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My guest today is Sathiya Sam.

We go deep talking about: 

  • The serious negative consequences of pornography use and addiction on men’s lives,
  • Why men turn to porn in the first place,
  • Addiction vs. Use,
  • How to have deep conversations about sex and intimacy in your relationship to build a transcendent connection,
  • Sathiya’s personal journey through pornography addiction and recovery,
  • The power of learning to love yourself, and
  • How to talk to your kid about porn and sex.

Sathiya Sam is a coach and speaker that helps men live with confidence and integrity. A recovered addict himself, Sathiya is the creator of DeepClean™ – a research-based and Bible-backed system for overcoming porn addiction. DeepClean™ has helped everyone from college students to medical doctors regain control of their lives and walk in greater levels of freedom. He is married to his lovely wife Shaloma and based out of Toronto, Canada.

Find Sathiya online at:

Website: www.sathiyasam.com

Free Recovery Guide: www.ultimaterecoveryguide.com

Unleash The Man Within Podcast: www.sathiyasam.com/podcast

Facebook: www.facebook.com/sathiyamesam

Instagram: www.instagram.com/sathiyamesam

Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the Dad.Work podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of Dad.Work. Men, I am interested to hear your initial thoughts on this podcast. Did you not want to click on it? Are you extra interested in it? Where did you land on the spectrum? Because today we're going to be talking about pornography and pornography addiction, and some of the consequences that it has on the lives of men and boys. My guest today is Sathiya Sam, and we go deep talking about the serious negative consequences of pornography use and addiction on men's lives. Why men turn to porn in the first place, addiction versus use, how to have deep conversations about sex and intimacy in your relationship to build a transcendent connection. Sathiya's personal journey through pornography addiction and recovery, the power of learning to love yourself, and how to talk to your kids about porn, and sex. Sathiya Sam is a coach and speaker that helps men live with confidence and integrity. A recovered addict himself, Sathiya is the creator of deep clean, a research based and Bible backed system for overcoming porn addiction. Deep Clean has helped everyone from college students to medical doctors regain control of their lives and walk in greater levels of freedom. He's married to his lovely wife, shalom and based out of Toronto, Canada. To find more about Sathiya, you can visit his website, SathiyaSam.com. That's sathiyasam.com you can pick up his free ebook at ultimaterecoveryguide.com He has a podcast called Unleash The Man Within and you can find him on Facebook and Instagram with username sathiyamesam. And again, this one is something we don't talk about nearly enough. And there is a propensity, I think for a lot of men to brush this aside as though it's not a big deal. And you may have heard the Bible back part of Sathiya's bio there. And I want to touch on that very briefly, because this is not a conversation that is steeped in religion or faith background whatsoever. It's very practical. And I know there are some listeners who are Christian, and you will learn a lot from this, obviously, and there's some listeners who are not Christian, and you will still learn the same things that I learned in this podcast. So I come at this from the point of view that there's there's really no good use, and no good reason to be to be watching pornography. And the reason for that is because as we'll get into in a minute, all of these negative consequences and and whether or not it's running your life, or you're addicted to it, it just takes from every other part of your relationship and the power you have as a man, I don't think that this is the only place to get what you're looking for. If you're trying to get something out of porn, I think there are ways to sit with the discomfort of whatever you're feeling, whether you use it to numb out whether you use it to feel when you can't feel in any other part of your life. There are ways to go about doing the inner work required to get to a place where you no longer seek this out because it's not real. And that's a very important point that I think is going to be covered more and more as we get into things like Facebook and meta and the metaverse. And, you know, maybe there's some benefits in there. But my personal opinion is that we're getting to this place in this world where we are not interacting with reality. And porn use is one of those places. So I don't judge I don't think you need to, you know, quit cold turkey, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to do once in a while, like I don't have any judgments on it. And I just think there's a lot of good that can come from doing the work it takes to get very clear on why you use it, when you use it, how it makes you feel while and after you use it. And so this is just going to be a very broad, wide open conversation about the consequences and why men turned to it in the first place. And like I said, How to have these relate conversations with your intimate partner, and your kids because man, this is affecting a ton of kids. It's all over the place. You'll hear where Sathiya found pornography for the first time, which is just insane if you could find it where he found it, man, it's it's just everywhere. So all that being said, I just want to give a little bit of preamble because I know this is a loaded topic. And hopefully we do it justice here. We'll be certain to follow up on this kind of conversation in the future for sure. And we'd love to know what you think so find us on Facebook or Instagram. Check us out dad dot work and all the socials are either DadWork.Curt on Instagram or a daddotwork on Facebook. Alright, with all that out of the way, I hope that you learn something and enjoy this conversation with Sathiya Sam.

All right, I'm here. I'm live with Sophia Sam, we're going to talk to you today about a topic that should have a lot more airtime and a lot of people feel very uncomfortable with but man this is a huge one especially important for men, especially important for dads of boys. So Sathiya, thank you for coming on, man. I'm super excited to get into this with you.

Sathiya Sam 4:40

Yeah, thanks for having me, man. And let me just give you some props because this is not an easy subject and not a lot of people are open to talking about itself. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to dig in a little bit.

Curt Storring 4:50

Amazing. Yeah, no, I see this. You know, in my men's group I see this with the dads I work with as part of our community and Dad.Work Pornography Addiction is nothing to laugh about man like we We so often talk about drugs and alcohol. But this is the thing that's underneath, like a vast majority of men in the United States and Canada are watching this. And I was looking at some stats just before this. And I saw something that was like, I don't know, 6070 80% of guys watch it, like once a week, and I was like, Oh, my goodness, like, this is insane. Yeah. And so the thing that I want to do first of all, is like, set the stage for why men listening should even care about this, because they might be like, I watch porn a little bit. It's not that bad. But I want you to tell us like, what the actual consequences of pornography addiction are not in like a judging way. But just like, here's the facts. So do you have like some way to lay that out to give us a reason why it's so actual bad for us?

