and I almost. Like I was very cognizant of this after coming back from Colorado because I was alone and I didn't want to be alone.

[00:17:19] I wanted my, I will take my family with me from here on out, assuming they don't close the borders again, which of course they're going to do. So I won't be doing that. Anyway, long story short,

[00:17:26] Heston: COVID happening again, by the way?

[00:17:28] Curt: it never happened in the first place.

[00:17:30] Heston: Right. Okay. Yeah. Are they, are they bringing back the the bullshit?

[00:17:34] Curt: I don't know, dude, that I, I just, I hear people going like, Oh, it's coming back. And I'm like, well, according to who and what, and so I haven't seen anything, but it was, you know, done on less last time. So of course, probably anyway, important. So let's make sure we touch on all the cancellation points during this conversation,

[00:17:51] Heston: course. Yes.

[00:17:51] Curt: But, but anyway, like coming back from Colorado, I was like, man. I've got like, I've got the game plan. It's going to be Sabbaths. We're going to celebrate like every biblical [00:18:00] holiday. It's going to be like amazing. I'm gonna have like a family team working on my business. Everything's gonna be perfect.

[00:18:05] And you get back and it's like, Oh, how am I going to do this? When like, I've got to be with the kids and there's four of them. There's my wife and she's overwhelmed. And then like, I'm not feeling great. And suddenly you're like, wow, mega buzzkill. But, because I've done this enough times and have felt like you felt, which is like, I don't want to do this.

[00:18:20] No, we're fighting. I was able to sort of see that and go, okay, at least like pump the brakes. Because like you said, this is where he's put me. He didn't put me in some like whitewash room and said like, go create out of this perfect calmness. He's like, do your best where you are. That's what we're supposed to do.

[00:18:35] So that's one thing that I've noticed as well, because I get the same thing. I'm like, man, church and all these friends and like fellowship on the music. Oh, I just feel so good. And then you have to go live your day. And I think maybe it's like a way for us to get recharged and reorient the right order of our thinking.

[00:18:54] Not that everything should be like that is that this is a very sacred and holy time. And it ought be, [00:19:00] but it ought point us. To the fact that we could have that for eternity as long as we're willing to sort of I'll say this carefully like suffer through the flesh now So anyway, that that's What I think about that, but let me come back because I did remember This is you know, the brain just is a wonderful thing the the other thing that happens in isolation is not only do you feel Lonely and miserable, but I think it makes you feel unique and I've run a lot of men's groups where guys come in and are like, man, no, like nobody can understand.

[00:19:31] Nobody gets me. Like, yeah. Like I know that other people like have problems, but you, you don't have my problems and my problems are so much worse. And what that does is it puts you into victim mindset, right? So. You're isolated. You're feeling crappy. And then not only do you just like feel crappy and maybe try to get better.

[00:19:48] You're like, Oh, nobody gets this. And like, I deserve better because it's not my fault. And then you get into this like crybaby victim mentality. And that's what we see across all of society today. And so like, it's [00:20:00] working. Thanks a lot, Satan. Like we just rebuke you in the name of Jesus in this place where we are in this conversation and anywhere you guys are listening.

[00:20:07] Like do not let that isolation creep in because you will start to become a victim and it's so hard to take responsibility when you've lived your life thinking that everyone's against you and it's not your fault. Do you have thoughts on that?

[00:20:17] Heston: Yeah, that's such an interesting, that's such a great point and very interesting because I can think back to a time in my life when I was living like that, which was college back in 2013, between 2013 and 2015, I was probably the most isolated I had ever been. I was living, you know, in a house with guys.

[00:20:39] My wife actually was a roommate of my friend, Jake. They lived upstairs. We lived in like a duplex. And I was just in my room playing league of legends, going to class and going to the gym, and I literally had no friends. I would only talk to Becca and I was just, I was just so attached to [00:21:00] my victim status, you know, that I had a hard upbringing, which is so funny because just yesterday, my mom sent me a picture of me as like a eight or nine year old.

[00:21:10] And I literally had a thought. I was like. My life wasn't really that bad.

[00:21:16] Curt: Dude, that's,

[00:21:17] Heston: it gave me chills, dude. I was like, because I saw this picture of me and I was like, Oh, I, I was a happy kid actually. Like, why did I think that my life was so bad? Because my parents might've been hard on me like a couple of times or something, or we had a couple of bad moments and they like, here, let's see, can, can you see this?

[00:21:43] Curt: Oh man, look at that cute little kid,

[00:21:46] Heston: that's what I'm saying. Like I, I saw that I saw that and I was like, I see this and I see, I see my son first of all,

[00:21:53] Curt: Yeah, no kidding.

[00:21:54] Heston: then I see me and I'm like, I was actually really happy. [00:22:00] And when I think about my life back then and coming to now, it's like, yeah, we had some hard moments and I just let myself believe that those things only were happening to me.

[00:22:14] And that I just like took that and I went away to school, you know, got sent off to college, lived in a different state, different town, three or four hours away from my parents had like my own response. Like I want to say responsibility, cause I definitely did not take responsibility but it was, you know, living on my own by myself.

[00:22:30] And I just let that like, make me dark. And then I just thought that I was like, and that was my reputation. My wife would like tell me, you know, a couple of years ago, she would say that people always thought I was so dark and mysterious. And that's why, like, that's why I did well with girls because they like, I was like broody and like quiet and like I was in shape back then.

[00:22:49] So I was like kind of shredded and had like veins going down my arms and stuff like that. And.

[00:22:53] Curt: That'll help.

[00:22:54] Heston: It, it was a killer combo. I was also on the verge of suicide every day. [00:23:00] So it was, I looked awesome and I was doing well with women, but I was like, every day was like, could have been my last. If, if I was just feeling like if the dice rolled correctly.

[00:23:14] Curt: the, the only reason this is one of those things my wife showed me a meme the other day was Stalin and it says black humor is like what is it? Black humor is like food. Not everyone gets it. so I feel like the only reason I can laugh here not irreverently is because I was in the same sort of place.

[00:23:35] And, you know, the, the. A Christian winger on my podcast said, you know, the street view, the curb appeal of your of your life can look awesome But you know the living room appeal and so on the outside like we were traveling I was running business I had kids we're married. Everything was awesome And you know inside my thai apartment as like what is the most like gentle way to die?

[00:23:57] What could I do that would like [00:24:00] not be traumatic for my family? Can you imagine like? Oh, well, okay, pill, yeah, he's dead with pills. I'm really glad he didn't shoot himself because that would have been worse.

[00:24:08] And so anyway, the only reason I'm sort of giggling with you is because like, yeah, bro, like we can laugh about it now, but it was real. And there's guys that are, that's very real for them and they don't know any better because they think they're so unique and special. And the sort of closing argument on all this is when you get around other men, it's actually good to realize that you're not special.

[00:24:25] Like you're really not, there's like 10 ish problems, a different flavor on top of each problem, perhaps it makes it yours. And of course you're like, we're all made individually and fearfully and wonderfully made as unique individuals in the image of God, but there's not that many different problems.

[00:24:41] And when you see someone. Who has a problem that's similar to yours and you suddenly feel less alone and you feel seen and then this guy's killing it and you're like, well, I didn't know I was allowed to kill it because I thought it was supposed to feel so bad about myself and you just like, man, you get buoyed like this, this rising tide lifts all ships sort of thing because there are just other [00:25:00] people who feel what you feel and it's so silly because you talk about emotional stuff and emotional regulation and communication.

[00:25:06] And it's so ridiculous because you talk to any man about it who's never done it and you're like you mean I could just say what I'm feeling and I'll feel better you idiot it's like no no no like trust me bro like just just share what you're feeling and you'll feel better it's like but that doesn't sound right like that's too easy and feminine but it ain't it's just human and it works so anyway don't be isolated is I think the moral of

[00:25:27] Heston: oh Yeah, it's it's crazy what you will be led to believe when you are the only person speaking into your life It's just like okay, like I can I I feel like I convinced myself that I had like crazy abusive parents And just because of the fact that like I was alone, like for four years after I left my house and I was like the only person speaking into myself, I was like, yeah, that sounds right.

[00:25:56] And then you, because you have your feelings, right? And your feelings [00:26:00] are not always correct. They are like a, I don't know. Someone like described it like they're like the, like an instrument cluster on, in your car. Right. It's just like telling you something about yourself and it doesn't tell you anything about the truth.

[00:26:16] It's just like, you feel this X, Y, or Z. And it's like, okay, like then you have to take that feeling and be like, take it to someone else, take it to a friend, take it to a mentor, a colleague, whatever. And it'd be like, I'm feeling X, Y, or Z. This is, you know, What actually happened, am I like way off on this or am I right?

[00:26:34] And I feel like guys that don't have at least like one friend to like do that. They will convince themselves that they are like Patrick Bateman, like Sigma, Chad grind set, like listening to dubstep music on the drive home. And they're like, this is literally me. And they're doing like a thousand crunches in their apartment, you know, while there's like a dead body in the back You know I'm saying like [00:27:00] it's like

[00:27:00] Curt: everyone's been there.

[00:27:01] Heston: It's like on Instagram though.

[00:27:02] You see it on reels and stuff there are guys that like romanticize just like being Ryan Gosling in Blade Runner or whatever or like driving in a post apocalyptic LA

[00:27:13] Curt: Yeah, all of these, like, Christian meme accounts. Like, it's always the Ryan Goslings and the Patrick Batemans

[00:27:19] Heston: Yeah, and it's just like why can't you post something about you know having A bunch of like six or seven guys like around each other, just like with their arms on each other, like holding each other like that, that is such a, I know we haven't done that with our group yet, but that is something that if there's an opportunity to do so, I'm really excited to just like hug every guy.

[00:27:40] That I've like shared stuff with that I've like supported and because there's genuine, you know Love there for guys that like have like messaged me and that's like the coolest thing is I think that being on the receiving end of your

[00:27:54] Curt: I've a bunch of

[00:27:55] Heston: Of a bunch of guys. Yeah. Of of you specifically, you do, you do a great job.

[00:27:59] I'm [00:28:00] super pleased money well spent. No, I think that that's something that maybe you don't get inside of. Cause like, you can't like hack into our Slack accounts and seeing our DMS and stuff like that. But I have like

[00:28:11] Curt: know what, I know a guy who's, who's doing some hacking right now, so if you could do that for me,

[00:28:15] Heston: everything's, everything's off limits. This, your stuff is off limits just cause, but I can't say I haven't tried, but.

[00:28:24] Curt: Anyway, sorry,

[00:28:25] Heston: No, no, it's funny. It's just beautiful to see that like. I have nothing. I would have never met like Brett, like if it wasn't for your group and he's like one of the most just like wholesome dudes I know, you know, and like Steve is probably the strongest man alive. Like, like, like if, if, if I had live, if it was me living through the things that he was living through, I would have been probably like on a boat somewhere.

[00:28:55] Like cooking fish with like a volleyball, Wilson, you know, [00:29:00] just like been like, this is enough for me. And it's just amazing what even on like a, in a virtual setting, being around like other guys and like seeing how they react to like the different flavor of the same 10 problems we all have. And it's like, Oh, like they're not like crying about it.

[00:29:15] They're not like quitting. They like want to be here still. And that was something that that was something that was very different for me was when like people like seeing through their problems to a conclusion,

[00:29:25] Curt: Hmm.

[00:29:26] Heston: even if like we can't even see that conclusion right now, because like the, you pass through the checkpoint of like, yep, we're staying married and it's like, okay, cool.

[00:29:34] Like now, we have the opportunity to. I would, I would say like have a second chance and to like not be the same, be the same man that we were, you know, for me, what, three or four years ago at this point, four years ago at this point, like, that's like the greatest, I feel like that's other than the salvation of Jesus Christ, that is the next best gift that can be given is when you have wronged your spouse in such a deep, [00:30:00] hurtful way and they still look at you and they're like, I forgive you.

[00:30:03] I'm extending you grace. Let's try again.

[00:30:06] Curt: Yeah.

[00:30:07] Heston: It's so heavy, dude. Like, that's, like, for them to, like, surre Like, you said, that was, like, something that, like, in your, in the content that you posted at the beginning of this series. It's like, dude, they, like, promised you their life. They, like, wrote, they wrote their name next to your name and said, I want to be with this person, like, for life.

[00:30:28] And they gave over their hearts, right? And that was, like, again, like, I messaged you. That was something that you said last week that... I like, I cried on that call. I like turned off my video for a second. I was like, I haven't done this with my wife. Like, I, I have not given her the power to hurt me.

[00:30:44] Curt: Oh yes. That, that love requiring love requires you giving the other person. The availability and ability to hurt you and trusting that they won't. And that, that was my hugest thing for a long [00:31:00] time. Natalie would be like, do you even love us? And I was like, yeah, of course. I was like, well, why doesn't it feel like that then?

[00:31:06] And that was the thing is that my boundaries were so. set up to keep me safe so that nobody could ever hurt me again. And I think that's what a lot of guys don't understand is the reason that they're closed off or harsh or whatever is not because like, Oh, it's just like a manly thing to do. Yeah, you know, sort of.

