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Today’s guest is Scott Rammage.

We go deep today talking about:

  • Repentance and follow up of last episode’s judgement conversation
  • The balance between humility and confidence
  • The three tiers of relationships a man should have
  • The ultra-low standards of modern fatherhood
  • Not getting frustrated and being a victim when your family asks you to do things that aren’t “your problem”
  • The key to lasting discipline and why habits and willpower aren’t enough

Scott Rammage is passionate about helping men become leaders in their homes and communities and that is why he co-founded the Brotherhood of Fatherhood. A group for men to help each other step up and lead, do hard things, and never settle on good enough.

Scott is the host of The Brotherhood of Fatherhood Podcast and Stories That Sell Podcast.

He has been married for 26 years and has two teenage boys. Scott enjoys lifting weights, rucking, snowboarding, mountain biking, and traveling with his family.

Scott is the owner of Media Machine, a company that provides media services, Virtual Assistants, and Podcast production to small businesses and coaches. Scott is a productivity nerd and loves leveraging systems to get more done in less time.

Find Scott online at:
Instagram
: @brotherhoodoffatherhood
Website: Brotherhood of Fatherhood
Podcasts:
– Brotherhood of Fatherhood Podcast
– Stories That Sell Podcast

Resourced mentioned:
Podcast Media Machine
VA Media Machine

155. Confidence vs. Humility, Low Fatherhood Standards, Manning Up At Home, The Key To Discipline - Scott Rammage

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[00:00:00] Curt Storring: If you're listening to the wrong voices, you may think that you are not doing the right thing. And I'm like, maybe I am wrong. But then I stopped and I'm really sorry, but you're not that successful. You're a slave to your system. You have nowhere to go with where you're working.

[00:00:19] Okay, well, as Scott waits for his new tropics to kick in,

[00:00:22] Scott Rammage: We'll get started.

[00:00:23] Curt Storring: we'll get going. Alright, man. Uh, let, let's just kick off. I don't want to do any like preamble or whatever, but last time that you and I are together like a, I guess this will probably come out like a month in advance. Uh, I was talking about this idea of judgment and like people and all the rest of that kinda stuff and looking back like, man, I was in a bad place.

[00:00:40] I was really negative. And I realized in my follow up thinking about this, which f y i, if you guys don't like how you act, then you know, think about it. Sometimes I realized that this was actually hugely selfish and betraying some immaturity on my end. And so I just wanted to like give a wrap up for anyone who is listening to that wondering about the [00:01:00] answer to that.

[00:01:00] And I realized, um, much like you told me, which is like, I can only control me, but who am I? In light of God, number one, which is where I have to just keep putting things like his pedestal is infinite mine, itty bitty. And if I'm on a pedestal in front of God, like, wow, what a horrible place to be. What a like, arrogant, selfish place to be thinking that I could be anywhere closer to him than any other human being.

[00:01:25] So I just realized that I'm gonna drop it. I am praying and working on this constantly. This is my one thing for the rest of the month, is please turn my heart from selfishness and pride to loving other people. And that is difficult and that is hard for me. Um, but I just wanted to follow up and realize that, man, it was all me.

[00:01:45] Like it was, it was just all me. When I see people who aren't performing as high level, it doesn't actually matter for who I am because I think I was taking a bit of a savior complex. I was like, look, I'm a coach, guys, pay me for this. And I'm, I'm held to a standard for results. But I was [00:02:00] just putting that on everybody in the world and I ca I'm not a savior, I don't know everything.

[00:02:05] I cannot be everything to everybody. And so I realized much thanks to what you said to me. Like, you can only control you. Um, and then raise the rent in your head. You told me. I was like, oh yeah, what if I just be nice to people? What does that look like? Because I don't, I don't really know. 'cause I'm actually a little bit scared of being seen by other people.

[00:02:22] And this is what I realized the other day. There's a, a homeless person, let me just, this is the last thing I'll say here. There's a homeless person. And I was like, oh man, I know the right thing to do here is just like, ask him what he wants to eat and order something from the drive-through and just get it for him.

[00:02:33] And I'm gonna be brutally honest here, the fear of judgment of someone behind me going like, oh, look at this guy. Like, uh, giving something for free, enabling this person was probably the thing that stopped me. I wasn't sure, like if I was enabling, I didn't know like the story of this person, but I could have just pulled over and talked to him.