Sathiya Sam 5:40

Yeah, so I kind of categorize it into three arenas, Kurt. So there's the relational, there's the physical, and there's the spiritual. So relationally, the impact is becoming pretty significant. One study showed that porn consumption was likely to increase divorce rates by about 300%. So like, if you introduce porn, either the husband or the wife introduces it. Suddenly, like your rates of infidelity and chances of splitting up just they they spike. So I think that's a huge one. And we can we can dig into why a little bit, but essentially, you're introducing a third party into a relationship that's only meant to be between two parties. So that's usually where the relational breakdown starts. And, and you know, if you're not married, I mean, most people here are obviously, our parents, for sure, but maybe not necessarily married. But the impacts the same on a dating relationship or anything else. Physically, we don't have a direct correlation, physically, but we're able to read between the lines a little bit. So there's a book called The penis book, highly recommend your audience buys it. It's actually a great resource. It's got a big eggplant emoji on the front. And it's written by Dr. Aaron Spitz, who is the one of the world's leading urologist. So he shared some stats in the book that I've been, I've been trying to share as much as possible, because it was really insightful. But basically, the the prevalence of erectile dysfunction in men under the age of 40, in 2001, was 5%. And that sounds exactly like what you'd expect, like erectile dysfunction is kind of an old man's issue. And we've all seen the Viagra and Cialis commercials, we know how that stuff goes. Today, in 2021, ed rates in the same demographic guys 40 and under, is reported to be as high as 33%. Wow, 33%. So take that in for a minute, like, one in every three guys you meet under the age of 40, has had some experience with EDI, that's pretty alarming. And it started to increase around 2001. Because, of course, that was the rise of the Internet. But then the actual spike happens in 2007, when the smartphone started to become a little bit more mainstream. So that's what I mean, where you can kind of read between the lines and see what's going on here. But that kind of physical impact is it's significant. And you can just imagine the ripples of not being able to perform sexually at a young age, on your mental well being the health of the relationship, and somebody just overall outlook, I would say on life, all of those things factor in so the physical one is a little bit overlooked in this conversation, but very, very important. And the last thing is the spiritual and you know, I come from a Christian background, that's sort of my lens. But if you pull up, pull aside my religion, and let's just say that spirituality is more about finding purpose and meaning in life. When people are really engaged with porn on a regular basis, it is almost always accompanied by hopelessness, and powerlessness. And those two things literally suck the life out of somebody. And they certainly suck any kind of energy that you may have about your future future ambitions for dreams calling, making a difference in this world. And that's something we witness a lot in our clients here. So a bit of a long answer there. But hopefully that gives you a comprehensive overview of just how damaging pornography really can be.

Curt Storring 8:58

Yeah, thank you for giving those those stats in those facts, which is quite alarming. Yeah, that is just unbelievable. And and it makes perfect sense to how much of this is because of pain or trauma or something like that. And I guess this is where the sort of addiction part of it comes in. But as I'm thinking about these things, it's like none of this is good, but there must be a reason that we men watch this. Like, why are you finding men actually watching this? Is it to like cover up for a wound or a pain or a feeling they don't want to feel? Is it similar to like drugs and alcohol that way? Like what benefit are we getting from watching this? Because it must be something?

Sathiya Sam 9:36

Yeah, for sure. I think it's actually very similar to drugs and alcohol in the sense that it is generally pain of some kind that is really at the core of it. So there people are either numbing the pain or they're relieving the pain using pornography. But I think the reason that the the consumption rates are so high with porn, compared to you know, drug abuse or alcoholism is because porn also plays into a fund Mental desire that every single human has and not just a desire but a need. And that is for connection and for intimacy. And porn is sort of like fast food intimacy, it gives you the illusion that you're getting it. But when it's all said and done, you feel emptier afterwards. So I think that is sort of the it's just, it's why porn sinks, its claws really deep into people's life. Because yes, it offers you the relief of pain or the numbing of pain. But furthermore, it's also giving you the connection that we so desperately crave to feel fulfilled and content in life. And that's what makes it a really slippery slope.

Curt Storring 10:37

Right? Wow. Okay, so there must be like a lot of work that you have to do with people that you're coaching or bringing through your program to sort of tease out those underlying why's, is there anything that you help people with, particularly finding the pain below all of this? And maybe we can just like, let's go there, but I almost want to bring it back a little bit. Because it can be maybe jarring for guys to be like, Well, I don't watch porn, because I'm like, in pain. So let's go into like, ways that you have helped people find this pain, and then maybe let's back up a little bit and just be like, you know, how does this make sense that I'm watching, because I'm hurt. So we'll go that route, if you have anything on there, no, for

Sathiya Sam 11:15

sure. That's a, those are loaded topics. So let me think a little bit like, I guess, um, we basically have three pillars for recovery. And we really believe in the order of these pillars. So the first one is building self awareness. The second is healing from the past. And then the third is identity formation. So we don't jump straight into like your traumas of the past, we acknowledge that there's probably some stuff there contributing. But the first thing is, is building self awareness. Self awareness is unfortunately, it's a buzz term now. So what I mean by that is like, it's actually it's actually just having an understanding of your inner life, which guys are notorious for, because we don't get taught this. And actually, we get taught to not be aware of the inner life because it shows weakness, and whatever else. And I would say as well, like, it's probably not as natural for our wiring. So there's a little bit of all that at play, but also says you can't actually go into the parts of your past, unless you really have a concept for the inner life and kind of how it impacts things day to day. I'll give Asha use myself, I'll put myself on the altar a little bit here as as the example of what it looked like to heal from the past. Rule number one is we only look at our past long enough to learn. So that's a really big one, I think a lot of guys are scared to go through their past because they don't want to wallow. They don't want to get stuck in things that are already behind them. I'm certainly have that mindset as well. But there are parts of our past that are contributing to our sexuality, it's really hard to separate those things. And so it would be wise for us to at least go back long enough to just simply learn to heal, to grow, and then to move forward with our lives. So I'll fast forward a little bit. But basically, I was I had been struggling with porn for about 14 years. And it started off very small and kind of innocent. And then it really developed into something terrible. And I was I was properly addicted. So I was getting professional help. And I was in the office of a therapist. And we started talking about my mom. My mom is an incredible woman, like I was the guy who grew up with in like a really good home safe environment, very little to complain about no traumas, certainly no capital T traumas, maybe a couple of little T traumas. But like really nothing to scoff at. And my mom was always very supportive, very kind, very nurturing, loving, but a little bit reserved in her personality. So anyways, this person is asking me some questions. They're, they're sort of poking around, you know, and they're kind of asking about this relationship with my mom. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, my mom was great, it was fine. There's nothing really to talk about here. And anyway, he did his job really well, he poked around. And all of a sudden, I realized that for a majority of my life, I've actually felt neglected by my mother. Now not neglected in the sense that like, she didn't feed me, it wasn't like she neglected my physical needs, because that's kind of how guys would relate with that term, but neglected in the sense that she actually never expressed love in the way that I needed it. Like she showed up for me, and she did things for me. That was her way of showing love. But I actually like I really feel on people's words, and I feed on time. And those are things that I didn't really get. So I'm making this discovery. And it's like one of those things where you have a moment, but you have like 1000 thoughts at once everything sort of coalesces. And I realized, well done, if you grow up, and you don't get affection from your maternal figure the way you were supposed to, or the way you need it, then doesn't it make sense that you would start to seek that affection in other places like chasing girls pornography, and you know, whatever else it might be? So for me, that was a real mind blowing moment. And I think hopefully, for your audience, that's a good example of how I would not have been able to connect those dots because it's not like when I was clicking around, I was thinking about how my mom neglected me and I'll show her you know, like, it's not a conscious thing, but it was clearly a plot that was kind of underneath the surface all along.