[00:31:27] But the, the real thing for a lot of us, like myself included was you don't ever want to be hurt again by someone that you love. And if you have put your trust in someone and have been betrayed, that's one of the hardest things to open yourself back up to, because the last example that you have of that is painful.

[00:31:46] And so imagine the amount of trust, imagine the amount of like surrender and vulnerability you have to have to be like actually. Here's my heart. You can hold it like forever, but I'm going to trust that you won't like step on it on purpose. [00:32:00] Please don't. But if you do, like, I know I'm going to be okay.

[00:32:03] It's just going to really suck. And I think there's two issues there. One is like, we don't want to get hurt against. We just don't give anyone our hearts. And the second thing is. Like you might give someone your heart, but then if they accidentally crush it or on purpose crush it, you're like, Oh no, my life is over.

[00:32:17] And there's no, I guess I talk about it in terms of like an emotional digestive tract. There's no Examples. There's no training on like, how do you actually navigate all these pains? And then come out the other side and see that the pain and the suffering Was actually for your good. It was a method of sanctification.

[00:32:37] And I think that's what I see in a lot of marriages Is that guys are going, okay, this is supposed to serve me. And guess what? Even if your marriage is so dysfunctional, it is serving you in sanctifying, in sanctifying you to be more like Christ. Even if you have to be the most patient service oriented, sacrificial person.

[00:32:59] Oh, guess what? [00:33:00] Those are traits of Christ, dummy. Like people just, they have such a narrow view of perspective. And I did until like literally three or four months ago, I was like, Oh, this whole like death idea, right? Like God makes everything for the good. Or like he makes all things right. Or whatever. And people are like, well, then.

[00:33:18] How come bad things happen to good people? How come I'm not like a millionaire yet, bro? Like, I prayed for that. But the problem is, we're looking so shallow in this vapor, John says, of life. I think it's John, and I think it's vapor. But it's like a passing mist, this life. But what we're not doing is going like, Oh, God's probably making all things good.

[00:33:38] For like the new Jerusalem for like heaven for eternity. And if we can understand that, like our story as Christians doesn't end when our lights go out on this earth, then we can realize like, Oh, I don't need to get repaid. I don't need to be like physically blessed. I don't need my wife to ever do anything for me.

[00:33:57] I know that this is God working in my [00:34:00] life. To be more ready to worship him forever. So I think that's really helped me over the last number of months. And just seeing that there's way more than just this life. And I'm trying my hardest to like, really, really believe that because it's tough when you've grown up without God to really, truly believe that kind of stuff.

[00:34:16] Heston: still have, I still have those thoughts all the time. I've been a Christian for five years now. It's like, is there really like something after we die? Cause like, I, I've traumatized myself and I use that word, you know I guess because that's the first thing that came to mind seeing like, you know, Ukrainian war footage and seeing like what it looks like to like die, like what it looks like for a guy, like in a trench to get like hit by like a grenade or something.

[00:34:43] And it's like, it's appalling, like what, what it can look like. And like, how can someone like then go into, go into peace when they have just like all that they have known is like chaos, you know, but that is not a limitation on God. That is a [00:35:00] limitation on my understanding of this life, the fabric of this, of this reality.

[00:35:04] You know what I mean? It's I don't know, man. It's really interesting. Yeah. I think that those doubts, those thoughts, I wouldn't say doubts, those thoughts, those questions. I think that they're just great opportunities for us to learn how to trust God more fully, right? It's like the things that I know about God, like give me Lord, give me the strength to to know those things that I know about you and to, and to feel them.

[00:35:30] And for the things that I don't understand yet, give me, you know, give me the, what is it? Give me the strength to believe, you know, in your promises, right? And to trust in you. And I think that that's, you know, it goes the. Being vulnerable in a, being vulnerable in a marriage, you know, having true love in a marriage and not like Disney true love, but giving your spouse the ability to, like, to hurt you, right?

[00:35:57] For them to, to hurt you. Cheat on [00:36:00] you for that, like, like, cause when you give them your heart, right? Like they, if they went and did something that like is outside of the confines, confines of your relationship, like that is devastating. Right? Like I did that to my wife. I saw that what did I saw that what that did to her, it was terrible.

[00:36:14] And to see that we probably do the same thing to God, like on a daily basis, we like devastate him and it's like, but then there's Christ. And it's, and, and Christ like turns to, to his father and he says like, forgive them father, they do not know what they're doing. Like we are like infants in our understanding of like what sin has done to the, to the place that God had prepared for us initially.

[00:36:42] It says in Genesis that God regretted creating humanity, but that doesn't mean that he hates us because he sent his son to redeem us. So he loves us, but to see. What we had made of his creation, it was appalling to [00:37:00] him. And I imagine that our fathers, my father has felt that way in his life towards me to see that what I have done with the blessings that he's given us to see that I've kind of just like, I don't know, dicked around for a while and not really had like known what to do.

[00:37:17] It's a. It's really, it's marriage is like a true extrapolation of like a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's, I think it's like kind of the only thing that you can like model. And I think that's probably why it's there. Like, like why that's why it's there, why that's there.

[00:37:36] Curt: Yeah, man, there's that, that's substitutionary sacrifice, man. Like I was trying to explain to my oldest the other day, he was having a hard time and feeling bad about himself. And I was trying to just help him understand like God's love. And it's tough for, for a lot of people. And I think for myself too.

[00:37:57] So I was talking to myself as I was talking to him, [00:38:00] but I was like. And this is coming off the back of your, you know, watching gore videos, like stop doing that, by the way.

[00:38:05] Heston: I did stop. I did stop. I told, I remember I brought that up with Chad once because he was like doom scrolling or whatever. And he was like, yeah, so I, I had to stop. Yeah.

[00:38:14] Curt: Yeah. Good. Good call. And if anyone is, you know, doing that, don't do that. It's bad. But the visceral. Nature of that I think is important to understand in the salvation story as well. Like even for me, as I was telling my son, I was going like, just imagine. You're in some like medieval kingdom and you broke like a really heinous law.

[00:38:37] And this, like the king has told you, if you break this law, like you're going to be killed. And it's almost like you did it in a stupor. You weren't like even quite sure what you were doing. It was just like something that you accidentally stumbled into. And then like you're being led to the gallows and you're like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:38:52] I didn't, I didn't mean to do that. What, what are you doing? Stop, stop, stop, stop. And imagine like. Death is staring you in the face. There's no friends around. [00:39:00] There's nobody who's gonna like shoot the the The the rope with an arrow like in a you know a movie You're about to die And every step is having you closer and closer to that end And there's like literally nothing.

[00:39:13] And you're just like filled with regret. Like, Oh no, I cannot, like, I must have blacked out. How could I do that? How could it be punished for something I didn't know? And you're panicking. And then like, as the noose like brushes against your hair, Jesus just like bolts onto that gallows and like body checks you out of the way he's like, no, no, no.

[00:39:30] Take me. And you're like. Well, no, like that, that doesn't make any sense. And I was talking to my wife. She's like, well, like that makes me feel guilty. I'm like, okay, that, that could work in every other situation, except for when the other person would die for you. Like, what are they going to, would you die for someone just to make them feel guilty?

[00:39:49] Like even the craziest person would never do that. And so here's Christ, what could compel. Christ to die for you other than [00:40:00] infinite love, like love greater than our comprehension, beyond all understanding, you're at the gallows, you feel the rope brush against your hair as it's about to go over your neck, and he says, You're gonna take me instead and the king's like, are you sure and I mean like I know in this story in the real story The king's like, yeah, you're gonna go do that for them because they can't but in in this like allegory He's like, yeah, take me and you're like, but I was what you're just so confused.

[00:40:30] He's like, no, I love you Like, I love you, greater love has no man than this, but to lay down his life for his friends. And that's what he did to each and every single person. And just seeing it as viscerally as that, like, that makes me feel. And that makes me, like, worship. And that makes me, like, overwhelmed in awe.

[00:40:50] And I think that's close to a proper ordered thinking of God, and I'm just, I'm striving to have my thoughts well ordered where [00:41:00] he's just the king of all of them and not just like in a glib sort of like, you know, meme way, which is hilarious, obviously but like in a very serious way, like I need to feel that hangman's touch and then I need to see Christ step in for me.

[00:41:15] And what would that be like if you're sort of a lukewarm Christian to be thinking about that? I think it's. Amazing, man, like it makes me shiver, think about that.

[00:41:24] Heston: People don't like to contemplate their deaths, you know, and, and

[00:41:29] Curt: No.

[00:41:30] Heston: they, they don't, they, they are very

[00:41:32] Curt: Yeah.

[00:41:33] Heston: uncomfortable with the idea that they will not be here forever. I know I was, dude, I used to have panic attacks thinking about me dying, like in my early twenties, it would, I would be obsessive over it.

[00:41:45] Like, like what's going to, what's it going to feel like? What's it going to be like? What's like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, it was just. It was the closest I had ever been to feeling like sheer terror. And then once I, once I realized [00:42:00] it was, it was really interesting because I felt like, you know, to, to answer those questions, I placated, I don't want to placate it.

[00:42:08] I, I answered them with the Stoics, right? It's like all men must die. Memento Mori, all men are going to die. Like every man shits, right? Like that's why, that's why like someone said this to me. A couple months ago, I think like, man, like you don't, you don't act like someone that has like a lot of wealth, you know, I'm like, I was like, yeah, like I shit in a toilet too.

[00:42:30] Like, like I, I, I like, I, I like I eat garbage. Like I'm sure you eat garbage. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's really funny. I think these I don't know. So anyway, Stoics, right? The Stoic philosophers to kind of like walk myself out of feeling. I was terrified about it, but it wasn't until I felt like I had a relationship with Christ.

[00:42:52] Did I actually feel peace about it? And now like I, when I think about it, it brings me joy because I know that I'll be with my [00:43:00] King, with our King. And to me, there's like, it excites me to be able to go and meet him and like, and see him, you know, like you were, you were talking about, you know. Like the disciples, like once Christ went, once Christ rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven, like they went and told the entire world and they all met brutal ends.

[00:43:24] And do you think they did that because they wanted to die or because they saw something so profound and miraculous that they had to go tell every single person they knew about it. And it's like that, like, I'm about to get to my apologetics right now, but, but, but for good reason, like people, like, Jesus is the most criticized man ever to live, like the most studied person alive.

[00:43:50] And people still have the audacity to say that he wasn't real. And it's like, it's like, okay, but you are, you do understand that the [00:44:00] smartest people to have ever lived. Have acknowledged that Jesus Christ was real. And like, are you, do you think you're at the same level of like Isaac Newton or like Albert Einstein or like, and, and, you know, we could talk about these old scientists because I think most, some of them were fake, but like, like Einstein, like, like, like, who is this?

[00:44:19] Who's this Einstein guy, by the way? E equals MC squared. What does that mean, dude? It doesn't mean anything. It's just, what is theoretical physics? It's. The study of an idea about physics that may or may not be true. It's like, it's really interesting to like, and paleontology, bro. Paleontology, bro.

[00:44:38] Curt: Science. Okay, it's the science.

[00:44:42] Heston: Don't question it

[00:44:43] Curt: how dare you? Science. I don't know if you knew this, but in the last five, in the last three years, science has gone from you know, the, the best hypothesis that has not yet been disproven to being any idea anyone ever has is just immediate fact. So I don't know like what they got wrong for the [00:45:00] last multi thousands of years.

[00:45:01] But I'm really glad now there were a place where any idea without being proven can simply just be true. Like, I'm, I'm really glad that I don't have to think anymore. So, you know, any, anything goes really, and we should just, you know what? I don't know if anyone's ever said this, we should just live and let live.

[00:45:20] Like, why doesn't anybody do that? Hey? Like, why don't we just like, man, I think after this conversation, I'm going to go and study dinosaurs. Because

[00:45:29] Heston: then gender theory, because vaginas.

[00:45:35] Curt: Equally...

[00:45:39] Heston: Why isn't there like a third option? Like, why isn't there like a unicorn horn or something?

[00:45:46] Curt: It's because you're white, Heston, and that's evil. That's it.

[00:45:51] Heston: sorry, Joe Biden. Please don't hurt me. I'm an evil white man.

[00:45:57] Curt: there are criss [00:46:00] crosses of clouds above your house right now. Thank you very much.

[00:46:02] Heston: Dude, I saw something today that might make your skin crawl.

[00:46:06] Curt: Was it a flat earth or was it a reptilian?

[00:46:09] Heston: No, no, no.

[00:46:10] Curt: Oh

[00:46:11] Heston: It was, Could airborne delivery of mRNA vaccines be coming shortly? Researchers at Yale have taken a giant step towards making this a reality. This episode delves into their research.

[00:46:26] Curt: man, that's like

[00:46:29] Heston: We cannot escape dude.

[00:46:31] Curt: That's like what I think it was Bill Gates who wanted to like put stuff in the air to block out the Sun to stop global warming

[00:46:38] Heston: Yes.