[00:02:51] Like, Hey man, why are you out here? What's going on? And I noticed in that moment it was usually a fear of being judged. And so in all of this I am thinking that man, people are [00:03:00] looking at me and I'm realizing that when I'm judging other people going like, why don't you be better at this? Like we talked about in our last podcast, that's betraying the fact that I'm comparing them to And that is selfishness 1 I am in that all the time because I'm always looking at me, me, me. So I just wanted to like publicly repent and uh, be seen as the other side of this equation that when I'm like looking at other people not performing very well, I'm only comparing them to me, and that's totally wrong.

[00:03:30] So that's all I need to say on that. I just need

[00:03:31] Scott Rammage: agree with that loop closure, but I have a very unique per uh, perspective because get see a little further into Kurt's world. So get to peel the, the layers back a little bit and. What was it that really got you to that point where, you know, in retrospect, you, you were obviously kind of being introspective and thinking about the process and the things.

[00:03:52] How long did it that take you, I want people to understand like, how long did this process to take you? What was the process like? Was it immediate, like, oh I'm, [00:04:00] uh, oh my gosh. Or was there lot of prayer and meditation around this?

[00:04:04] Curt Storring: Well, thi this one, I mean, it's been what, maybe like two weeks since we recorded last time. This will come out later than that, but it was like pretty immediate that I knew something was wrong. And because it kept coloring my conversations, like my wife and I, we would notice that, man, our conversations are pretty negative.

[00:04:21] Like, did you see this happen? Can you believe that this happened? What are we gonna do about this? And I just called us on it and I was like, man, we have to stop doing this. And that's when I brought it up here. That's when I brought it up to you and it just wasn't sitting right. And so, yeah, I, I tackled it as my number one thing because it was keeping me from who I said was gonna be, which was number one, an ambassador to Christ and like just a kind person with friends who people want to be around.

[00:04:43] Like how I gonna have influence if I'm an, if I'm an

[00:04:46] Scott Rammage: Well, newsflash, everybody's announced asshole, uh, at some point. And, and we all see things like, right. We all see things from our own perspective, and I've been really dealing with this a lot. One thing that I've been really intentional about with my wife and I is we used to [00:05:00] talk about things and what people were doing wrong a lot.

[00:05:03] And we have a very, very close relationship. I think you guys do too. And Oh, I know you do. And it was just became this natural thing. And I realized later there's no solution happening in these conversations. And I decided at one point I have to lead. And so I made this habit and it was, it took me a long time and I'm still working on it, but when I get into a conversation about, like, somebody that's, it's negative, maybe it's not positive or I've seen where they're kind of going wrong, I will stop and say, I wonder what we could do to help in this situation.

[00:05:38] Instead of like, oh my gosh, they're doing this, this, and this. And, and then sometimes I'll be as bold and say, Hey, we're not getting anywhere. We're not, we're not doing any, any good by talking about this at this, this point. Unless we have solutions, we probably should shut up. And she'll look at me and say, well, yeah.

[00:05:54] So, but it's taken a long time. I mean, I'm a lot older than you, so I've had a a lot more practice doing it wrong and Right. But, [00:06:00] um, it's, it's, I think you have to learn to give yourself grace. Right? Like, do you feel like, do you, do you realize that other people do this, Kurt?

[00:06:08] Curt Storring: Um, you know what, this is one, this is one of the things that, um, I feel like I've got a, an unintentional blind spot on the, the level that I judge myself is so much higher. Like, uh, last episode we just talked about how much I judge other people, right? Like, even though I said. Oh, I wasn't judgment. Um, I asked my grandad about this real quick and he's like, well, you've got these two things.

[00:06:31] You've got you saying you're not trying to judge, and then you've got you judging. So what is the connection here? You need to stop judging. And I was like, man, well when you say it like that, I guess that's, that's the thing. But I hold myself to such a ridiculously high standard, which I think is a superpower, and with all superpowers has a massive ditch I can fall into.

[00:06:53] And that is thinking that I am very unique, even in my failures. And [00:07:00] men's group and coaching and brotherhood have done a lot to negate that, but it's still something I've gotta deal with going well, like other people just, they're better at this, they're nicer at this and they're more easily, you know, getting along with people.

[00:07:12] And I see other people having friends, therefore, you know, I'm just over here judging man. And like, I don't know, maybe everyone else is just super nice.