Curt Storring 15:05

Yeah, that is a perfect example. And I love going into things like this because there is so much of you know, masculinity and everything that a lot of the men male influencers these days are talking about, which is always move forward, get shit done all the rest of that kind of stuff. And I am 100% there. And it has to be like, held in a container of, and something else. And that's something else in my experience just personally is like, we are so hardwired by the way in which our parents interacted with us or not, even if they did nothing wrong, even if it was our perception of that, like you say small t trauma of just neglect. It's like, Man, there is so much there that if you can't seem to stop doing what you think is damaging in your life, maybe have a look there and maybe do it with professional help, like you did. But man, you sometimes just have to go back to move forward. So I'm glad you shared that. And, and thank you for being so vulnerable, because I'd love to get into your story even more. But before we do that, let's go back just a little bit and talk about the difference between use and addiction. So one of the questions I had was like, Is it okay ever to use pornography? And if not, why? And if it is, then what is the line between that and addiction?

Sathiya Sam 16:16

Yeah. Okay, that's a great question. So I'm certainly of the opinion that porn is never useful for you. Now, that's really only one dimension of the equation, we could get into it. But like, there's a lot of trafficking, a lot of abuse, there's some really terrible things that happen on the other side of the screen as well, which I think is why we should not be consumers of porn. Like I said, we can get into it, my focus is certainly on the other side of the screen. But porn porn offers you nothing like whatever you think porn might give you, I can guarantee you, there's a better way to get it, that is going to have better long term effects on your overall well being and certainly your sexuality. So um, I don't think there's a place for pornography, ever in somebody's life where it's actually beneficial. And that that ties into some of the reasons we mentioned earlier. Like, even if you dabble in it, let's say you're married as an example, like dabbling in pornography is a little bit like getting a third party involved in your sex life every once in a while. Like, it just it doesn't work for the success of the marriage or the success of the relationship, you know. And again, if you're single, but you want to be in a relationship, you want to find healthy avenues for getting your need for intimacy and connection met, that is the mark of a good man in a relationship context. And if you're using porn, all it reveals is the immaturity that you have in that area of your life. So again, it's it's much better that you're able to find good ways to feel content to get those needs met. And that's going to be better for your relationships down the road as well. As far as use and addiction of really interesting subject because the the diagnostic manual that psychiatrists would go by to diagnose alcohol addiction, or drug addiction, is not acknowledging porn as an addiction, yet. They have two categories of addiction. One is substance, which we all know, drugs and alcohol being the main ones. And then there's process addiction, which is more behavioral. So they actually acknowledge, well, of course, gambling, that's the popular one. They also acknowledge video game addiction. But there isn't enough research yet to kind of prove that porn has, I believe there's four or five qualities that's required for it to be a diagnosable condition. And it hasn't proven that statistically yet. And a huge part of it is because it's just hard to get data around porn consumption, because guys don't want to talk about it or open up about it. So felons a little bit tougher, but I would say like, it's only a matter of time. They're doing like brain scans of the porn addicted brain versus a normal brain. And it looks very similar to the drug addicted brain, like, all the stuff is out there. It's just a matter of research kind of catching up, and that becoming an official thing. So that's at least the starting point for that conversation. But we could get more into it if you want.

Curt Storring 18:59

Right? Yeah, thank you. And one of the things that I was talking to a previous guest, Ben Goreski about is just like, what counts as addiction. And one of the things he said is that, like, it's something that you can't stop doing that gets in the way of other things, or that harms your life in some way. And so I think that's the lens that I look at these things, whether or not there's like psychological papers that say like, yes, it's an addiction, like, it's pretty clear, just anecdotally, like this is absolutely an addiction. So if it's in your life, and it's taking up time that otherwise could be spent otherwise, like one of the stats I saw was that guy's watch like 12 or 13 hours a week, I'm going like how, like that. I don't even know where you'd find that time. And yet, there are a lot of men who do that. And and so, yeah, like it becomes an addiction when I think it takes away from other parts of your life or harms you in some way. And you've given some great examples. There are a few other examples that I just want to touch on and see if you have any, like data points or thoughts. Some of the things that I was wondering about you touched on Ed already erectile dysfunction. performance anxiety, dissatisfaction with the actual sexual experience that you're having in the moment in real life, again, the amount of hours that goes into this. Do you know if there's any like research or anything done on brain development or teens watching porn?

Sathiya Sam 20:16

No, there isn't. That's the short answer. Like they're starting to do it for sure. I think like 1015 years ago, when people were like trying to raise the flag about this thing, most researchers just kind of pushed it to the side didn't think much of it. Now that like, again, like stats around like erectile dysfunction, great example, where it's like, hello, like, this is clearly a thing. So I think we'll get more research on it now. But with brain development, you like you need more time even just to see what happens. So it will be a while before we know that part for sure.

Curt Storring 20:47

Right? Okay. Another thing I have is like unrealistic expectations. And these, these don't even need to be like proven with statistics, in my opinion, right now, like, these are things that if you want to do the research, there's some out there, as you're saying, but like unrealistic expectations, I think is probably a big issue with especially young men never having had a sexual experience before. The only expectation because and this is a point for dads to sort of step up here. We don't have the conversations with our kids, because maybe we never had them or maybe we're uncomfortable, or we just don't know, like how to speak into their lives. Like this becomes rather than learning from us as fathers, they learn this stuff from porn. And I hear about this all the time. So have you seen anything like that in regards to unrealistic expectations or anything like, Oh, it's

Sathiya Sam 21:31

a huge one. It's a huge one, man. Okay, so let's talk about it just from the academic side first. So one of the really common requests that urologist like the guy mentioned, Dr. Aaron Spitz is getting in his practice is for male enhancement surgeries. Because guys are, of course, seeing these performers online, feeling like they cannot measure up, they can't compete. And thinking that the only way they're actually going to be satisfactory in the bedroom, is if they make an adjustment to their appendage. And what he said is that 80% of guys that come into his office and ask for the operation, decide to not go through with it, when they hear the stats about the average male length. But they just don't know any better, right? Because they're being programmed by pornography. Another common one is even like duration in the bedroom. So the average porn video is I think, about 20 to 21 minutes long. And that is about three times actually, I think it's about four times the average sexcapades, with between, you know, a man and a wife. So it just goes to show you that like, porn really programs us for something that is completely unrealistic. And if we don't know any better, like you're saying, like, if we're not educated on it, if our parents don't talk to us about it, if Pornhub is our teacher, then we have these ideas that are really hard to, you know, detach from. And I guess on the other side of it, this is more anecdotal now, but a lot of my clients are feeling bad for themselves. They're throwing these pity parties, because their wives or their partners don't want to do things that they think are normal, because they were seeing it in the porn video. And it's like, I thought everybody does this, like, surely this is the norm. And then they're feeling bad for themselves, because they've never had a specific experience or something. And I'm like, bro, for starters, that's a weird thing to ask for. But secondly, like, that is so not the point. Like, there's no standard of what's right or wrong, you and your partner gets to figure that out together. That's what it means to actually grow in a sexual relationship. And if she doesn't want to do it, that's well within her right, you not only do you respect it, but you say, hey, like, Thanks for setting a boundary, and let's make the most of the things you are comfortable doing. So I think, I think those are like, I guess two different sides of what I would say the same coin, which is porn, programming us for completely unrealistic experiences in our sex life.