[00:46:38] Curt: And then you just sort of read scripture and you're like, yeah, it's it's I mean look I I don't know anything about Eschatology and I know there's a lot of people who are like the the millennial so and so like pre post millennial whatever and they're like We've got to build the new Christendom.

[00:46:53] And I love that because like, I'm obviously just going to keep taking action because that's the thing that I'm here for. Like God favors me with life right now. I need to [00:47:00] be doing something, but I think it's reasonable to also say like things are probably going to get worse before they get better, but is my faith in Christ or is my faith in what happens to me in this life?

[00:47:12] And that's the thing that's really been challenging me. And I'm like. Even if it does, like, even if it's the worst eschatological idea, even if like, it's going to get worse and we're going to be here and there's no rapture. And like, we're just gonna have to live through it. Like, so what? Like I'm going to die at some point through this, either through like a terrible thing or like of old age, because it's not actually happening this fast or some other reason.

[00:47:34] And then the same outcome will be here. Like I will go to heaven. And again, that's why it's so important for me to continue to do that thinking that you're doing, which is like, like, really, can I grasp that? Because the more I grasp the reality of God, the more I grasp what he says is being true, which means eternal life.

[00:47:50] The more I'm like, Oh, I'm good. Like I can be so much more chill. The you got anxiety problems, bro. You got depression problems. Go learn about Christ. Like [00:48:00] that's the, that's the answer to everything.

[00:48:01] Heston: he, he takes away the sin of the world, like, and

[00:48:07] Curt: Simple as.

[00:48:08] Heston: it's simple as, and it does, it's not even just like limited to sin. It's anxiety cast all your worries upon to like to the foot of the cross upon Christ cast like depression, loneliness, like it's, it's so mind blowing. It's mind blowing and I also do understand the extent of human pride and an unwillingness to want to surrender to something where people have to admit that they are wrong.

[00:48:43] They're living in a way that is like an abject. Ter, it's like, it's like, it's like Christ Christological terrorism. Like, they're like just, they're just here on the face of the earth, just like committing terrorism against Jesus Christ. [00:49:00] And, and like, they love it. They don't care. They know they will hear the gospel.

[00:49:05] They will, they will hear about Christ. And it's like when a drag queen tells like a, a joke about like, Christ getting crucified. I'm like, you're gross. You are gross. You are wrong. Christ is Lord. See you at the, see you at the finish line, Kim Wasabi. Because it's, it's, and it's, it's not about like, like, and it's like, I don't know. Am I being prideful saying, see you at the finish line because it's like these. I have a heart for people, right? I wish no one, just like God, I wish no one to perish.

[00:49:40] I wish no one's soul to perish in, in the place that he has prepared for these people. Like, and that's, that was something I didn't know up until recently was that hell was prepared by God. Not, it's not, you know, Satan's not running the show.

[00:49:53] Curt: Yep, it was prepared for Satan to be cast

[00:49:56] Heston: Yes. And so, yes. And so it's like, People are like, [00:50:00] oh, I'm gonna be partying with Sam Smith and the devil and down in hell It's like you're not gonna be partying you're gonna be

[00:50:08] Curt: No, you just have to read the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be like, oh my goodness, like please No, he's like dip your finger into water and just like place it on my tongue Not even like a drink like he's suffering so badly that he just wants this like Homeless dude to stick his wet finger near his tongue like that

[00:50:29] Heston: Think about where he's at

[00:50:31] Curt: Yeah, like that's not what you're saying when you're a little bit hungover after partying with Hitler, right?

[00:50:37] Like that's that ain't that ain't it

[00:50:39] Heston: it's no

[00:50:41] Curt: but but what you said about the pride thing is so real because I mean I'm coming at this with all the humility of having been wretched my entire life and You know, not that I deserve anything now because it's clearly that that's the thing you don't deserve it But I know what it feels like To be on that side going like, what do you mean?

[00:50:59] [00:51:00] God doesn't make any sense. But I also was listening, speaking of music coming way back to the beginning. Whatever song came on, I think it was at the cross by Johnny Cash. I think it was, but he says something like Give yourself because that's all you have. And it's like, Ooh, dang, here I am trying to prove.

[00:51:18] And a lot of guys, like a lot of people have. Works based faith. You know, that that's a thing people sort of understand what that is. But even when you like, don't try to do that, you're always trying to do that. At least I am. I'm like, well, if I can just be more, do more, whatever, that's an identity piece we talked about already.

[00:51:34] And this just struck me really hard today, hearing it. And it's like, oh, this is literally all I can do for God is surrender to Him. Nothing else. He's given it to me. It's like laid out on the table. And he's like, yeah, if you could just sit down at the banquet table and eat but I'm not going to make you.

[00:51:54] And I'm like, well, hold on. Like, I got to get dressed up. He's like, no, no, no, no. Just sit. And it's like, [00:52:00] well, what, what about, and he's like, just you. And that's crazy. Like, imagine if that, if you realized that all you had was you and the dying to self was the most, like, the only thing you could give to him was dying to yourself, like, ooh, that's, that's really crazy.

[00:52:20] Mind blowing to me what I can't I can't get myself to do that little and yet that little is the hardest thing in the entire world Isn't that curious like it is so simple, but it is almost impossible And that's like what they were saying about the rich man coming to heaven who can do this. This is it with man It's impossible, but nothing's impossible with God Like that's the only reason that we can even come close and we'll still be so far away Which is why we need all of eternity To get continually closer to him.

[00:52:51] Heston: it's just It's just the best like there's it's just it's just the [00:53:00] best and it's so interesting because The way that I was living before I became a Christian like there was no reason for me to become a Christian Like there I gained I like in my mind then Obviously, I have a completely different perspective now in my mind then I had nothing to gain because I was gonna lose all of the things that I loved most

[00:53:21] Curt: Right.

[00:53:22] Heston: and and it's like It's like backwards thinking.

[00:53:26] It's like, well, then like, why, like, why, you know, why did you become a Christian?

[00:53:30] And I was, you know, Eating in excess. I was also lifting weights. I was like gluttonous and vain and like fornicating like, like I said to who was this in the group the other day, I forget it's like, dude, like, like these, these women who are, our wives were once little girls that had the hope of like a marrying a man.

[00:53:52] And, and like, what a, what a gift that could be if you measured up to like what their hopes and [00:54:00] dreams were,

[00:54:01] Curt: Yeah. Well

[00:54:02] Heston: you know, it, and, and that is, I wake up and I turn over and I look at my wife now and like, it's, it's astounding to say that like my marriage is the best part of my life other than the fact that Christ has died for me on the cross, took my place when he, I was an orphan, I was a Because of what, of my sin, and instead of discarding me to the, to, you know, to the pile, he humbled himself to come to earth and, and take my place and bring me into the, as an adopted son into his family and point to me.

[00:54:42] And when he goes to the father and he says, this is my, this is my friend, Heston. He's welcome here. This is my friend, Kurt. He's welcome here. This is Natalie, your children. Like these are Becca my children like they are welcome here because they love you and they love me and they lived their entire Lives [00:55:00] they weren't perfect dad but they but they loved me and I saw that and I felt it and they talked to me and they invited me into their home and they they Like pull up a seat you could literally do that You know like pull up like an empty chair and invite Christ to sit and eat dinner with you Like I I have done that before and it feels different Like, and that's my schizophrenia, maybe, but you know what, I'm fine with that.

[00:55:27] Curt: And so am I.

[00:55:28] Heston: it's, it's, it's, it's, it's truly a mate, like clearing a seat in the car and inviting Christ in for this car ride. It's like, you don't have like, there's a very literal component to Jesus Christ being King, like not of just our lives, but of the world. And to know who he was through this book that we have been given and through natural, you know, natural revelation through the revelation of the Bible and, and encountering him, his presence, when it does happen, it's it like.[00:56:00]

[00:56:01] Did I ever tell you about that story about the birds flying over my head, circling over my head when I was mowing the grass? Does that ring a bell?

[00:56:07] Curt: Was it recently?

[00:56:09] Heston: I might've told you about it like four months ago, four or

[00:56:12] Curt: it rings a bell. I can't

[00:56:13] Heston: Yeah. Anyway, lamenting in my sorrow, having like a down day in my spirit. And I, and I called upon the name of the Lord to send me a sign that he loved me.

[00:56:21] And then two seconds later, a family of like three or four swallows were like flying in circles over my head for the entire time I mowed the lawn. And when I finished, they went away. And it was like, it was, was like un, is it unmistakable, unmistakable, I don't know, dude, I'm just, I'm just a white cis gendered hillbilly from Milwaukee, so was unmistakable that he was there, that he is just there with you, and you can literally give him a place in your home if you feel like you want to, so we do, and so we do.

[00:56:59] Curt: [00:57:00] that's crazy. The over the last couple of, well, over the last week, since I got back from Colorado, like I learned, I keep coming across things I'm like, I didn't know you could do that, like ways to pray, for example, and it's just like ignorance for not having been. In this for very long, but there was this it's like imaginative prayer and you're just like, you, you, you know, call on your thoughts to be silenced and you sort of bind to Satan and his, in his demons and cast them out in Christ's name.

[00:57:30] And then you basically just ask Jesus to come in to your mind and just say, like, I trust that whatever the next thought is in my head, it's going to be from you. And you just say, like, what would you have me do? Or what do I need to know here? And like, I've been doing that in this slow period and obviously terrible at it.

[00:57:46] So I miss most times, but the few times that I have, it's just like, Oh my goodness. I didn't know you could have a conversation because someone told me over this weekend. They're like, a lot of us, the way we pray is like, we're leaving voicemails on [00:58:00] God's answering machine. And like, that's not much of a relationship.

[00:58:04] Cause if you don't like answer his calls, when he picks up, he's going to have to like come in. In person, so to speak. And that's going to be a lot harder for you to hear probably. And I'm feeling like I'm experiencing that right now. And so just to have this idea that you can converse and then just ask the question and then wait, like I've even been trying to do that throughout the day.

[00:58:23] Like, okay, I finished the task that you told me to last time. Now, what would you have me do? And it's like, are you serious? Like I have to do every single time, but, but no, it's just like such an interesting way to live. And then obviously in order to hear the voice. I think, and I mean, he's infinite, he can do whatever he wants, but I think as humans, it's probably easier for us to discern that it's actually him when we're like devouring the Bible.

[00:58:49] If I don't know what his word says, then I can't really know who he is. And there's a lot of people who get this wrong. Like, I've heard a lot of people lately talk about like Christ consciousness and it's like [00:59:00] good vibes only bro, but like, that's not what it says. So if you don't check that against what scripture says, you're wrong.

[00:59:07] Heston: prepare to leave the faith, if that is what your interpretation of the Bible is, is Christ consciousness, good vibes only prosperity gospel. God wants you to be rich. He wants you to be, he wants you in your grind set only. You better be cashing checks and getting a hundred thousand Instagram followers every single day.

[00:59:28] You got to be making content, bro, because how else, how else is God going to make you famous, bro? Like, it's like, Oh, this is all just disgusting ego, like pleasing, like metrics and none of it has anything to do with Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are a vessel that he like, and that's such a, in Galatians.

[00:59:56] Is it Galatians 2. 20? I'm trying to [01:00:00] remember. Is it Galatians 2. 20? Or is it another verse? I think Galatians 2 20 is where it says that Christ now lives in me. And it is not me who, who is alive, but it is Christ inside of me. I believe that's Galatians 2 20. And it's like, he, and have he, when you become born again, your heart is exchanged from stone to flesh.

[01:00:21] He literally inhabits your body. And you now have an explanation as to why anything good in your life has ever occurred. It's like, Oh, okay. Like now he's like literally inside of me. How do I give this to other people? And you will know it is, it is God speaking to you because there will not be a, it will, it will not contain anything sinful in it.

[01:00:47] And I think that's, you know, something that really took me a long time to understand was that. God will never ask me to sin. He will never ask me to do something that is against his [01:01:00] nature and his character. And how do you, it's like a radio, right? Like you, you got to adjust the antenna enough, or you got to like, whatever the case may be, the Bible is the, is the radio and your amount of, you know, time in scripture in reading.

[01:01:12] And I'm like, dude, I am, I'm so bad at reading my Bible. So this is like, like, you know, advice to myself, it's like. You have to literally read it every single day and you should probably be like reading through it every year. Like there are, there are Bible stories that I don't even like, no, like by heart.

[01:01:31] And like, that's like the easiest thing to remember is narrative, right? Oh, like, like David, you know, David and Goliath and like, what, like I understand what happened there, but I can't tell you like specifics, you know, what happened or like why it was occurring or anything like that. And it's like, you know what?

[01:01:48] I know that I need to be. Reading through this every year on a daily basis and giving it to my family because that is, you know, my responsibility as high priest of the house. [01:02:00] Is to read the Bible to them and teach them about the Lord and about the world and about people and how people are sinful and they've never done anything good and they will probably get let down time and time again, but your hope, your hope is in Christ and you don't write people off and you extend forgiveness as you have been forgiven.