[00:07:18] Scott Rammage: yeah. Dude, I, I can't say I haven't been there. You know, I'm the guy that goes into room. I'm, I am not this guy. I used to be this guy. They would go into a room and just think, holy crap, everyone's got so much more together than me. They're more successful. They have more friends. Look at the conversations they're having, and I put a self-limiting. Ability on myself, I put, I put this limit where I couldn't step into who I really should be until I realized, holy cow, this is all me, this is nobody else. And that's just a really, it's a really hard place to be. So how are you gonna avoid it next time? I mean, like, what are you gonna, what are you gonna do?

[00:07:55] Curt Storring: Well, okay, let, I'm gonna, let me just make a note of that, how to [00:08:00] avoid next time. But I want to talk about the, uh, what you just said there, which is like, I think we are very similar in this. There's this thing that I think we both have, which is like, we are objectively good at a lot of things and we are way to, I'm not gonna say humble, because I don't think that's quite it.

[00:08:18] Like we just don't give ourselves credit where the credit is due. And so on the one hand, We're like, okay, we can really do this. We're super confident when we're doing it alone. But then we get around other people and we're like, well, you know, I don't wanna say too much. I don't wanna be too pushy. These people probably have it together.

[00:08:33] And it's this really brutal mix of both, like really high ability and confidence in self. And then it's almost like as soon as you get around other people, you're like, well, I don't know though. Like maybe they are right. Maybe I, there's this weird thing like, do you, do do you know what I'm saying?

[00:08:48] Like this is a really

[00:08:49] Scott Rammage: Yeah, and it, it, it took a lot of work to get into a room and not feel that way. So I am really making huge strides in that. So I, I'm in, you know, several masterminds and I have made [00:09:00] it a point before I step in a room is to actually go through kind of a mental checklist and like, I have a lot to offer.

[00:09:09] And if you were to peel back the layers of each of these guys and gals in this room with their business, you know, there's a really good chance that there is a good chance that I am at the success rate of the upper, like 2% or 5%. Right? I'm not trying to cocky or weird, but the truth is, is a lot of people struggle and put on a, a facade and then we're just judging everything on ourselves against their facade.

[00:09:34] I.

[00:09:34] Curt Storring: that's right. That's exactly it. Because I would never think about lying and I'm not saying like, oh, I'm this little angel over here, but like, my default is not, well, I better just make myself look better here. It definitely used to be when I needed to be perfect, when I need everyone to look perfect, but authenticity and integrity is way more important to me.

[00:09:50] And so I'm judging myself from like the lowliest point, um, of like, you know, maybe even false humility, but I'm seeing other people [00:10:00] doing the opposite, which is trying to make things look better. And so there's like a double chasm there where I'm trying to make myself low and they're trying to make themselves a little bit high.

[00:10:07] And I'm not saying either side is right or wrong and malicious. But it's like I end up feeling like everyone's crushing it all time and I'm just back here like floundering. So it seems like we, we might share that and I wonder if a lot of other guys have that

[00:10:20] Scott Rammage: I think, I think uh, people who have visions of high performance are definitely going to be operating that way. There's a, you know, when I get into. Conversations with people in business sector and, and, and owning business owners is who I hang around with when I get into the conversations with them. And you get deep, you realize that everybody is really struggling with the same thing, but they're just different approaches, just as you mentioned.

[00:10:46] So you have people who are like, oh, I'm gonna puff my chest up, talk about like my income is 10 x what it is. I'm gonna drive a really crazy car and really rare shoes so that everybody thinks I'm crushing it. But on the inside [00:11:00] you get into those conversations, you're like, oh, this guy's life is complete trash.

[00:11:04] His, him and his wife are, have a horrible relationship. And I actually had thought a lot about this in the last six months is the, you know, there's these blessings. We're, we're told that we, you know, we can be blessed and we so often focus on, Just ourselves instead of realizing really how blessed we are.

[00:11:25] And so a lot of it's fake out there and we're battling these fakes. 'cause I, I literally have no interest in, in being fake. In fact, even me saying like, I might be at the up upper 2%, I'm gonna give everybody an insight to my brain saying that made me immediately feel regret because I don't know that.