Curt Storring 23:51

Can you go deeper on the communication aspect there? Do you work with your clients at all on this, like how to grow a communicative sexual relationship and express the needs that you might have while not expecting them or needing them to be met?

Sathiya Sam 24:04

Yeah, we talk about this a lot in our groups. And I'm will say like, I'm really glad, Kurt, that you do groups as well, because I think I think men need it now more than ever. So if you haven't been in one of Kurt's groups, yet, you should really do it. Because those are like, that's where the transformation really happens. What we see, I guess, is like, for starters, guys have a hard time with disclosure. So a lot of the guys who come to me are like, Hey, I actually haven't talked to my wife about it. She kind of knows, you know, anytime, anytime they say she kind of knows. She doesn't know, but they just assume that like she doesn't, or maybe he got caught one time. That's usually what that means. So that's where we always start in the band of communication. It's like, okay, well, you have to like, we got to figure out how you can kind of start opening up to her. That's sort of part one. And it can take a lot of time to even just get through that phase. Because, of course, like it brings up a whole set of questions for the wife, and sometimes there's some repair that needs to take place there. But then as far as like talking about Sex and that kind of thing. We'd really encourage it. Like, if you really want a good sex life, you have to be able to talk about it. And it's not just talking about it as in the act, but it's getting an understanding of like, what is the experience of sex? Like for the other person? What are their needs? What are their preferences? What are the things they don't? Like? Are there any fears or insecurities around sex, all those kinds of things should be part of the conversation. And we really do encourage our guys to, to be leaders, you know, and to really initiate those dialogues, because they go a really long way. And it is uncomfortable, like, I don't want to present it like, you know, you should be able to talk about this. It's so easy. Like, we all know, there's something about sex, that's just very personal. And it's much easier to stay hidden about it. But at the same time, we all want a healthy sex life, like we all want to be that great partner for whoever it is that we're with. And what bridges that gap or makes it possible is communication. So yeah, it's a huge thing that we emphasize. On it, I would say it's not a focus, like we focus really on the recovery part, specifically from pornography. But in our group calls, inevitably, this conversation comes up. And these are some of the things that we try to emphasize.

Curt Storring 26:12

Amazing. Okay. Yeah, I love a lot of that. The things that are coming up for me right now is that like, yes, like you said, it's very uncomfortable. And I just encourage guys to like, own the discomfort, own the insecurity, own the embarrassment, and sit with it, because this is likely coming from the fact that you may or may not have been taught or the absence of having that been taught that it's like not okay to talk about that, that it's weird, that is shameful. There's like a lot of shame in this sort of talk. And just from personal experience, I know like how good it can be, after having those conversations, being honest, being open. And like, yeah, it feels like, Am I allowed to talk about this, like, I had that little boy energy in my head, like, I'm gonna get in trouble. And it's like, no, man, I like you said, I'm the leader. I'm the man, I got to do this, because nobody else is gonna do it. And the connection, like, let alone Nevermind the physical act, whatever. The connection that comes from having these deep connective understanding and relationship with your wife, with your partner, in an intimate setting, then like it is, it can be transformative, it can be transcendent. And I just want to give the guys out there like that hope that it doesn't have to be like, sketchy, we do the same thing every time, I kind of want more, but I don't know how to say it. Like it can be with the vulnerability that it takes and the courage that it takes to have these talks. It can be like, unbelievable, so shine the light on the dark and and go there.

Sathiya Sam 27:34

That's really good, man really good. I was gonna add something my wife and I, we, we chose to not have sex until we got married. And like I said, that plays into my faith life and some of my morals. And getting closer to our wedding day, I was starting to get the jitters a little bit like some performance anxiety, because I guess I was just realizing like, I mean, my wife and I both had sexual past. So like, we weren't perfect people in that sense, by any means. But we had decided in our relationship to wait till marriage. But I guess I was like, Oh, I don't know if I'm going to measure up to maybe like her previous experiences, but also to what I had seen on porn, you know, like, and I had been free your porn for a little bit at that point. But, but still was really feeling it. And so I mustered up the courage it was it was kind of through the nudging of one of my mentors, I mustered the courage to just have the conversation, and you emphasize something that I probably should have clarified earlier, which is, when you have these dialogues, you, you start by owning your side of it, like the things that you're fearful about, like you don't start the dialogue to be like, hey, here are the things that I'm hoping you'll do, or like, whatever, you know, like, it has to start with you owning it. So like I had just spoken to him. She was my fiancee at the time, like, Hey, I'm feeling actually really nervous. I'm kind of insecure, I'm not gonna measure up data. I don't know what your expectations are. We haven't talked about it. And that conversation was super liberating. Because when I heard her expectations, I was like, Oh, that's great. Like, like, you know, for her, it was just all about connection. And like, you know, having like having those that time together, it had nothing to do with my performance, of course, but like classic guy brain, like I'm just like, I'm thinking about like, trying to measure up and trying to like woo her and wow, her and everything. But it was super helpful. And like, from that conversation until we got married, I think we're a couple more months. And like, I was starting to just joke around, like, I hope you're ready for the best 15 seconds of your life, you know, like talking about the wedding night, like we just start to make jokes about it. And I think that light heartedness made it so much easier when we did start having sex because the dialogue was there. And like you were saying the vulnerability was there. So because it happened at an emotional level, then it was so much easier to engage in sex, which is also very vulnerable, at a physical level. So I think those things go hand in hand. And that is the benefit. It's sort of the counter intuitive thing is, if you have the conversations that are uncomfortable, they will actually make your sex life more enjoyable and more comfortable in the long run. But you have to kind of make the hard step first.

Curt Storring 29:54

Totally. And this is bringing to mind something that I've heard from a previous podcast guest dominant core to CIO, he runs The Great man within podcast, and he has talked a lot about creating intimacy outside of sex. So if, for example, you are struggling with erectile dysfunction, or if something's just not quite right, or you know, you're not connected with your wife, and there is a way to create intimacy without penetrative sex, and it's like, that is impossible if you're not willing to have conversations, because most guys shut down shameful. Oh, no, like, I'm the worst, something's wrong with me. But if you're able to sit with that discomfort, and like we're talking about, be vulnerable, share it, here's what I'm feeling right now. You know, what can we do here to maintain connection? Because I do want to stay connected with you. Like, there are ways and I think this is just like the start of a fantastic conversation. If you want to go down that route, listen to some of the podcasts by Dom. But like, yeah, there is so much to this. It doesn't have to be this, like, close your eyes. Oh, my God, I hope nobody notices that I'm having sex. And then like, super basic, and you don't get what you need. She doesn't get what she needs. Like, what's the point? This is a beautiful, like, beautiful part of life. That not enough guys are like really diving into because we don't have permission from from being a man. And so I just want to give that permission. And it sounds like you're giving that permission to just with your own story, man. So I really thank you for going there.