[01:02:18] That was like the biggest thing, dude. And when you and I have talked about that, it's like. That's like, oh man. Okay. Interesting. The more I forgive my parents, the more I realize I actually love them and care about them. And I also am remembering now more about my life as a young child and being like, oh, it wasn't that bad

[01:02:39] Curt: Hey,

[01:02:40] Heston: or maybe I'm just getting, maybe I'm extending the forgiveness that I should have been extending.

[01:02:48] And now I'm coming to understand that they are people subject to sin who cannot escape being evil. Because that's, because that's what [01:03:00] it is. Sin is evil. It's wrong in the eyes of God. That's why he cast people in the hell when they're unrepentant sinners. It's like you have blemished the face of this earth, but like, that's also at the same time, you have the gift of accepting Christ as your Lord and savior and having him pay your fine for you.

[01:03:18] Cause he's just like, he's like, you, you're, you're a baby. You know, your baby, hopefully your parents are Christians or they take you to church because they want to give you a moral compass Like and and you're like, oh this Jesus guy is like pretty awesome. And he's literally just like take the gift, bro It's free like it's free All that I ask you to do is put your flesh and yourself to death and follow after me. It's like, okay

[01:03:49] Curt: Simple as,

[01:03:51] Heston: simple as

[01:03:52] Curt: simple as, yeah, dude, the my granddad has a good one about this. You know, question in mentoring man is often like, well, tell me [01:04:00] about how, how, how much you're in the word, how much you're reading your Bible. What does that look like? And they're like, ah, you know, probably like a, maybe like a last week I did.

[01:04:08] And he's like, okay when was the last time you missed a meal? They're like, are you dumb? Like, I don't miss meals. And he's like, well. The scripture is soul food. And so if you wouldn't miss a meal for your body, what are you doing missing it for your soul? Like, like it doesn't make any sense. So getting that daily bread, the bread of life that we all need.

[01:04:28] So that's just like, since that's one thing that I'm, I'm very grateful to God for is he just put that on my heart immediately. I've been reading and reading and I started at the beginning of this year, Bible in a year. Never missed a day. I mean, I don't miss, so that's not surprising. That's one of the things that he's given me as a gift as well.

[01:04:45] Speaking of which, that's a huge conversation, by the way, the acceptance of gifts rather than feeling guilty and bad. Just being like, yep, that's what he gave me. Great. It's for other people, not me. But like, anyway, that's not the point of it. But yeah, dude, like it's been incredible to read through because I'm doing like a pretty hardcore one.

[01:04:59] It takes me [01:05:00] 45 minutes to an hour every morning. And that's part of why I wake up as early as I do, because I'm not going to miss that. So I'm first thing I'm up, I'm stretching, and then I go for a prayer and gratitude walk. Then I go to the gym, then I take like an hour to read scripture, journaling on it, and then like write a little love note to my kids and wife.

[01:05:16] But, going through the one I'm doing right now, like every single day I'm touching on a little bit from Old Testament, Gospel, New Testament, Proverbs, and Psalms. So I get like a little, I get a cornucopia of just all of it. And, That's awesome. Like I have learned so much and it's like I long for it. I hunger for it always because it's just so good and like man the last couple of weeks He's just been like here's exactly what you needed to hear today.

[01:05:47] Just if you read this like it would be awesome and so I'm reading it and that's so good Like it's so alive and it says it's sharper than any two edged sword. It just like cuts to my core all the time So I think it's [01:06:00] like perhaps the most important discipline Prayer obviously in there as well, but it's just like the foundation that I use for everything else.

[01:06:10] So it's, it's so exciting too. It's like the Old Testament is like a story and it's incredible. And then just, you know, read Ecclesiastes like I just finished and it's like, everything's meaningless except for this. And that's okay. And I'm like, Oh, that's exactly what I needed to hear. And now I'm reading like song of songs.

[01:06:27] I'm like, this is very interesting. Why is this here? And it's like, you, I have to ask myself that, why am I reading this? Like, what does it, your breasts are like does in the something or other. And I'm like. What does this have to do with anything and so like that's part of the thing is can you can you read what it says But then can you like take a step back and go why did God put that there?

[01:06:47] So anyway I'm not a freaking expert. I just read it every morning. So

[01:06:50] Heston: No, and that's the thing is

[01:06:51] Curt: to say about that

[01:06:53] Heston: we, there's no expectation that we are like theologians, like that. I think that [01:07:00] that's a, I would, I would say like an unspoken, I don't know, I would say expectation, but like to be a Christian, like You don't have to memorize the entire Bible or be a, like a theologist to be able to explain everything perfectly because you're expected to have faith like a child.

[01:07:19] It's like, I believe it's like, I believe, but I also know at the same time that I need to do a better job of. Reading the Bible and then reading it to my family. I love that you do that. Like everyone's kind of sits around and you'll, do you do that often? Like

[01:07:35] Curt: yeah, I try to do it every single night we probably get it like 75 percent of the time But yeah,

[01:07:41] Heston: I'm going to do that tonight.

[01:07:42] I'm going to do that tonight. I'm going to make a point to, you know, six o'clock just gather everyone around. We have a family Bible. It's up on our mantle. It sits above the house and because I want everyone to see. That, you know, the kids, when they were growing up, they can at least say that there was a Bible in the house and it was like in plain sight, you know,

[01:07:59] Curt: [01:08:00] and it will give them a good moral compass. Who knows like that's

[01:08:02] Heston: dude,

[01:08:03] Curt: Right in the heart

[01:08:05] Heston: that is, yeah, so funny though.

[01:08:07] Curt: Don't give, yeah, don't, don't read too much, especially young. Like I'm, I noticed that even like a full chapter was too much for us and my kids are older. So I've just been doing like you know, those paragraphs.

[01:08:17] Heston: Yeah.

[01:08:17] Curt: I just read like, you know, a couple of the whole books.

[01:08:19] It's fine. I just tell them to shut up and sit down. But yeah, like those paragraphs when they're broken up with headings, I just read like one or two of those.

[01:08:25] Heston: Do you put your Crusader cape on in your helmet? They're like, yeah, this is boring. You're like, you're like, shut up.

[01:08:32] Curt: Obviously we yeah, that's that's a theme in our house. Actually. I'm i'm dressed down for this interview I'm usually in my full crusaders knight

[01:08:41] Heston: Suit of armor.

[01:08:42] Curt: I mean my my My oldest is named george and that was partially due to st. George the dragon slayer, which by the way When we went to drum heller, which is like the dinosaur museum up here a dinosaur I say in air quotes my kids were like Can you believe anybody thinks these were not [01:09:00] dragons?

[01:09:00] What idiots!

[01:09:03] Heston: That's so base though. That's so base.

[01:09:06] Curt: ultra, ultra based.

[01:09:08] Heston: Where do you want to go from here? What else do you want to talk about? I actually had a question for you that I thought about probably 30 minutes ago. At this point, do you think that when you were speaking about guys, probably saying that sharing their emotions or speaking them out loud is, is feminine.

[01:09:26] Do you think that there is a, a fear among men that having close male relationships is gay? There'll be like seen as being gay.

[01:09:38] Curt: I think for some guys, and like, for me, it's never been a case because I'm not gay, like, I don't have any fear about that. And it's never been a fear of mine. Like, Ooh, I'm so uncomfortable with who I am that maybe they're going to think I'm gay. I think it's always been like a longing for me to have those people.

[01:09:56] It's just been like fear that's kept me away from men as [01:10:00] well as just an assumption that everybody hates me and that they've got their lives sorted out. And I don't I think, I mean, I've heard that I've heard that in the culture that guys think it's gay, but I don't know that I've talked to anybody in person.

[01:10:13] And so that makes me question, is that like a real thing? Or is that just like, did it come out of the ether to convince men that other men think that they might be gay for wanting friends? I don't know. What do you think? Do you feel gay for wanting friends?

[01:10:27] Heston: No, I, and I think that that's more of a Hollywood, you know, it's coming from the top down, you know, it's coming from whoever controls media sources, society, whatever, pulls the strings, Freemasons, et cetera. You know, whoever controls what's being made in Hollywood. I noticed a lot more lately that sexual.

[01:10:48] Orientation comes up a lot when there is a depiction of a ma like ma, male friendships, like close male friendships, bromance, right? Like, oh, they're, you know, they've got a bromance, like [01:11:00] they're, it's like romance and they're bros, right? It, it's just like, like, why, why? I, I, I see that and I'm like, I, I don't ask myself why, 'cause I know why they want men alone, isolated, depressed, anxious, they don't have like, you know, feeling like it's You can't trust other men.

[01:11:18] And then if you do, they want, they are gay. Like they, they want to be with you and be friends with you because they're actually gay.

[01:11:24] Curt: Right. And that yeah, there's so many layers of deception in that. And I mean, you think even David David and Jonathan in Samuel, like they had a bond closer than like a man and wife, I think it said. And so, of course, I've heard the narrative, like, well, they were just gay, then you're like, well, if you've never had a really good male friend, like there's something, obviously the, the husband and wife relationship mirrors that of Christ and his church.

[01:11:52] So it's, it's sort of like a primary in the way that God set up the world. He made us. You have to be a team to [01:12:00] do what he says in Genesis 1, 28, like we, we can't, he didn't tell us as man, go do this. And then later give us a wife. He gave us a wife and blessed them and then said, go out and rule and subdue and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

[01:12:14] But a man can get you more than a woman will ever get you. And in that, in that like side by side, brotherly fight against the world. When you can trust a guy with your life and he totally gets you. I mean, it, it, it makes, it doesn't surprise me to read in the Bible that their love was greater than, you know, husband and wife or whatever it says.

[01:12:37] I am not, maybe not right about that. But that's not gay, bro. And like, that's just, yeah, you're totally right, man. Like it isolates it confuses, it stops people from making that, that move because maybe they think the other guy's thinking, nobody's actually thinking this, but they're like, Oh, everybody else says this is true.

[01:12:56] Therefore, like, I don't want to be gay. But then they're like, well, everyone's gay these [01:13:00] days. Maybe I should be gay. Am I bad for being straight? Like, Oh my goodness. They get into this whole. Critical race, self hatred thing. And so, yeah, dude, it's just like more and more confusion. And what can we do to silence the world and just like do what's right.

[01:13:14] And I think like, that's one of the things that we've been successful in is we just, you know, people know by now that when they say, bro, you should watch, they're just like, nevermind, you're not going to watch it. I'm not even going to tell you to, because we don't consume that trash. I don't like, I.

[01:13:29] Don't know any new music. I don't know any of this stuff. And it makes me feel stupid sometimes because I'm so out of touch, like, especially creating content. I'm like, what did the kids like these days? You know, I feel like that Steve Buscemi meme. Hello, fellow

[01:13:44] Heston: Hello, fellow kids.

[01:13:46] Curt: I don't know anything, but. It's caused everything to really be sort of settled in my mind.

[01:13:53] And I think I'm, you know, hopefully I'm not being prideful here. I'm, I think that God's given us a very sort of [01:14:00] peaceful, content life because of that. And so, yeah, I don't worry about things like what people think other than in very intimate one on one relationships. And then I like, I really care what other people think.

[01:14:11] And that's my problem when I'm working on right now. So just wanted to sort of couch or vouch. That, with the truth.

[01:14:18] Heston: sure. No, I think, and to, to be certain, I don't think that any of the guys in our brotherhood subscribe to that belief that it's. Like gay to have close male friendships. I just wonder that if the guys that you've had calls with and haven't joined, I wonder if they are of the opinion that it is not, you know, not, it's not important to have close male friendships because, you know, they're, they're, you know, Sigma grindset chads, they're, they're alpha by themselves.

[01:14:54] And, and I, like, just, it's really interesting because I feel like. I know, [01:15:00] I know the headspace that I was in like nine months ago now, before, before you and I had our conversation, like I thought I could fix everything myself and now I'm like looking back at that and being like, first of all, I wasn't surrendered to Christ in that thought because I cannot do anything without him.

[01:15:24] And then also having older guys who also have the same problems I do, it's like, Oh, okay. If I don't do something about this and learn from someone else who has beat this, like I'm, I'm going to lose my family. And so like, I don't have time to think about whether or not this is gay.

[01:15:45] Curt: Ha ha

[01:15:46] Heston: You know, I mean, like, I don't have, there's too much, it's, there's,

[01:15:49] Curt: said, man.

[01:15:50] Heston: there's too much at stake for me to be concerned about, you know, like, oh, I'm supposed to be able to figure this out myself.

[01:15:59] Like [01:16:00] I'm, and, and I just, I would love to just be a, you know Virtual fly on the wall during your, your calls, like consultation calls with guys, because I'm, I would just like, love to know, like what holds them back. Like, of course, there's a financial investment, right? Like, and I'm sure that that plays into it most of the

[01:16:19] Curt: bit cheaper than, like, divorce and therapy for your kids, because you did nothing.

[01:16:23] Heston: and I was actually going to ask you at some point, like, have you ever done like traditional talk therapy? No. Okay.

[01:16:32] Curt: No. I,

[01:16:33] Heston: That's, that's, let me, let me tell you, I have. And your coursework was more effective.