[00:11:43] And so then I'm like, oh my gosh, I just said something that might not be true and I would lose sleep over that. And so that's the level that, that's level I operate. It's crazy. I'm my own worst enemy at sometimes, but it's taken a lot of work. So if I can talk to anybody younger and [00:12:00] convince them that like, look, you've gotta believe in who you are and what you're doing at that moment.

[00:12:04] And you've gotta believe in what you, the way that you operate is awesome and, but also have the very good mirror. So you, you also stay humble. There's such a, it's a tight rope walk.

[00:12:14] Curt Storring: exactly. You're, you're balancing yourself with like a pale on either end of a stick, doing a walk. One side is that humility, the other side is like actually reality where you are doing a good job. But what you said about, you know, I'm, I'm, I have to remind myself that I am actually doing a good job.

[00:12:29] Um, I saw something from some coach I'd been following at some point and I, I don't know, it was in my notes somewhere and I wrote it down on my weekly tracker this week that says, don't you know how valuable you are? Insert yourself and stuff. People need what you have.

[00:12:42] Scott Rammage: Hmm.

[00:12:42] Curt Storring: And it's like, dude, that's so obvious.

[00:12:45] It's so obvious because like it's proven, people are in a groups and people are following me on Instagram and people listen to this podcast. And yet I'm like, well, I dunno dude. Like, you know, there's a lot of ways it's just my way. And I'm not saying that I'm not confident about what I do, but I'm [00:13:00] defaulting to this idea of.

[00:13:02] I don't wanna bother you, man, but I've talked about this with you I think before as well, where it's like, if I could save one person from going through the misery that I went through, which is I was literally thinking of killing myself because I was so bad to my family, of course I've got something of value.

[00:13:16] If I can just stop like one guy, be like, bro, there's a little bit of hope f y I, if you just like communicate, feel your feelings and you know, write some stuff down in a journal, that alone will do so much. And then what about communication? This and that and this and that, and it's like, oh man, you just have to remind yourself, if you're in this weird continuum of you don't wanna be cocky, you really don't wanna be cocky, you almost lose your sense of purpose and value because you're trying to appear a certain way.

[00:13:41] And again, how selfish is that? Because I'm trying not to appear cocky to other people. What? Like man, everything keeps coming back to that, that like identity. Externalized. And yeah, there, there's a lot to that. Um, you asked about how I was going to not do this next time. You know what I'm, I hope we can [00:14:00] talk later today about something that I would also like to not repeat, because I am finding myself needing lessons over and over and over.

[00:14:07] And, um, man, I think for me it's, it's boiling down to writing it down in my journal every morning. Um, setting my intention in the morning. That's part of my morning routine is like, who do I wanna be today? Um, looking for it in scripture and praying for it. So those are like the three or four very tactical specific things to keep it front of mind.

[00:14:27] And I know that if it's in the front of my mind, at least with the way my brain works, I'll just like chip away at it. Things, things will come into my reality and they'll like bump this idea and they'll shave the hardness off the sides. They'll shave the, the sharpness off the sides of it until it's able to settle down into a way that I hope is gonna be a little bit less jarring next time it comes

[00:14:49] Scott Rammage: Yeah, you just, you just explained basically how you get good at anything. You, you, you put it in front of yourself. You work daily on it. You [00:15:00] are intentional about it, and you have a plan, right? Like so. This? Yeah. There's so much I wanna share about right now because, because I found myself very, being very judgmental, um, over the last week and a half.

[00:15:16] And it was nothing. It's not that. There's, there's this very fine line. We're supposed to be in rooms and surround ourself with people who will lift us up or raise our level. People who are going or are, are at the place where we wanna go, right? So like, if I wanna make, uh, you know, if I wanna make net revenue of million dollars next, next year that goes into my bank account, I need to be hanging out with people that already doing that, right?

[00:15:45] Because that's, they know the road, they know the path. If I want to, you know, be a better father, I need to be around really, really good, amazing fathers, all these things. But then there's this place where I found myself in rooms with people who were, and, and [00:16:00] mostly this is in marriage and in their business, way, way lower.

[00:16:05] They're in much different levels, and I found myself being really judgmental. I'm like, okay, because what happened, Kurt, this is really interesting here. Here's a tip of advice for people on listening to this podcast. If you find somebody that has done something ahead of you, they're, they have some wisdom and you see 'em as somebody with wisdom or knowledge, and you ask them for advice. If you're gonna ask other people for advice after that and not take it, put them out of the conversation. So I, I'd been asked advice by several people who. You know, really need a ton of help in their business, and they're flailing and they're doing the same things wrong over and over again. And I gave them my advice and then they brought this conversation up in a Slack channel and I just told 'em, you guys are completely wasting my time.