Sathiya Sam 31:17

Oh, yeah. 100% I actually I just interviewed a couple on my podcast. What did you say that one's called the great man within? Yeah. Is that Yeah, my so my podcast is called UNLEASH THE MAN within so not not too nice. Not too different there. But we are we were interviewing a couple and we kind of kind of got on this subject. We were just talking about sex and kind of the early the early stages, I guess, the first couple years. And we were poking fun at each other a little bit like the difference between a guy and a girl after sex, right? Because the girl wants to connect emotionally. They want to cuddle generally, right? Like, they still want to kind of interact. And like the guy he was giving you this example of like, recently, like afterwards, like, you know, they're cuddling. But like, he's just thinking about like, ants, and like, how cool it is that they can build these ant farms that are so intricate, you know, and it's like, we were just we were howling. But the point was, that actually, all you have to do is talk about it. And like, for me, like I know, my wife wants that afterwards as well. Because she's expressed it to me like, hey, when you you know, when you just switch off and start watching sports after or like you leave the room. That's actually like really hard for me like that feels like you didn't get anything out of the experience, which I'm like, what that's crazy, because like I was present right until the very end. But for her, of course, it hasn't ended. So like just a great example of like, when you have these conversations, you talk it through a little bit. You're able to make those adjustments for each other. And every like both of you leave the experience both feeling fulfilled, feeling content, feeling cared for. And that's really what it's all about.

Curt Storring 32:45

Yeah, man. I love this. I'm feeling fired up right now. Thanks. Yeah, well, I'm feeling fired up, I would love to walk through some of your story. I know you shared a little bit about going deeper into the mother wound. But would you just walk us through like maybe through the depths of the negative consequences in your life, how you were using pornography, and then how you actually made a change, to get to the other side. And I mean, now you're teaching men how to do this. So I think it'd be very revealing if you're able to sort of go there. And you know, however vulnerable you feel you can be, I would love to just hear and learn from you.

Sathiya Sam 33:19

Absolutely, man. So I'll set it up a little bit. I like I said, I grew up in a pretty good home, my dad is a pastor. And we went to Christian schools for most of our lives. So I have a younger brother and an older sister. So I say that because everything was set up for me to make pretty good decisions in life. I got exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my Christian school when I was 11 years old. So it just goes to show you like, and that was in 2001 Kurt like this is before the smartphone. This is even before like the internet's really like kicking off, you know,

Curt Storring 33:50

man can find it there. Like it's everywhere. That's seriously

Sathiya Sam 33:53

Yeah. And it was purely by accident. It was a really innocent sounding website. But that was sort of the beginning of it. Now, I didn't go home and like begin looking it up right away. I was actually kind of, I was kind of disturbed and kind of intrigued. It's, it's weird, you know, first exposure can often be like that. But eventually, I started to think more about it. And I was probably right before I hit puberty, to be honest. So anyway, by the time I was in high school, I would say porn consumption was normal. And even among my peers, I knew that they did it. There was occasionally even times where we hung out, and we would like watch stuff together. So that all kind of reinforced that like, we all knew it was wrong. Like we're all attending a Christian school here. Like we all have that moral fiber in us that says like, you shouldn't be doing this apart from like, all the other reasons you shouldn't be. And yet we still kind of chose to, but in those days, I just told myself, I'll stop this later. You know, when it's when my life is more important or you know, whatever it is, university, my goal was to get into med school and become a psychiatrist. So I was working really hard, very high achieving academically. I got over five figures of research grants in my undergrad, so I was often working in labs. And then I had a part time job. So I worked hard man. And porn for me was my reward at the end of the day. And it was kind of my relief as well. And that's where it really became an addiction. Because every day, I would come home and I couldn't wait to watch something, I would think about what I was going to watch, I would almost have it curated before I would even get home and have an idea of where I was going to look. And we talked earlier about, you know, what, what makes something an addiction, and the DSM that manual for psychiatrists, they look for a few factors. One is they look for desensitization, which is that the content that you're watching no longer gives that fulfillment. So you start to watch something that's either more intense, or you watch it in greater amounts, that was starting to happen for me. So I would definitely be watching the more of it longer periods of time. And it was probably almost a daily thing, if not, maybe a couple times a day, depending on the week. So that was one thing. Another another common quality of an addiction that they look for is that you are neglecting normal responsibilities, and even your social commitments. And thankfully, that was not a huge thing for me. But a lot of my clients experienced that where they're like, Yeah, I blew my friends off tonight, I told him that I was sick, or that I was busy. But really, I just want to watch porn. So thankfully, that wasn't part of my life too much. But it was in the mix a little bit. But the other thing that I wanted to touch on is a third quality, they look forward to diagnose an addiction, or to qualify an addiction, rather, is that you engage in riskier behavior, to get the substance or to engage in the act. And one of the lowest moments for me was our computer was in our guest bedroom. So this is this was kind of even before we had laptops and stuff, right? Or maybe I had a laptop. But anyway, the computers in the guest bedroom, and my brother was sleeping in it, I forget exactly why. But he was sleeping, I think it was in the basement, and it was a bit cold or whatever. So he was sleeping in the basement. And there's one night where like, I really just had a strong craving, I had taken no effort at this point to like, get porn out of my life. So he's just when it came up, I usually gave in. And I was like, Oh, I really shouldn't watch it. Like he's in the room. He's sleeping and whatever. But like, eventually, like, you know, I guess one thing just led to another and I wound up watching with my brother sleeping there in the bedroom. And that that was one of those moments where it was like, Oh, my gosh, this is this is actually really, really bad.