[01:16:39] Curt: Thank you. I believe that because therapy, in my opinion, is a solution to a modern problem that didn't exist before the removal of Christ from the society. So, of course, it's going to be a hollow thing. Now, Christian counseling, I think, is very important. Pastoral counseling, I think, is very important.

[01:16:56] But if you're talking and making [01:17:00] your emotions king, which most therapists do, and most therapists are women, which is even worse for men You're probably not gonna get anywhere. It might be really here's the thing men and humans these days are so starved of connection and emotional Vocabulary and communication and feeling that having anybody talk to them about even the most basic stuff can feel like revolutionary and so that's why I think it so called works for some people because they're going from like Negative a hundred to like a negative 50 and they're like, Oh, this is the best thing ever, but they're still so far away from being who they could be.

[01:17:39] And yeah, who they could be, which is, I think where, what we do has a little bit more weight because we're going to talk to you about all these things. You have to have the habits to earn the trust. For yourself and your wife, you have to have the skills to stop, like, kicking every barking dog, you know, if you're this angry guy in your house and you can't communicate and you can't have your [01:18:00] emotional vocabulary and you can't stay calm in anger and you, you know, suck at being a husband and a father and you can't lead and you're not setting boundaries.

[01:18:06] Then basically every time you're with your family, you're just hurting them. And so we've got to do that. And then once you like, stop being the, stop, you know, sucking at what you're doing, because let's face it, most of us are doing that because our dads and you know, elders didn't show us how, and it's not your fault that you don't know, but like, it's your responsibility to figure it out once you do that, then.

[01:18:26] When you're like at the place where you're sort of neutral then you start to build and you've got to build forward You've got to fall forward. You've got to take action. You've got to have someone behind you being like bro I see you and I feel you and right now I'm just gonna like hold this space for you But then like the next day Be like, bro, what are you doing?

[01:18:45] Like, you've got to get to work. Like, get off your ass and get to work. And a therapist is never going to do that. Because, again, what are their incentives? Their incentives are to keep you in that chair. And there are good ones out there. I'm friends with a good one. But they're very exceedingly rare.

[01:18:58] And it's probably not because he's a therapist that [01:19:00] he's a good, helpful man. It's because he's a great man that he's a good therapist. So anyway. I'm not here to judge what sort of, like, healing path you go down, but if you actually want it to work, then obviously you should work with someone who's going to hold you accountable, not just tell me about your feelings and tell me more about your parents and tell me more and tell me more and tell me more because that gets you in the victim mindset real

[01:19:20] Heston: Let me, let me tell you something really quick. Let me, let me do the math here. Times 52 times

[01:19:29] Curt: doing public math.

[01:19:30] Heston: a public math, which is something that I have never thought that I would do after high school. So I spent over, over three years, over three years seeing a therapist. I spent 31, 200.

[01:19:44] Curt: Oh.

[01:19:45] Heston: 200 a session, once a week, 52 weeks times three for three years

[01:19:52] Curt: Yuck.

[01:19:53] Heston: and not once was I ever challenged to take a different action or change [01:20:00] my behavior.

[01:20:01] I was just always told. Like, Oh my gosh, you know, it's because, Oh, you, you know, it's because of how you are viewing your, you know, your childhood or whatever it's, it's okay. It's okay. Like, you know, it's just,

[01:20:20] it, it might be okay to like, just look back and try to come to some level of like acceptance, I guess, but. The biggest, I think the biggest catalyst to my change specifically was just the amount of action that I was doing and taking when I, when I look over the last four years of my marriage, specifically, I was so lazy, like with what I do now to compared to what I was doing then, when my wife and I like got married at the courthouse, October 11th, 2019, so this will be four years, like I, yeah.

[01:20:58] I was, I, like, [01:21:00] you can measure it by how many steps I was taking on a daily basis. I was at, like, three or four thousand steps a day. And now I'm at, and now, yes, basically, or to picking up our daughter and feeding her and then putting her back in the bassinet and then working on the couch and just sitting and, and, like, not helping with the dishes and not, like, doing the yard work and not helping fold laundry.

[01:21:22] And I know that's, like, There's a bunch of different kinds of work, you know, there's like the physical household work, which is important there's the sit down emotional work between you and your wife where you like sit and learn about each other still and I Don't I don't I guess you could probably chime in on that but like There's a I don't know man, but now I get like 15, 000 steps a day like every single day And it's probably cause I'm chasing kids around now because they can walk. But I just know for a fact that, and this is not like, you know, how do I say this correctly? This is not like podcast [01:22:00] Heston talking. This is just like me talking to you. Like no one had ever expected me to like get up and do anything physically other than you. Which I thought was like, what made all the difference.

[01:22:13] Was like you need to like get up and move your body because It's not gonna be done for you. And I and I think that with what you have been Talking about lately about how like be still and know that I am God chill out take a rest do that There's it's like a I think it's like a balance You know, there's like a level of like action.

[01:22:36] We need to be taking And there's a level of rest we need to be taking. And for some people, right. It's like harder for you to figure out how much rest you should be taking and like, where do you cut back on action? And for me, it's like harder for me to figure out where I should be taking action when rest is like what I'm used to, you know what I mean?

[01:22:53] And so, and I'm just, I, I pray for you on a daily basis that like, you just don't [01:23:00] judge yourself for trying to figure out, you know, Like, I don't know, for having it be a struggle for you, and it doesn't make you, like, It doesn't make you like a bad Christian that like you don't know how to like do it now, you know what I mean?

[01:23:16] Curt: Man, the, the, there's so much wrapped up in this. Actually, my good friend of mine here, is the same way. I was like, Oh, you'll be so proud of me. Like I, I rested and I like turned the TV on to look what was on there. And he's like, Oh, I'm smiling because you just like explained every day of my life. Like what?

[01:23:35] Cause he's so good at going with the flow. And he's like, yeah, I've got to like turn on my work thing. Cause I hustled for so long and I don't really need to as much anymore, but I still have to take action. So. I'm just good to like rest and read and be in the sun and communicate with people. And I'm like, Oh man, this took me like, this has taken me years to get to the point where I can like do half a day.

[01:23:55] But I think that. A couple of things come up. Number one is I saw [01:24:00] through this couple of days in Colorado that there's like tears to this. And I was trying to be everything to everybody while also participating in every single step along the way. And like that doesn't serve me and it doesn't serve anyone else.

[01:24:13] And what I think I saw was that there's sort of a zero to one like the man who was me seven, eight years ago. Never heard of self improvement. Never heard that you could be a good dad. Never heard you could be a good husband. Just like going through the motions, going like, well, I guess this is my lot in life.

[01:24:27] And I just suck. You teach him some basic accountability from habits. So replace bad habits with good habits. And here's some skills. To stop sucking. That's like phase one. You have to have that before anything else. And then I realized that the accountability and the brotherhood going along then with the leadership and legacy stuff, you're casting the future vision and leading your family.

[01:24:50] That's got to come almost next. That has to be like the second. Part of what we're doing here. And then there's sort of like, I did that too. So [01:25:00] where am I? Well, I'm in this other stage sort of between the 10 and a hundred. And I used to feel like guilty. Cause I'm like, Oh, I've got to be doing everything that you guys are doing all the time.

[01:25:08] Cause I got to prove myself to you and you're not going to follow me if I'm not doing everything. And like, dude, this is like, obviously my daily habit stack anyway, which is why you're doing it. Cause like it works for me. And then hopefully you can make it your own. But I realized as well, like my focus right now.

[01:25:22] Is like the, what is it? One to zero to one, one to ten. I'm, I'm at like the ten to a hundred right now, where I'm trying to figure out how do I like have a family team? How do I like set rest days on the Sabbath? Because I was learning this from family teams and the guy who runs this in Mastermind that God made the seven day week for a reason.

[01:25:41] And the flow of the week is perfect. And if only we honored that and held it as sacred. It would be awesome. So like, it's not so much about a balance, so to speak, about just respecting the way God made the world. And that's way easier than the going like, am I balanced here? Am I balanced there? It's like, no, everything's, he would call it, everything is [01:26:00] integrated.

[01:26:00] That's the whole point of this mastermind. I went to everything's integrated together. And so here I am. Understanding that, Oh, it's okay for me to share what it was like zero to one for me. And here's how to get through it. It's okay for me to share what was one to 10. And it's okay for you guys to get through that because I did that.

[01:26:15] But now my journey, my very personal journey, which is so hard when I've got a so called public persona, which like isn't big, but a lot of guys, you know, would know that it's so much me. That I'm like, what do I share? Do I just share training? Do I just share my life? Do I share my story? Do I show what I'm doing now, but it's not really relevant to everyone who I would need to serve anyway.

[01:26:34] So my thing is like, how can I find the rhythm now? How can I do all of this together? We're homeschooling, running a business, married for 11 years. We've got a baby where, you know, all this kind of stuff is not zero to one. And it's not the next step either. It's this, how do we build a cohesive team? That works together.

[01:26:50] Everybody's integrated. Everyone loves being with each other, ministry and business and all this kind of stuff are related. And then. I was unveiled to, or it was unveiled to [01:27:00] me. There's like a hundred to a thousand or a hundred to infinity. And that's the point where you've built the family team.

[01:27:06] Everyone's really on the same page. You're loving the rhythm of your life. And then you go and be disciples. And that's brilliant because the business is taken care of. You've got, you know, assets and resources potentially, or God's providing some other way. And then as a family unit. And as like the purpose of your whole life is you just like go and tell people about Jesus in the way that your family is meant to do that and seeing it as like structured phases of life like that has been so helpful for me rather than just thinking that I need to do every single step along the way all the time because then I'm doing like I'm doing my zero to one steps to show you guys and I'm doing my one to ten to show you guys But like, really that's adding on top of my actual life and it doesn't serve everything in that.

[01:27:50] So I I'm sure I've lost the initial thread of where this was going, but it's been very interesting to see that in my life.

[01:27:56] Heston: that's that's a it's almost like you have to [01:28:00] stop asking yourself the level one questions and You have to start asking yourself, you know, the level 100 questions. It's like When you when you're talking about this like am I balanced here? It's like that might not even be the right question.

[01:28:16] Am I abiding? In the way that God has structured the week and is my family here, like, are we trying to find a balance in a place where balance, like, might not even be a part of the equation. It's just going up here and being like, you have to like kind of learn how to surf and, and like teach everyone how to surf so that, you know, someone doesn't get like caught in a riptide and like, and drown

[01:28:40] Curt: waves, right? Like I was just reading endurance to my son, John, and this book, Ernest Shackleton's adventures, whatever in Antarctica. And it's like, man, he talks about the like 40 foot waves and then they go up, but then there's like the equal amount down. That's how a wave works.

[01:28:53] If you believe science, which I don't, therefore it's probably not how waves work, but you know what I mean? So you're like at the top of this wave and your boats [01:29:00] at the top. If you're like, I don't know, rowing into the wave or like you're, you're, you can make your boat ride the waves up and down rather than being like crushed by them.

[01:29:11] Because if you're facing the wrong way, you're going to take on water or whatever. So the point is, can we face our family boat? Into the wave in the right way, such that when we're at our highs, we're just riding the waves. And when we're at our lows, we're still just riding the waves. And there's no judgment in that.

[01:29:28] There's no like, Oh, things are supposed to be perfect all the time. I'm on a low point. I suck. It's like, Oh, this is hard right now. But like our family boat is together. Like let's. Keep going because there's another way of coming. And that's so good. And I've realized that so much of what keeps guys back from like the first couple of steps, so to speak, is this judgment of self that like, Oh, I shouldn't feel like this.

[01:29:50] It's like, Oh my goodness, just feel it, get through it and then carry on. Stop judging the feeling or It's like, Oh, well, this is hard and it shouldn't be hard. I'm like, bro, this life, [01:30:00] you kidding me? You think like, just because I'm through the hard part now that like, I don't have horrible days and things don't break, breaks all the time, but my response is even keeled and I know I'm going to get through it.

[01:30:10] And the response to hardship is the thing that you're looking for. I think.

[01:30:14] Heston: Yeah, I think that that calm, it's like a patriarchal calm, right? Like the calm that a father can provide in the family, like being able to instill that in your children and give that to your wife, I feel, I, I feel like that is my level 50. Like that, you know, if I, if I've gone from, you know, level one to like seven, I would say.

[01:30:42] Like I feel like right now I have my family like my family stuff is mostly nailed I have like slip ups here and there blow, you know, maybe I want to say blowouts But like like, you know a couple arguments here with my daughter me not understanding what's going on with her bringing it to the group Right and then being having [01:31:00] all these guys be like dude, like you're doing totally fine Like she's going to be upset sometimes And it, it probably, you know, and it, and it doesn't matter if it has to do with you or not like that's, and that's like.

[01:31:15] What I was, I think my initial thought was, is like, I feel like I probably get stuck in the same question. Like I asked myself the same, same questions over and over again, instead of being like, oh, okay, this was the wrong question I'm asking. Instead, I should be asking, am I being consistent in holding a boundary?