[00:16:54] You asked me specifically, I gave you the roadmap, you're gonna get there. Eventually you just [00:17:00] chose not to take it and now you're, you're, you just wasted like 30 minutes going back and forth on this thing. And both of these people talking had talked to me separately about the same thing. And I just about lost my stuff.

[00:17:13] I was, and someone from out in the group texted me privately like, you okay bro? I'm like, I'm tired. And I was having a conversation with the same guy later today and today, this was last week, but I had a conversation with him today and I'm like, I'm really tired of being in these rooms with people that. Just aren't ready to grow. And I think this is where what you and I see all the time, we see dads out there really screwing up. We see families out there not interacting, right? Because we've done a lot of work. And he said, you know, Scott, you're like on the 15th floor. I'm like, okay. He's like, in your business you can just keep riding that elevator up, but it gets pretty lonely.

[00:17:52] Or you can that elevator down once in a while and bring a few people with you. Oh, [00:18:00] so sometimes bringing people with you is, it's risky. They're not gonna listen. They're gonna do the opposite. So people just have, some people have to learn lessons on their own the hard way. And I just thought that was a really good analogy.

[00:18:13] 'cause I really don't want to be on an elevator alone on a really high floor. Uh, so it was just, it was a little bit of an eye-opener for me of there is a purpose in giving to others and putting away judgment and understanding that I used to be that person. How many people have I asked for advice and not taken it, even though they were crushing it?

[00:18:31] And then three years later I'm like, I have this great idea, I'm gonna do this. And it's what they told me three years ago. Right. Uh, so anyway, I just wanted to share that because I thought it was a really sweet analogy of a way that I can start to understand that can still elevate, but I can also come down for a little bit and talk people to maybe to the next level.

[00:18:50] Curt Storring: Yeah, you know what? That's the exact same metaphor that I heard from a man. Um, I think he's about 60 years old that I met with for coffee about a month ago, and I was talking to him about [00:19:00] very similar things, and I, the word that I used, I said, look, I, I used to believe, and that's how I used to think about it and, and I probably still do, even though I'm trying not to, is that I am alone.

[00:19:11] At the top of a mountain and he basically said, you know if, if you find yourself trekking in a mountain and you're alone, you're on the wrong mountain. It's like, oh man, that's so right. But the way that I've been thinking about this lately, because I think about this all the time, I don't know if this is useful for guys, but we're just gonna go for it because there's levels, right?

[00:19:29] I want to be around guys who can push me. Like I, I need people above me. And that has been very challenging for me, either through pride or, you know, like we were talking about before. Maybe I am good at some stuff. And to find people beyond me who I ask for help is so hard because I'm often in that role for other people.

[00:19:49] That's just the business that we run. It's just what happens. I am naturally a leader, and so to find someone like you, for example, like what a blessing. Because I can [00:20:00] legitimately say, here's everything that I don't know what to do with, what would you do? And then trust because I've seen you and I, I get it.

[00:20:07] I know that you know the answer. So there's also then peers, who am I gonna talk to who can just like, Hey, we're in it right now. We're really in this. And then of course, there's the people who you're bringing up. And I think I, at least for me as a man, what I'm trying to do now, what I'm trying to realize, Is I used to think, oh man, I want like 50 mentors.

[00:20:26] want like a hundred friends. I want thousands of men to bring up. And I think the reality is, and this is very important for me to get these mental reframes, I think the reality is if I can find one or two mentors, I am blessed beyond belief. If I can find three to five peers, I am blessed beyond relief.

[00:20:42] And then I just help as many people below me get to my level as possible. I didn't like the math of that at first, 'cause I was like, well, I'm gonna be lonely. What about me? And it's like, dude, the burden of leadership is that you just keep leading. And I think that's something that I've really come to understand and, and maybe I'm wrong in that, but I think that [00:21:00] like guys who are in leadership positions, when I've brought them into the men's groups that we've run, they're like, oh yeah, but I don't want to lead here.