Eventually, I reached a point in my life where I was like, Okay, I wanted to clean up a bunch of things, I actually went through a really tough breakup, I was I was dating somebody for about a year and a half, I found out they had cheated on me. And that one, that one stung, it really stung. And it caused me to look at my life a little bit and realize, I need to make some changes. And at the top of that list was to get rid of porn. And no matter how hard I tried, or what I did, I could not shake it. And I could go a couple days or maybe even a couple of weeks. But I was caught in the binge purge cycle, very light, very typical symptom of somebody who's in an addiction. So that was when I realized this is way worse than I thought and I need to start getting help. The initial help for me was very isolated. So it was an internet filter, it was an accountability partner, I think I talked to one friend about it. But it was really like I didn't want to open up too much I didn't want to share with anybody. And I was really doing what I would call behavior modification. I wasn't really getting to the heart of the issue, I was just trying to curb that bad behavior pattern that didn't last very long, and eventually became really clear, like, hey, if I'm gonna make some progress here, I need to do something different. Now, I didn't know at the time, how important like wounds of the past how you view yourself. emotional well being I had no idea how much those played in. But it was in my mid 20s, where I started to discover this. And I was actually part of a program that specifically equips you in these areas, and really helps you heal and transform your heart. And that's where I really started to experience breakthrough. I learned to love myself, I just started to see myself different. I figured out how to become emotionally present again, and really just be, I think, in touch with my inner life, like we were talking about at the beginning. And then I process some of those wounds. All of that happened in that same season. And that's when I I would say I actually started to experience true freedom. So not just sobriety, but actual freedom, like something was changing within me. And the repercussion, or the ripple effect of that was that I was not choosing to engage in porn as much. So like I said, it was it was about five years of trying different things. Transformation, healing of the heart, all that stuff in February 2016 was the last time that I ever viewed so it's been I think, at the time of our recording here, coming up on about six years.

Curt Storring 39:45

Wow, that's amazing, man. Thanks for going there. And I just I love the fact that the answer was like healing a heart or like filling your heart or being able to love yourself because that's even in my journey like my I haven't struggled with addiction beyond you know this My phone once in a while, like I was never a user of pornography, you know, beyond the first few times, you know, you see it in high school or wherever, like you said, you know, you watch it with your buddies and, and then it's sort of just there. But like, that's never an issue with me. But my issue was like anger, like I was almost addicted to anger because of the control, it allowed me to feel. And so that's sort of the closest that I have come to a true addiction. But the thing that's the same in that story is that it was my ability to love myself, that really started this entire thing to see everything that had happened to me as having happened for me. And to really understand that, like, whatever reactions I was having started as like loving, active, the first acts of self love, I say, are like the formation of the ego, because it's trying to protect you from whatever is happening in your environment that doesn't feel good, that feels unsafe, and it creates these defense mechanisms. And so it was for me as well, the first act is just like, oh, I can feel compassion, and empathy and like forgiveness for myself. So I just, I love that that's part of your story, too. Because man, that is just so transformative for me.

Sathiya Sam 41:09

Yeah, I mean, I always tell people like you, you can't outperform your beliefs, you know, like, whatever you think about yourself, it's always gonna manifest in your behavior one way or another. And a lot of the guys that we work with, like, they just think they're these dirty rotten people, because they're struggling with pornography, and they know they shouldn't be and, you know, like, a lot of my clients do come from a religious background. So sometimes the religious shame is compounding their experience of that. And, and I always tell guys, like, if you believe that you're a pervert, if you believe that there's something terribly wrong with you, and that you're just kind of messed up, you're going to do perverted things by faith. Like, if that's what you believe about yourself, what else would a pervert do but watch porn and engage in these kinds of sexual misbehaviors? So until you start to actually view yourself the right way, and it like, I like what you're saying, it's not as simple as just saying, like, Okay, I'm not a pervert, I am great, I'm awesome. I'm amazing. Like, it's not, it's not just like flipping it on its head. But actually working through like learning to forgive yourself, learning to value yourself, I love that statement. Like, it's not happening to me, it's happening for me, just that kind of like, take life by the horns. With a real, I would say, just an authentic authority, that goes a really long way to loving yourself, seeing yourself the right way and correcting those beliefs. And of course, as you start to see yourself as somebody who's worthy of unconditional love, someone who has infinite value and was, you know, wired to make a difference in this world, of course, your behaviors are going to follow suit as well.

Curt Storring 42:29

Yeah, one of the things I say, often I try to remind guys, is that, like, it's not your fault, but it's your responsibility. And what I mean by that is like all the things leading up to your conditioning today, like you didn't have a saying that as a kid, you didn't have a say in what society grew up in. And unfortunately, it's your responsibility. Maybe not unfortunately, actually, fortunately, because it gives you hope. So like, a lot of guys can't divorce the fault and responsibility. They think, like, oh, like, I'm like this, and I have to take responsibility for but like, I just feel bad because I am a bad person. And if you're able to just step back and be like, hey, it actually makes sense that you're engaging these behaviors based on everything that you've experienced up till this point. And it still you're the only one is gonna be able to make a difference in your own life. Like you say, take life by the horns, like you can do that so much easier without the guilt of thinking it's all your fault all the time. So yeah, these are these are powerful conversations. Thank

Sathiya Sam 43:20

you. Yeah, I one of the one of the things that we often say in our community is that a mistake made once as a mistake, but a mistake made twice as a choice. And, and I think, I think it's so easy to deflect responsibility. And like you said, like, I think especially, you know, some of like the 12 step programs for addiction. like step one is just like, it's, it's acknowledging that you have, it's admitting it right like that I have the problem, I am the problem. And that's really hard for guys to do. But as you said, it's the most empowering thing you can do. Because you cannot be part of a solution if you're not first part of the problem. So when you're when you're part of the problem, it's actually the only way that you have a chance to change your circumstances. As long as the problem is doesn't involve you and you're not responsible. That problem will persist in your life, whether it's porn or something else. So that responsibility is it's huge, man. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Curt Storring 44:11

Yeah, one of the questions I had based on your story was you talked about this idea of a reward system. And I wonder if you have something like that today, that still gives you that feeling of like, okay, I deserve almost deserved, maybe not the right word, but I would like some reward. But that is not so troublesome anymore. Is there something like that in your life still?

Sathiya Sam 44:30

Yeah, I mean, it, it changes. It changes regularly, for sure. But I think I think there's probably two things that I would say I really reward myself with. I love chocolate. So I do have chocolate pretty much every single day. And my wife and I have this tradition of having brunch every Saturday morning. So that's like one of those rewards that I really, really look forward to. And I mean, the brunch is really enticing to my brain. But what actually really what makes it so great is we have some of our best conversations just about Marriage, about life about our future over brunch Saturday mornings. So that's become a huge reward for me, I think in my life. And the other thing that is really valuable to me is like, I'm big on friendship. Most of my friends, like the guys who stood beside me at my wedding, I've been friends with all them for a decade plus, and I got married at 29. So like, it's not like I was around forever. I'm really big on those friendships. And that is hugely rewarding for me. My wife and I are actually based out of Toronto, Canada. But I currently live in Jamaica, because she's Jamaican, and we decided to move down here for the winter. And, like, I'm still keeping in touch with my friends. They're we're chatting on the phone pretty regularly. Some of them it's every week. And those are huge rewards for me as well. And that that, again, that comes from conditioning, because if you ask me 10 years ago, if like, I would consider talking on the phone with a friend and be a reward, it would be like, not at all like, how is that rewarding? But now I realize like, this is so paramount to my success in life and my overall contentment. That's, that's a huge one for me.