[01:31:34] Is this an appropriate time to be holding a boundary? Or is there something bigger here going on where I can like acquiesce a little bit and give them something? And then, you know, a couple of days later we sit down, have a conversation, you know, transitioning into school, transitioning into a new house.

[01:31:50] Like that's like very real for us, obviously, as we've moved and have started school and giving, giving them something, giving them a gift saying yes, where we would [01:32:00] normally say no. And then like kind of sitting down and reconvening, like it's the ability to mentally, or like, I feel like I should probably have like a whiteboard or something.

[01:32:12] And just like cross off questions and write new questions and like assign like a level to it Like is this a is this like a level 50 question or is this like a level 7 question? And like and do I have a solution to that because I feel like if you're able to solve these Questions, you know, you're able to come up with an answer and you test it and it's like successful They're like, okay cool Like I can now know like what I could like in this specific situation or when I feel X Y or Z I know that it's because of X Y or Z and I can answer it accordingly and take care of it accordingly and do so in a way that honors Christ and that delivers to my like wife and kids a more stable loving and calm like father, you know And that's, I, I, I'm, I, I'm seeing it as that more in [01:33:00] my life.

[01:33:00] It's like, I, I, I have like such a bad habit of talking a lot. And, and it was, it was, it was something I actually brought up with my wife. Like last year, I was like, I talk when. I'm uncomfortable and I like, and there's silence because I, in my, in my family, when I was growing up, like when there was silence, it was usually because there was a lot of tension and like people were trying not to like scream and yell at each other.

[01:33:27] So like, I just like try to keep it going for everybody. Right. And I think maybe you can kind of relate to that as well in your childhood. You're like kind of the peacemaker, right? Have you, have you said that? And so I was the same way to a certain extent. I was always trying to like, make everyone laugh.

[01:33:41] That was my biggest thing was like, be the jester. And in, in that I picked up a bad habit of never shutting up. And so it's like, okay, like I think I may need to stop talking so much. And because I'm just injecting like energy into the house, like over and over and [01:34:00] over again, instead of just like letting it be like still like the stillness.

[01:34:03] Right. And that piece. And I think that that's. In that stillness and peace, which I believe comes from the Lord, from God for things to, you know, for us to be able to look out over the ocean and just like, in that moment, time is just like suspended and it's just still, and it's like, I wonder if I can bring this into my house and it's like, well, what do I do on a daily basis?

[01:34:24] Oh, like I talk like 200, 000 words on a daily basis. It's like, what if I cut that in half? You know, and so, so I wonder if that's real for you, like, are you finding yourself asking yourself different questions right now? Are you, and you're struggling to come up with answers because you're in like uncharted territory, it's, it sounds like from like what you've been like explaining to all of us, or are you like, you know, asking yourself new questions and you are actually finding new answers, but they're just answers your ego don't like.

[01:34:56] Curt: All of the above, but I want [01:35:00] to encourage the intention of changing things that you think are habitual and just the way things are. And I don't mean like you specifically, cause you just said you're trying to do this. But speaking and breathing have been two things that when I was in university, I literally practiced doing.

[01:35:18] And so my average breath now is into my belly. And I know for a lot of people, the average breath is into the chest. Well, I've worked on bringing it lower because I know a lower, calmer breath will literally physiologically do something to calm me down. So I've spent time getting that right. I've also spent time...

[01:35:40] Taking a moment before I'm going to speak. This was something we talked a lot about. When I was in politics running campaigns and working on campaigns is how does the candidate speak and what is the media getting from him? And oftentimes you feel compelled to [01:36:00] immediately respond. Someone asks you a question.

[01:36:02] You're like, well let me see here. Well, you know, we and there's a lot of filler words that are, that are trash. And oftentimes you'll launch into something you didn't mean to say. And so one thing that a friend of mine told his candidate. Was every single time you get asked a question, just take a three second pause.

[01:36:18] And like, you'll feel uncomfortable, but it will more likely have them go, wow, he's really thoughtful. And what are they going to do? Print the pause in the newspaper you're talking to? Obviously not. So the people who read it, which are like the 99. 9 percent of people you're speaking to right now, not the reporter, they're only going to know your collected thought and you're going to look real good.

[01:36:39] And so I have tried to practice in my speech to go along with my breathing. A slowness and an intentionality because my brain goes, Oh, you better say something now and it better be good. And I'm just like, let me think about this for a second in my own head. And it just has allowed me to be much more succinct and [01:37:00] less verbose, which is not always easy because like you, I just want to explain everything.

[01:37:04] But my thing isn't to fill in the space. It's to not be misunderstood. And that's very interesting. I. Hate the idea of being misunderstood. And that goes back to the fear of judgment. I don't want to be disapproved of my approval. Seeking is actually disapproval avoidance. I don't know why, why I do know why, because of the childhood stuff, obviously, but that is so interesting that my verbosity is misunderstanding related rather than like.

[01:37:33] Discomfort at, at, you know, conflict and these things can look different. So if you're, you know, relating to this in any way, it might be for a totally different reason, but to answer your question, now that the verbosity has just been expanded even more, I am asking all sorts of questions and it's so interesting because the way I've been explaining it is as though the most important things are being shaken right now.

[01:37:57] And I'm like, actually, that's not true. [01:38:00] Because the relationship with God is only deepening. The family is awesome. Marriage, kids, everything's great there, but it's me and my identity and my business and how I operate in the world. Being seen, that is all being, you know, thrown asunder or whatever the, the correct phrasing there is.

[01:38:20] And so the, you know what, I'm going to have to just double check that. Okay, let me get my vocab, thesaurus thing out.

[01:38:27] Heston: Fact checkers, can we get, can we, we need, we need the AP, we need associated press out here with a fact check, please. Thank you.

[01:38:33] Curt: Yeah Imagine that imagine believing anything these days. That's a big problem. By the way believing like a truth Becomes impossible in an age where everything is fake

[01:38:47] so anyway, that's neither here nor there, but the questions that are being asked are much more, like I said before, like, God, what would you have me do? And sometimes the thing that I'm really glad somebody [01:39:00] said at my getaway was sometimes I don't want to do those things and it's like, Ooh, that's good because if I don't want to do them, they must not be coming for me and I'm going to do them because it's what God said to and he will give me strength to do that.

[01:39:13] But it's really like, who, like, who am I? Dude, like who am I in my business? Who am I? Is this the business God's called for me? Should I do something that I feel more comfortable doing so that I can have more longevity doing it? Should I do something totally different? And all of that is my role as provider.

[01:39:36] My role in day-to-day, I mean, I love working dude. I love working, so that's a huge part of my identity. But what do I do in that work? How do I serve? Am I doing my best work? I am? Am I obligated to do what I am gifted at just because I'm gifted at it? Do I, do I owe the world that gift or are there other [01:40:00] gifts that God wants me to use?

[01:40:01] At this time in this season, and I've had this discussion with my mentor. He's like, look, man, I'm really gifted at X, Y, Z. But God called me away from that because like, that's not what he has for me right now. And I can serve in so many other ways. And so I'm just like. Oh, but I'm like, my, my thing has been, I need to be everything to everyone, which is what I was saying about the phases and the stages.

[01:40:24] One, two, three, I've got to be all of that. And then I'm like, well, I'm going to let people down. Or like, if I talk to a guy, he's like, Hey, can you help me? I'm like, actually I only deal with these guys. And he's like, Oh, you let me down, bro. Like disapproval. And so all of this is like, well, you're good at this, but you're good at this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

[01:40:41] You better just do all of it because you owe it to everybody, and screw you if you can't take it, you weakling. That's my inner monologue, is do everything, and if you even break for a moment, you are the, like, lowest, filthiest, weakest so and so, because you know if you just put your back [01:41:00] into it, you can do anything.

[01:41:03] And that is the weakness of the Type A... Really skilled hard charging person is you'll always think you can do it and that takes you away from God So that's where I'm at. Can I sit still with God and Take action for him, but also like he gave me a family. He needs me to provide and he's been to protect What does that look like and how can I not care about?

[01:41:30] If I don't do every little single thing on my like rigid habits, because the habits for me become prisons, of course I can do that. Of course I can do a hundred burpees every single day on top of my like custom made training program. Of course I can do that waking up at 4am every day. Of course I can do that not sleeping in on the weekends.

[01:41:47] Of course I can do that doing everything I'm doing because I literally can. But is it good for me? Well, I don't know. I don't think about that because I can do it. Stop being a pussy like that is my Self talk [01:42:00] and that has gotten in the way of me doing what God's wanting me to do, which is even just being gentle and loving for my family.

[01:42:06] And if I throw this all away because I think I can do everything because I'm so hardcore, I got that into business. I was doing all this marketing and advertising stuff that was not me at all so that I could make more money on this. Rather than, hey guys, here's my story. I'm a light house. If you like me, come get my light.

[01:42:24] That's what I need to be doing. That's who I am. That's my story. It's what God's given me to share. And I was like, join me and give me money now. Cause like you're an idiot and you suck and you have to get saved by me. And that was just like ruining everything. And I felt like I was rotting. So anyway, that was like a long ass question or answer.

[01:42:41] And I know there's a bunch of stuff that you were sort of like. Peeking at because I know it was like so good and you're just like dude so many

[01:42:47] Heston: no, I,

[01:42:48] Curt: this So anyway, I don't know anything come up for you

[01:42:51] Heston: your, your story is, is enough because like I'm sitting here, like, because we're having [01:43:00] this conversation dude, like your story was, was enough you know, and I don't think you needed to do anything different other than just continue to cast your net and try to catch some fish, dude.

[01:43:11] Curt: I know

[01:43:12] Heston: I, and, and I, and I know you lost, I know you lost like some money.

[01:43:17] And I, I know how frustrating that can be because I, you called me out on something. And I don't know if I've talked to you about this.

[01:43:24] Curt: Let's go

[01:43:25] Heston: but like, I come from a completely different economic background than you.

[01:43:31] I have a tendency to throw money at things because I think that it'll solve my problem. Even if I know, like in my heart, there's zero intention of me applying my, my effort into fixing it. I'll just like spend the money and I don't even expect the result. It's just like, there's just like a glimmer or like a glimpse of something that crosses my mind.

[01:43:55] And it's like, Oh, I need to hire a coach. I need to hire this guy. I need to hire this [01:44:00] person or, or buy this service or buy X, Y, or Z. Right. And it's like, I will do that and not even like follow, like, I don't, I don't know, it's just, and so, so something else that you said, because I just lost my train of thought because for whatever reason, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[01:44:21] Curt: You were going to say something about spending money and different socioeconomic backgrounds and not

[01:44:27] Heston: I know, I know that you probably felt that loss pretty hard. I would imagine considering like the, like,

[01:44:36] Curt: that. That's funny. Actually. I do this all the time. Like this is the second time this year. I've spent that amount of money on something that didn't work because I was looking for the thing. I was like, oh, this is it. Magic pill, let's go. And oh, I'm such a sucker for magic pills that I think appeal to me.

[01:44:54] This I always look at though, especially in the last year as like, okay, God, you've got my [01:45:00] attention. Like that was necessary for me to go through that. And I look at my bank account and I'm like, that was like comfort. Why did you do that? And so, yes, it hurts, but I think I'm trying to give it to God.

[01:45:14] But anyway, I interrupted. So

[01:45:15] Heston: No, no, no. So thank you for bringing me back there. I'm saying that I just, your, your story wasn't, was enough and you didn't need to hire these fancy gurus because what you were doing was already working. You,

[01:45:28] Curt: wasn't working fast enough, bro.

[01:45:30] Heston: right. And so that's, and so that's, that's the thought, right. And there's. Like, I love watching Alex Hormozy, specifically, specifically because the best businesses, yes, the fashion style, and because he says the best businesses outlast the owners.

[01:45:51] Like, the, some, the owners, like, some, like most of the times. Most of the time, owners who build amazing businesses never see how successful they [01:46:00] truly get. So, like, if I were to ask you, like, right now, like, if you were to, you know, live a nice, beautiful, long life, this was the work that you did, and it got bigger after you passed, like, would that, would you consider that a victory?

[01:46:13] Like, your coursework was, became common core through every classroom in, in North America.

[01:46:20] But what if, what if boys during health class, you know, cause we have a health class here in the United States, what if they took emotional intelligence, conflict resolution, anger management, and all of the stuff that your course, and they literally did that in a classroom before they left high school and met women and had children and they already were prepared.

[01:46:44] that

[01:46:44] Curt: then we would be living in the new Jerusalem, but yeah, no, that, that's I mean, the success for this is twofold, right? Because as I'm sure a lot of other you know, entrepreneurs can understand there is the massive, like I'm, I'm just a. They, they've got [01:47:00] different study or not studies. They've got different quizzes you can do.

[01:47:04] Like I'm a quick start in the Colby a index. I'm a, like a visionary in the whatever. I'm not an integrator at all. I'm just like, here's an idea, let's start it. And then like, Oh, I hate doing it. I just want to start it again. But that puts me in a place where maybe that doesn't put me in a place, but, but separately from that, I'm always in a place where I'm like, I just, I gotta make sure that like, you know, the, the bills are paid.

[01:47:27] But I want this to be massive. And I feel as though for a long time in some of my other businesses, I was always on the precipice like, ah, bills are paid, but there's not a lot extra. And like, I really have this big vision, but if I dip into this and you know, we're in eight, nine months into this particular version of the prod of the program here and it's been awesome, but that fear still exists, even though I've got a bit of a runway, even though there's guys joining every month, I'm just like, Well, I don't know, like, I really got to just shore up.[01:48:00]

[01:48:00] I've got to make sure that I'm like safe. And that's the feeling like the financial resources for me are a form of comfort and safety that I don't have to worry about having a house or getting a job or like my family suffering. And so that's always at the forefront, no matter how much, like I increased my personal budget.

[01:48:20] I'm always like, Oh, I'm not spending a lot. Cause I'm really good with money, but like, Oh my goodness. At any point I could. This could stop and that's so weird. Like bro, it's been working for like a long time. In fact, I've now been working for myself for like 11 years and not once have I not made it work.

[01:48:37] And I praise God for that. I was thinking about that this morning. Like, Lord, you know, give us today our daily bread. Like how about you literally like give me these weird contracts when I need the most and then like allow me to sell these businesses at the weirdest times when I need it most. So like you've been providing bread forever.

[01:48:53] But that comes into conflict with the massive vision. Cause I'm like, Ooh, I need to have a bigger base [01:49:00] and then I need to grow. And is that successful? Is that, does that mean it lasts forever? Or am I going to be, am I going to be satisfied when I've just got enough to make me and my family comfortable and then I'll do like what I actually want to do.

[01:49:12] So like. All of this, yes, my goal is that everybody in the Western speaking world who's a father will have eventually gone through a dad work course, like 50 years from now, it's going to be as ubiquitous as what to expect when you're expecting, like, Hey, what, what dad work course did you do not have you done a dad work course that's the, the, you know, man, like I want the success now in business. That's why it's so hard for this to be the business. Yes. This is like the most personal soul wrenching vulnerable thing I could possibly do. And in fact, I hate that it's a business because we shouldn't be. A society of men who have lacked fathers.

[01:49:52] We shouldn't be a society of men who don't know how to lead their families. Well, and so here I am capitalizing on that horrible fact [01:50:00] with my own personal story, while trying to live it out as just a normal dude who doesn't know anything and then sharing about it. Like what kind of sick person does that for a business?

[01:50:09] It's not, it's not right. It's almost not right, bro. Except we live in a world where so many men need. The hope that comes from my story, and it's not because I've done anything. It's because you need to know that if you're the guy listening to the part of the conversation, we're like, Hey, we should, you know, how are we going to kill ourselves if you're there now?

[01:50:27] You're like, Oh, I can't see the end of the tunnel, but Kurt can Heston can. And so like, I'm going like, well, I can't stop. So I, like, I don't know, man, like, I don't think about this the way that I might in any other normal business, if I want to carry it on or whatever, this is like, it's so just me and we are.

[01:50:46] Always our least we are the least capable of seeing the perspective in our own lives. And so I think that's coloring the way I see this as a business. Does that make sense?

[01:50:56] Heston: No, it makes total sense. I, I, I would agree with you [01:51:00] and I I disagree with your assessment that it shouldn't be this way

[01:51:08] Curt: Please continue.

[01:51:11] Heston: because I don't, I was really satisfying sound by the way. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, dude, that's, that's, that was good. That was really good. Is that a, is that a Stanley? Do you, do you guys have those up there? Stanley's all the white women, like bang, bang them together, like on the walls and stuff.

[01:51:37] Curt: this is a this is from Costco. I don't know.

[01:51:40] Heston: Perfect. Okay,

[01:51:41] Curt: Thermo flask, bro.

[01:51:42] Heston: Perfect. It's perfect. I disagree because the, the, the world is the way the world is, you know, and. And should it be different? I don't know. Maybe it shouldn't be different. Maybe it is supposed to be this way [01:52:00] Like and and it is I feel like We're gonna you know, we can verge into you know, swerve into conspiracy territory.

[01:52:06] It's a part of the plan It's yeah, it's it's the truth. Exactly. It's a part of the plan you send men to fight two world wars A ton of them die, the women have to step up into the production roles, and then when the men come back, the women are disgruntled because now they have to be at home with the children, and then the men are trying to fight for their place back in society, and then you have, you know, the sexual revolution, you have, it's like, it's, you can look through the past 100, 200 years of history, and everything that is occurring right now is accounted for, and it makes sense.

[01:52:41] And so, you know, Like your business should exist because of men want any hope of protecting their, their wives and children from the inevitable, I don't know, maybe there is no protection, but like in the meat, like that's like. In the meantime, if you [01:53:00] want to deliver an experience to your wife and kids, and you don't know how to do that, there should be someone out there in the void shouting out, like, I kind of know how to do this.

[01:53:11] There's a financial investment and it is not 31, 200. You know what I'm saying? Like it was, that came out to about like 11 grand a year. And you're like, what you ask of people is not even that it's, Over half of like, it's like less than half of that. So I just, I disagree. And I'm, I'm glad that it was there because when I, I needed it, it was that

[01:53:39] Curt: Hmm. Ooh. Yeah. Okay. You know what? Like I, I, I should rephrase slightly insofar as I just hate that the conditions exist for this to be. And I feel uncomfortable because the ideal is elders and community

[01:53:57] Heston: Yes.

[01:53:57] Curt: and your fathers in the community should be doing [01:54:00] what I'm doing now and they're not.

[01:54:01] Heston: Yes. A

[01:54:02] Curt: So anyway

[01:54:03] Heston: no. I, and I, and I agree with you on that. It's like, you are a man and responsibility is a glorious. Responsibility. Like it's a, it's a, like a burden that we should strive to take on more fully every passing day. And, and I think the way, you know, you talk about this every now and then, like the way that that changes over time.

[01:54:27] It like might not be appropriate for a 70 or 80 year old man to like, you know, hop in a car and drive, you know, to a men's group and like, try to lead something. Cause like whatever reason. Right. But he can at least like disseminate wisdom and information amongst the people that he has is at least family with the men in the family, you know, go to family gatherings, stuff like that.

[01:54:47] Like you and your grandfather, like smoke cigars and sit and talk. Right. Like I would, I would like you expect and hope that. Older men want to get around the younger men and give them whatever [01:55:00] wisdom and like discernment and be able to deliver that to us so that we can do that to our sons and to our brothers and pull the other men out of the void.

[01:55:11] I think that's like why your, I think the program that you provide Encourages that in the guys that participate, like, like Steve, for example, like is talking to guys in his area, his workers and, you know, pastor and, and that like, and before, like, I don't think he'd probably ever want to do that. Right.

[01:55:32] Like,

[01:55:32] Curt: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a like multi, a couple things come up. Number one is like, I'm always so excited to meet an older man who's willing to do this, which I did in Colorado. And I'm pursuing that relationship very closely because like that is so freaking valuable if you can get a man who like gets it and is willing to speak into younger men's lives.

[01:55:52] So, you know, if you are that man, go do that more. And if you need a man like that, go find one and encourage him. But isn't it interesting? [01:56:00] Retirement. Like that is. In my opinion, a misordered life when you work so hard that you wear yourself out such that you wish to do nothing when you're older. Is that how we were designed?

[01:56:15] I mean, it says again in Ecclesiastes to it, like, be glad. Of your toilsome labor and I think like for me that goes into like when you're in until you're too old to work And I think about you know, Who was it like jacob israel being you know Blind or whatever and he's not working at that point. His sons are caring for him, but he's at home But like he was probably working right up to the day where he could like no longer see or move and that's just how it was.

[01:56:41] And then you get taken care of by the family, but you're still doing a job. You still have an important role as a patriarch to lead and guide and point to those the, the, the markers along the way. I can't remember what they call them, but like, don't move the boundary stones of your forefathers. But imagine our envy, [01:57:00] our covetousness, our greed, our, our wars these days, like I've talked to you about, like the reason that financial and business success is so interesting to so many men these days is because I think it is a proxy for war outside of sports, which, you know, you can't be a professional sports player unless you're one of like a few thousand in the world, but you get so much of your value from making this money and you're like, I'm such a man and I'm getting my value because my dad didn't love me and all these other things.

[01:57:25] And then you get to the point where you've got it, you're like, shoot, I'm like, that sucked because I worked like 8, 000 percent and so now instead of working like 50 percent when I'm old, I'm going to work like a negative 8, 000 percent because I'm just so over burnt out. And that's a very interesting, I think, probably piece of wisdom there for all of us coming up, working and building a thing like legacies for our families.

[01:57:50] Is, is the work you're doing right now going to allow you to stay fruitfully engaged in commerce or otherwise useful toil [01:58:00] labor when you're 60, 70, 80, or will you want to just shut down? Because we have lost such a great resource in the older men who are no longer willing to engage. So just food for thought.

[01:58:11] Heston: I find that really interesting because for whatever reason, this just popped into my head is like seeing married couples in retirement, like doing completely separate things and living completely separate lives. It's like when, when the husband comes home and he's in retirement mode, it's like the wife doesn't even want to be around him because all of the years of neglect and like, like not caring and the resentment that must've built up.

[01:58:34] And like, you know, going out and wanting to conquer and destroy and in business and bring home something, because it's not necessarily what it's not the spoils and what the spoils do for the family. Right. It's like, Like the, I feel like a lot of guys focus on, like I said, the spoils and not what the, what's, how the family gets [01:59:00] to like enjoy like what he does.

[01:59:02] And it's like this big celebration when he comes back and he's like fully integrated back into the family unit. If that makes sense, rather than it just being like. Like passing a check over his shoulder and being like, yep, here's the money like I know you guys want me around I know you need help with the kids and like, you know I know son and daughter want like a father figure or whatever But like I'm too busy making money for us and I'm doing it for you guys.

[01:59:25] So like leave me the fuck alone But it's it's really it's I see a lot of that especially like in and I won't say my family specifically because It's not just my family, but I have noticed that in like the boomer generation that the men retire and that the, the wives like almost want nothing to do with the husbands.

[01:59:47] Yeah.

[01:59:47] Curt: Yeah, there, there's, sorry, there's one thing that came to mind and again Ecclesiastes because it was just so good for me. He talks about like, you know, having blessings or having like [02:00:00] financial reward basically is great. And it's like a gift from God, but it's a separate gift from God to be able to enjoy your wealth.

[02:00:09] And I was like, Ooh, dang, like how many of us lack that gift? It's always more and more and more. We can't actually sit and enjoy it. And if we're not enjoying it, then what the frick are we doing it for? Right? Like it does. It's, it's meaningless, as he says in the book. Like it's, yeah, there's just, I'm praying that.

[02:00:28] You know, I have some resources because it says to be a good man. I've got to leave an inheritance and house and wealth and all that kind of stuff. And I want to do that here in the Pacific Northwest where, you know, there's just, you've seen it. It's crazy. Anyway, so like I want to do that, but I also want to have the slowness to enjoy and not need more.

[02:00:50] I don't want to envy. I don't want to covet. I just want to be like, thank you, Lord.

[02:00:54] Heston: I saw a squirrel yesterday and it kind of like got me thinking a [02:01:00] little bit like how, how excited, like is a squirrel that finds the. Like an acorn and they like grab it and they stuff it in their cheek and they like run down the street to like what I imagine is just like a squirrel wife and squirrel kids.

[02:01:16] And he's like, look what I brought home for us. And they're all so excited, not because of. You know, like I'm sure because of what, like the dad has brought home, but also the fact that the dad is home and he's like there to sit and enjoy and celebrate with all of them. And I think that really ties into like, you're like, eat, drink, and be, be glad to be Mary.

[02:01:38] It's like work hard for sure. Like action, of course. Like. God, I don't believe God expects us to be idle. I think he expects expect like in Genesis, like the man will, again, I don't memorize the scripture by the, by the sweat of his brow, right. By the sweat of his brow, the man will work and, and earn like basically I, [02:02:00] what I am, I'm trying to remember is like earn what he gets basically like.

[02:02:04] Doing so in a Christ like way for the good of his family for the good like good for the good of his neighbors he will like reap what he sows and I Just like think about that a lot it's just like when I come home from doing whatever I'm doing outside of the house Am I bringing home something that benefits my family and am I in the celebration of like the excitement of that thing and then like being there with them and experiencing that together, or am I like thinking about the next thing that needs to be done?

[02:02:38] And I'm not even like fully enjoying my time with my family, you know, that was, that, and that's like, I saw, like, I saw this black squirrel because black squirrels are rare here. But when you see, so when you see him, it's kind of like, Oh, there's a black squirrel. And that's about as exciting as it is. But I saw that and I was kind of just like, it's like, Oh, cool.

[02:02:56] That must mean that there's like a family of black squirrels around here. I like, [02:03:00] I wonder if you like found something and

[02:03:02] no, dude, there's, there's this meme, there's this meme that I saw the other day where it's like a squirrel and like night armor. Here, let me see if I can pull it up. It's a squirrel in night armor, and it goes along the lines of the squirrel that you, you know, that ran out in front of you on the street.