Curt Storring 46:00

Nice, cool, man. Yeah, I was just wondering, because like, a lot of guys, probably you have that same reward system. And it's like, well, what are you going to replace it with? But of course, then you do the inner work and like, you might not even need to replace it specifically for the same reason. So that was just sort of a curiosity. Another curiosity is like how has this impacted your relationship with your family being so open about this stuff? Because I'm sure that like, it's so few people are willing to go as deep as you are. And as vulnerable as you are about this? And it must be, I assume shocking, almost is like people in your family. So is there anything there to dive into? How has that affected things?

Sathiya Sam 46:36

Oh, it's a great question. And I do apologize. I think the ice cream chalk is just going by it's, it's to me, it's, it's hot here year round. So yeah. Okay, so basically, I had a conversation with my parents, when I was still struggling, actually. And the conversation was like, Hey, Mom, and Dad, there's an area of my life that I haven't really let you into or shared about much. But I think it would be important to just let you know. And I explained to them, like, I got exposed to pornography at the Christian school, you know, when I was 11 years old, they were kind of shocked by that. And I explained to them, like, I really continue to struggle, I'm doing a lot better. I think when I had that conversation, I was doing quite well, I still had a another relapse or two before I got fully free afterwards. But that's where it started. My parents. My parents are really level headed. They're not your typical, traditional Christian, Indian parents, they are Indian, like they were both born and raised in India, you know, so Indian culture has a whole sub set of issues that come with it when it comes to sexuality and all this stuff. They were they were really understanding, certainly shocked by it. But they they just said, Hey, thanks for letting us know, you know, we love you just the same kind of thing. So I really couldn't have got a better response. And, you know, with my siblings, like, I think we've always just kind of had an understanding that like, we all have our stuff. And this hasn't really changed it too much. It doesn't come up really like around the dinner table per se. But But yeah, it certainly is interesting, because when you're growing up, like there's all these sibling dynamics, and I think my, my impression is that, like my siblings often viewed me as kind of the poster child because, you know, I skipped a grade, I was really brainy. I got tons of awards and stuff. And like, I was very high achieving. And to be fair, like we were all high achieving, but certainly, between my siblings, I was I was viewed that way. And I did take my faith seriously, like, even when I was young, and still kind of one foot in one foot out. But But yeah, I think it was actually quite relieving for them to be like, alright, this guy had his stuff to like, it wasn't all daisies and roses, and he wasn't just like getting 90s all around, well, like, you know, living this perfect life. So I think it was good on that front. But it hasn't changed a lot. Like it's not like people don't talk to me anymore. They view me differently. Like my family. I'm very fortunate, like my family has been supportive and really understanding.

Curt Storring 48:51

Right? Yeah, thanks for going there, man. Because that's one of the things that I was thinking I was like, we often don't say things that we need to because we assume what the other person's gonna think. Did you have assumptions of what would happen when you told your parents? Well,

Sathiya Sam 49:04

yeah, like in general, like, even if we brought it this just be on my parents, like, when I first started talking about this on social media, because like, that's kind of how this thing started. Like, I started posting on social media. I was legitimately scared, you know, because I thought like, I had worked for churches and stuff before I thought people were gonna come back and be like, You hypocrite, like, you lie and like, Whatever, whatever. So yeah, I had a lot of fears for sure. But I had reached the point in my life where it was, like, people out there struggling, I know I have something to help them. I owe it to the world to put myself out there. Even if I'm completely ostracized, like I had sort of come to terms with it. And thankfully, like nobody, nobody in my circle has really treated me differently or judged me and I can some of that ties back to the fact that like everyone kind of understands like this is a prevalent issue. And you know, you're the guy talking about it, but let's not kid ourselves, like a majority of guys have had their experiences and probably still are struggling with it. In some cases. So I think it's, it's worked mostly to my advantage, but lots of mental fears to kind of hurdle before I could come out with it.

Curt Storring 50:07

Yeah, and just doing courageous stuff. Man I love talking about that we talk about that a lot in men's group is just like, have the courage to do the things that are hard. And it's a lot easier with guys in your corner, of course, but I just I'm glad that, you know, there's a great example, another good example not only getting help and talking about it, but then like sharing this in the world. And I felt the same way. And like mine wasn't about something that was, you know, inherently, people have a judgment about I was just talking about, like my own struggles and fatherhood. And I was like, oh, no, like, everyone's gonna think I'm a failure, or this or that if I share all my failures that I've learned from, and it turned its turn into this big community. So like, you know, my encouragement is like, go out there and be yourself and be honest, and be vulnerable, be authentic, because life is so much easier. When you're not trying to live like dual lives are like wondering what you can share what you can share. And, and there's a place for oversharing versus authenticity to be sure. But man, I've just I've seen in you, and I've seen it myself, just this power that comes from sharing your story.

Sathiya Sam 51:04

You know, you go I was just, I was actually gonna ask you, Kurt. Like, what, what do you advise people on on the sharing part? Like, where do you draw the line for what's appropriate sharing and what's oversharing?

Curt Storring 51:14

Yeah, one of the things I've talked to my co captain in my men's group about locally, so I've got the online groups, but I've also got this group of men locally that we run together. And he said, people like stories about scars, they don't like stories about wounds. And I thought that was like a great differentiation between like, here's what I'm going through. And like all of the stuff while it's happening, there's a place for that for the men, especially inside men's group, and he was talking mostly from a leadership capacity. So for the men going through those wounds, absolutely bring them to the to the circle, but as a leader, as someone who's trying to get out there and share a message and hopefully bring people along beside him. The scars are the things that are sort of worth talking about so that people aren't not disgusted. But I mean, that gives you a fairly visual sense when you use the words wounded scar. And I think that's it. The other thing that comes to mind is just discernment. Like is the thing I'm sharing going to help anyone? What am I getting out of this? And that's just being intentional with every aspect of your life, like, Am I speaking to be seen and validated? Or am I speaking because my heart needs to be heard? And just like, getting clear on those kind of things? So yeah, intentionality, mindfulness, and then yeah, wounds, save it for the close men in your men's group. Yeah, scars, scars are a lot better if you're leading that. Good. Yeah. Thanks for asking. By the way, I also love to just sort of have these conversations where it's like, oh, yeah, that reminds me of something. So appreciate you asking. Yeah, the the last thing that I want to talk about just before our time ends here is whether or not you have any ideas on how to talk to our kids about this. And I know we've sort of got into a little bit of that on being honest and open. But like, how would you have liked to be talked about this? Or how have you helped your clients talk to their kids about this? Yeah,