[02:03:19] So, you swerve to avoid a squirrel. Unknown to you, the squirrel pledges a life debt to you. In your darkest hour, the squirrel arrives. And it's like a squirrel in like armor with a shield. That's like, I hope that, you know, that's true. I hope that's true.

[02:03:34] Curt: Speaking of having a childlike attitude towards all things, hey, the squirrel's man, let's go.

[02:03:40] Heston: I, dude, I, you, you, and I think you've shared this with us, but like, you felt like you were like three years old for a long time. Like, dude, I still have this and it's something that I really enjoy about myself is just this childlike sense of humor that I have. And I attribute that to, I don't know, maybe longing for my [02:04:00] childhood sometimes.

[02:04:01] Curt: Yeah.

[02:04:03] Heston: Yeah. I don't know. There's just like something, there's just like something about it that just like, it's just funny to me, you know?

[02:04:07] Curt: Yeah, no, I think that's it's good to Love that because it's hard for me to like that kind of thing I'm, just like so serious all the time and when he says that, you know, the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these i'm like What, what parts of such as these, like, like literally children, like innocent, like misbehaving, like what part of children does that mean?

[02:04:31] And I've just like had to question that. I don't have an answer for you, but I'm like, what do you mean one such as these? How do I have childlike faith? So I think that's actually probably a blessing that you have access to that rather than, you know, cynicism, which I feel is in place of that for me.

[02:04:48] Heston: I think, I think it's for me, it's hard to, because my, I think my wife would say that I'm a serious person most of the time. But I do feel like I have a tendency to [02:05:00] joke about things or find humor in things or kind of have this like childish nature still about myself. And I think that I probably noticed that more than it's actually true, but like, I just noticed when it happens, if that makes sense.

[02:05:15] And one of the questions that I asked myself is like, is that something that I have to iron out? Or is that like a part of me that is actually like useful and like people enjoy and like brings like lightheartedness to situations. And, you know, because. Like you said, like, like such as these, like, are we supposed to be child childish?

[02:05:38] Or are we supposed to be child like, where I think that there's like a level of just unassuming, like having an unassuming nature, like viewing the world and kind of just being like, huh, that's interesting. And just like being like, yep, God's real, Christ is Lord. Just move on. And like, it's, you don't think, think it's interesting because like, you know, when you talk about the truth, the [02:06:00] conspiracy, right.

[02:06:01] It's like, I don't have to answer these questions. Like these are not thoughts that I need to have. God is real. Christ is Lord. I'm here to carry out his will for my life. And like, that's all I really need to know, you know, like, and I think that

[02:06:15] Curt: that's huge.

[02:06:16] Heston: people that, and I'm speaking for myself, people that long for like a sense of control over their lives need answers for every question that they have.

[02:06:24] Curt: Yeah, there's no mystery left.

[02:06:26] Heston: There's no mystery left. And because I think that just comes from a place of just like hurt. That they've been hurt in the past. They don't know why something's happening. It was never explained to them or the people that they like wanted the explanation from never gave it to them. So they like want to find out.

[02:06:40] And I think that's where like the rise of intellectualism and like atheism kind of comes about is your parents hurt you. How could like God ever love you because if your parents hurt you and God is just like another parent like He's just gonna give you more hurt Instead of like coming to understand that like the hierarchy of things and the way that the world, you [02:07:00] know

[02:07:00] Curt: Yeah, it's so interesting that both good and bad fathers point children to Christ and the bad ones just give their kids a lot more suffering on the way there. Like that, that's what I have seen to be true. So like they're everyone, everyone who I interact with, which is like, you know, guys who are wanting to be better.

[02:07:19] Usually all of them have a father sized hole in their heart. Dad didn't love them the right way. Dad didn't show up the right way. And it could even just be perceived. So I want to be clear, like your dad doesn't have to be a bad guy. You could just be like, oh, he didn't give me what I wanted when I was six and that made me feel bad.

[02:07:34] And that's, that's real because that impacts how you feel today. And so in that case. You long for him to be the man he could never be. And that seemed like that is tragic. If you don't know God, that's what it felt like to me. I was like, Oh, I've got to be that man. And I tried and I was that to an extent, but I kept letting myself down.

[02:07:53] And so unbeknownst to me, thankfully he revealed it in his, you know, infinite [02:08:00] mercy and grace that he can fill that hole completely, but for a good father, which I hope to be. I just want to point them to the love of the father by being as close to proximity to the love of the father as I can. And so I think both ways point to the father and he has chosen those, he's foreknown, so he's going to pick who he's going to pick.

[02:08:22] But I think like, as fathers, we can give our children a much greater chance of knowing his love for longer and living a much more blessed life. If we point them there through our actions rather than our failure of action, which I think so many guys that I talked to have.

[02:08:39] Heston: It excites me to see other men like raising their children like while those those like fathers love like love the Lord And it excites me to, to think about what the, what the future like would look like if more people just loved God and had dads that loved God. [02:09:00] like, that's, it's like something that is like genuinely like very exciting for me.

[02:09:04] And I hope that I do good enough, good enough of a job for my wife and my kids that when they are older, that it's something that They want and need to have in their life in order to feel, I don't know. It's, it's really interesting. But I hope that when, when my kids are older and they, they saw how I loved the Lord and how I served the Lord and how I loved them, that like when they are away from me, they, they feel my love and they also feel the Lord's love and they don't ever, they feel like just like warm, you know, and, and just embraced.

[02:09:45] And I hope that that's like a gift that I, I, I strive to give them.

[02:09:48] Curt: So one of the things that comes up for me with that is on this Colorado mastermind, they were talking about basically celebrating all the biblical holidays or celebration festivals, I should say. And [02:10:00] one of the reasons, one of the multitude of reasons, it's awesome, I cannot wait to implement these, but it's gotta be slow process, otherwise everyone's gonna think I'm nuts.

[02:10:08] But one of the reasons was so that when they leave the home, they associate peak joy with family and you as a father and Jesus and celebrating the Lord and everything he's given us. Like if we can make. Every day or every Sabbath or every, you know, celebration, every feast, every festival, like peak joy in our family, in our household, then they'll always remember that feeling if they were to walk away from something, if they were to move away, if they were to walk away from the Lord, whatever like sensory experience they have will always lead them back to like, Oh, that was peak joy.

[02:10:46] And I'm not joyful right now. Maybe there was something to that. I remember my dad loving me here. I remember the feeling of just like, oh man, this is beautiful. So that's one of the things that i'm going to be exploring and as we make our [02:11:00] sabbath a sabbath How can we make that joyful as we consider celebrating these things?

[02:11:05] Which interestingly he said there's seven biblical feasts other than the sabbath and they all Point to Christ and the whole story of those seven together points to like everything about Christ and that's like mind blown So anyway, that's really interesting Definitely go follow Jeremy prior of family teams.

[02:11:21] He's been blowing my mind lately

[02:11:23] Heston: Do you, do you like the work that he does?

[02:11:26] Curt: Yeah I love it. I

[02:11:28] Heston: I was gonna, I was gonna sign up for a couple, like he has a class or a course on this website. I checked that out when

[02:11:34] Curt: mean, you should just listen to the podcasts I do with them on the dad work podcast, dad. org slash podcast. That's where all the good stuff is. But yeah, I, that's who the, that's who the masterminds through the seven day family is, of course I share with a couple of guys as well about the Sabbath over the last couple of days.

[02:11:51] So yeah, man, definitely encourage everyone to check him out.

[02:11:55] Heston: There was something like just before we like wrap up and head off. Cause my kids are about to wake up from their [02:12:00] naps.

[02:12:00] But there was something I heard on a podcast, you know, Chris, Chris Williamson, he does like a podcast on YouTube.

[02:12:06] He's just like a, I don't know, just kind of like a normie, I guess. Although he has like kind of like big name conspiracy people on, but he said that there's like this, there's like this theory or like syndrome or something where. Young guys think they would have done better off in the medieval times than they're doing right now.

[02:12:27] And, and, and they think that they would have been Genghis Khan instead of like cannon fodder, peasant number 100, 1 million, 200, 000.

[02:12:35] Curt: Yeah.

[02:12:36] Heston: And I, I, I don't know why I thought of you when, when he said that, but I, I wonder if that like, kind of like feeds into just like the loneliness thing that we talked about at the beginning of like this two and a half hour conversation was. Like guys think that they're just like way cooler and better off than like everybody else. And they're just like fine being alone because they would have been [02:13:00] Genghis Khan bro. Like if it was the medieval times, instead of getting like malaria and like shitting themselves everywhere. And like, you know what I mean?

[02:13:09] Like

[02:13:09] Curt: That is so real dude, that is so real and here's the thing like I'm really grateful that Natalie's like really grounded in reality like this Because I honestly dude, I think the same thing I'm like, well, I obviously would have been royal like not royalty, but like I would have been like I would I

[02:13:24] Heston: I would've been a knight, I would've lived forever.

[02:13:27] Curt: Would have been like a night or an earl or something.

[02:13:30] I would have been, and look, probably because, you know, I'm, I'm a smart guy. So maybe I would have, but like, that's my, that is for sure. I'm not going to be like Genghis Khan. I don't like, I have no, I have no hope of grandeur like that, but an earl or a knight, sure, but Natalie's like. We would be peasants.

[02:13:45] What are you talking about? I'm like, oh, oh, right. And it's mostly like the family history thing, right? Like, yeah, I guess if I look at it that way, for sure, we would have been in the muck. We would have been like what is it? Monty Python. Got some lovely filth over here. You [02:14:00] know, old woman. I'm not

[02:14:01] Heston: no, no horses. Just coconuts. Yeah, just like me following you with coconuts. It's like, I

[02:14:08] Curt: told them we already got one. Yes, exactly. I love that movie by the way

[02:14:12] Heston: Yes. Is that the only movie you've ever seen?

[02:14:15] Curt: Dude I grew up only speaking in movie quotes So until about 2008, I could recite like any movie that I've ever seen. And that's like a weird storing thing. My, my sons can do this too. But my dad was epic at it. So my dad and I would just have like movie quote discussions, like Austin Powers and like Jim Carrey movies and Adam Sandler movies.

[02:14:37] So anything,

[02:14:38] Heston: you like Dumb and Dumber?

[02:14:39] Curt: Yeah, for sure. That was, that was one of the ones that I only saw a couple of times though. So I'm not gonna, you know, be able to do that, but yeah. There's, there's lots, there's lots of stuff that we can, we can jam on. But yeah, anything new, no. I feel like there's something else, but yeah, that, that is right.

[02:14:53] Most people think that they're better than they are, including myself. But if you just like look at your family [02:15:00] socioeconomic station right now and realize that it was even less upward mobility, then like for sure you would have been like in the filth and that's hilarious. I love that. That's a theory.

[02:15:10] Heston: That's like, that's like a thing that this guy with like 1. 5 million subscribers on YouTube, like was talking about with somebody. I'll send you the clip. It was really funny. Yeah.

[02:15:20] Curt: Sweet.

[02:15:21] Heston: Yeah. That's all I got. That's all I got for you, dude. Thanks for hanging out. I appreciate it.

[02:15:24] Curt: Yeah, this has been really fun. I've got a call with a guy in 15 minutes about potentially joining us, so

[02:15:30] Heston: We'll tell him that he should.

[02:15:34] Curt: Yeah, I mean I am always shocked and I mean like I know this is the exact same like heart as what we were just Talking about like I would have been Genghis Khan But I'm like are you like you literally just got on a call with me and I just laid out Exactly how to change like save your marriage in life And like you ghost me, like what, why?

[02:15:54] And I know that's like, people don't trust me because they haven't seen enough of my content. People don't know [02:16:00] for sure that I can help them. People have financial you know, disadvantages that they can't, you know, buy this thing. But. I know for sure there's guys who like are on payment plans and they've like had to go on the credit card because it's so freaking important.

[02:16:11] I had to go and treat this like a full time job because I was losing my family, I was losing everything. How could you not join? Am I, are we perfect? I mean pretty close to it, but no. But like dude, the, the fact that you could literally... Not waste 30, 000 or do nothing and then regret it for the rest of your life.

[02:16:30] Can you imagine, can you imagine if you're like on a call with guys like, Hey, here's like a year's worth of work. It might, you know, a few weeks, a few months, whatever. And you're like, I'd rather just like spend my whole life regretting the loss of my family. I think I'll pick that door curd. Thank you for your time though.

[02:16:45] So anyway, you got to trust me. Obviously I'm not going to begrudge you. There's guys out there who are better for other people, but I am always curious. I'm always hopeful. I'm like, if you don't join me. Join someone else. Like, take action. Don't just sit.

[02:16:56] Heston: I feel like I can say this with like high [02:17:00] confidence, but there's nobody out there that cares more about the guys than you do. Because I feel like, I feel like I have seen that firsthand. You're welcome.

[02:17:14] Curt: Well, thank you. Man. .

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