Sathiya Sam 53:04

this is a huge question. And it's going to become more and more important as time goes on. So I would say there's two things. Number one, is the law first standard, I don't know if you've heard much about this. But the basic idea with like, obviously, this is raising kids in general. And actually, it's not even true for kids alone. It's true for everybody. But we tend to compare everything else that we hear to the first mention. So whether the first mention is a reliable source or not anything, it doesn't matter. But if it's a topic you know, nothing about you're coming in green, the first mention tends to create the standard that we compare everything else to. So when you are learning through pornography, which is my experience, the problem is for me to learn healthy sexuality, I now have to undo that first mention that first standard. And something like pornography that is a super stimulating experience is really hard to reverse. It's hard to reverse those expectations, and the imprint that it leaves on your brain. So one of the best things you can do as a parent is get ahead of the curve, be the first person that they talk to about it, set those standards so that when they unfortunately, it's probably when they get exposed, not if they get exposed, they're actually comparing porn to what you've taught them instead of the reverse. So I think that's a really good starting point. The second thing, and this is really hard for parents, but when you have conversations around sex and sexuality, The more relaxed you are about it, the more relaxed your kids will be about it. If they can feel the tension, the angst and if they feel any degree of you trying to control them, like the conversations we heard growing up in Christian circles. Again, I don't know how much of your audience has a faith background, but like all we really heard was like porn bad. And sex for marriage. That was pretty much it porn, bad sex for marriage. And so like anything else around it was like, you just got all these all this tension from your leaders, or your parents. And you could tell there's kind of this discussion So the more comfortable you start to get talking about it, the better. And if you're, if your children can tell that you are comfortable, and that you're a safe person to talk to, like you're going to be honest with them, you're not going to sugarcoat it, you're not going to try to force them to do anything. But you're actually just going to speak openly and vulnerably with them, and you're going to empower them, they'll come back, they'll come back again, and again and again. But if they if they don't feel that with you, it's quite likely that when they have questions or curiosities, they're going to go to other places, and that suddenly becomes beyond your control. And God knows what they're going to find out there. So those would be my two main things.

Curt Storring 55:37

Yeah, that's beautiful. And it actually goes right in line with I was talking to another guest, Larry Hagner about he runs this huge dad podcast called The dad edge. And I was talking to him about this. And he said the same thing, building psychological safety is the first step. And then second step is like realizing it's normal. Like, we talked about this as though it's not normal, as though it's bad to have these feelings or these thoughts. And you know, in my experience, and talking to all these other dads like, it's just normal. That's what puberty is. That's what being a young man is. That's what being interesting and interested in these sorts of things is, it's not bad to have the feelings. But when you have the feelings without sort of guardrails, and I don't mean like control your children, but give them the benefit of having those conversations so that the guardrails are in place, then you can navigate, then you can be like, you don't have to feel weird or embarrassed or like Oh, my God, my kids getting there. It's like this, you know, natural conversation that should keep happening. Not once like I got, I remember being like, 10, or 11, in the car, sitting with my dad. And he's like, Okay, son, well, here's a couple of things. And then nothing ever again, like ever again. And it's just like, That's so wrong. And I think that's still probably like the norm. So I'm just trying to challenge that on this show. It's like dads, you got to have the communication, you got to have these hard conversations. And that's perfect, just like the safety. And yeah, making sure that you're the safe person to go to so that they can learn from that, especially with your nervous system. So that's a great point.

Sathiya Sam 57:03

Yeah, and one last thing I would attach to that is like, don't forget, dads that, you know, we all had probably not a great experience. Like, I'm amazed that your dad even talked to you like the fact you had one conversation, I'm so jealous, you know, we all like have probably had a rougher experience with our parents. And like most people, we always say, like, I'm never, I'm not going to make that same mistake with my kids. But if you if you really want to change the trajectory of your lineage, you have to be the one who's actually brave enough to have those conversations, even if they're uncomfortable. And I think that's something to not lose sight of is, you're not just doing this for you, you're not just doing this for your kid, you are doing this for generations. Because if you can create that kind of psychological safety, and that comfort within your child around sexuality, and it prompts them to make good decisions and have a healthy view of sexuality themselves, they're going to pass that on to their kids and their kids and their kids. So it's not like we can be so short sighted about it. And it's much easier to pull it off. But when you understand the long term implications of a decision like that, you would be absolutely crazy to not have the conversation no matter how uncomfortable it might be.

Curt Storring 58:12

Man, that is literally the whole reason that I do this kind of work, because I believe if we can be chain breakers, as I've heard it be called that breaking the chain of intergenerational trauma, whether that's with sex, whether it's with abuse, whether it's with anger, whatever, if we can do the work on ourselves as fathers, the chain breaks, when the chain breaks, our children don't carry on our generational trauma. When they don't carry that on, they have become more grounded, they have better secure attachment. They build communities and families that don't have the issues that we had. And 2040 years from now, in a couple generations, the world's a much safer, healthier, more loving place. And so that's like, yes, whether it's porn, whether it's sexuality, whether it's whatever. That's why we do this work as dads, for the future for our kids, you know, so it starts with us and like it just carries on for generations. So man degree more. Yeah, that you went there. Cool, man. Okay, well, this has been a lot of fun. Like I've actually learned a lot. I have really enjoyed learning from you and hearing your story. And where can people find you may be starting with like, what it is exactly that you do, which I will have covered in the intro, but let's just go over it again.

Sathiya Sam 59:18

Yeah, yeah. So I've founded a program called Deep Clean that helps guys overcome pornography addiction in a systematic process. We work especially with high performing individuals, doctors, athletes, engineers, accountants, that kind of thing. But you can check everything out at SathiyaSam.com, and that's probably the best place and for your listeners that are looking to get some resources. I do have a free ebook called The Ultimate Guide to porn recovery. Everybody can access that it really is is meant to kind of target a broader audience who just wants to get started on their journey to eliminate porn that's available at ultimate recovery guide.com as completely free of charge. And if you have some audience members who are readers and want to get a book my First Book, the last relapse is coming out. It literally explains my system. So I would read the book first. And if you feel like the system makes sense to you and you want to do it with a little bit of help, then you can reach out to me and we can jump on a call and see what that might look like. So those are the best ways to get in touch.

Curt Storring 1:00:13

Beautiful. Well, thanks for doing this work, man. It is so important and I'm just glad that you're being so vulnerable with it.

Sathiya Sam 1:00:18

Yeah, it's my pleasure man. And And likewise, I think you're doing a really good thing especially doing all these groups. It's it's so needed and like I know on our end we have agreed like we will not do anything without a group component because it's so paramount and fundamental for just guys being healthy, let alone game for your porn. So you're doing a great thing man. Thanks so much for allowing me to be a part of it today. It was really cool

Curt Storring 1:00:44

that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. It means the world to find out more about everything that we talked about in the episode today, including Show Notes resources and links to subscribe leave review work with us go to dad dot work slash pod. That's di d w o RK slash pod. type that into your browser just like a normal URL, Dad dot work slash pod. To find everything there you need to become a better man, a better partner and a better father. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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