[00:21:05] I don't want to do this. I just want, I want somewhere in my life where I'm not leading. And they always come back to the fact that they just can't help themselves because that is their particular gift or talent. So I don't know. Is that a good way think

[00:21:17] Scott Rammage: think it's a really good way. Yeah, think it's a really good way to think about it. And I was also, I'm, I'm big fan of learning that mentors don't actually have to be someone you talk to as well. Like you absolutely should have somebody that listens to you and calls you on your stuff and, and helps you see in a mirror a little better.

[00:21:35] But sometimes you can increase your, your mentors by reading books and blogs and everything somebody puts out. But, uh, she, this is another example of quality over quantity, right? Like if I can have five really great friends who are kind of emerging at the same level business and kind of going through the same things, I'm in really good shape.

[00:21:58] If can have a mentor or [00:22:00] two, then I'm in really good shape. It's when you don't have any of that, is when you really have to get to work. And so, you know, I've been in that place in my life where I don't have any of that. And then you're sitting there doing everything yourself wrong. Because there's no one calling you out on your bss.

[00:22:16] There's no one calling you out on your absolute blind. We are so blind. How many things are we blind to Kurt? I mean, it's ridiculous, right?

[00:22:25] Curt Storring: I always say we are our own worst enemies because we are our own best

[00:22:30] Scott Rammage: Yeah, yeah,

[00:22:31] Curt Storring: I will always bss myself to make myself more comfortable accidentally, and I've noticed that no matter how disciplined I am, that's my default for so many things. So when I need you, and I needed the other men who were in my life to be able to be like, bro, aren't you?

[00:22:44] Aren't you seeing what's right in front of you? I'm like, Nope, I'm not. Thank

[00:22:47] Scott Rammage: no, not at all. Yeah, I, I think we just need to have other people in our life. A lot of men make this mistake. They, they don't, I. They don't have the right men in their life. They don't have anybody [00:23:00] elevating 'em at all. I'm not saying like shed yourself of all your friends from high school or college, that's not what I'm saying.

[00:23:05] I'm saying get somebody who actually is going to elevate you. you don't have that, have to be incredibly intentional about it. And you to be very vulnerable about, about it. And I think we talked, you and I at least talked about this, is like there's a chance that you'll peek under the hood and they're not who they say they are.

[00:23:20] And then you have to understand that that's a, that's a circumstance, not the rule, right? Like there are people who are good and who look to be what they say they are, but you have to be, you have to use discretion and take time. And that's just, it's a long road. And I think we're, we're gonna touch on that today anyway.

[00:23:38] That good things take time. They really take time.

[00:23:43] Curt Storring: Yeah.

[00:23:44] Scott Rammage: I mean, They really take time. So I've, I've been reading, um, discipline as Destiny, or de whatever it is by Ryan Holiday, and I've kept putting this book off and he's talking about all these things. But one, one thing he said is like a messy, a messy workspace, [00:24:00] uh, is a leads to sloppy work product, something of that nature. I'm like, wow, that's good. That's so true. I don't know about you, but my gym is like set up for flow. Everything is where it belongs. And my, my desk will be set up for flow. Sometimes it gets a little crazy, but then I go and readjust it, right? And that's, and so I posted it and people went off, Kurt, it was crazy.

[00:24:24] It was so like, they're like, that's wrong. I totally disagree. And one gal's like, I can find research that says the opposite. And I said, please, by all means, here's what I said to her. I said, please link the research. But I also understand that you're not really one of those, what did I say? I happen to know that you have been fighting research lately.

[00:24:45] This is around vaccines. Um, and so I was like, you know, research can go both ways, but I kept having person after person. Like one guy who's in the military just said, he's like, that means you're not doing any work. I'm like, [00:25:00] really? I. Wow. And just comment after comment. But what happened in that circumstances?

[00:25:05] I see the way that people view the world, but here's the thing I came up with. If you're listening to the wrong voices, you may think that you are not doing the right thing. I could look at all those replies and think that, man, maybe I'm wasting my time organizing. Maybe one guy said, only neat freaks and crazy people do that.

[00:25:25] Um, I mean, it was just, you know, over and over again and I'm like, maybe I am wrong. But then I stopped and I looked at each, each person, and if one of you's listening, I'm really sorry, but you're not that successful. You really aren't. None of you. One of them's like, I'm super sloppy and I'm incredibly successful. I do this and this and this and this. And all I could think was, you're a slave to your system. You have nowhere to go with where you're working. So I don't know if I really call that success. Maybe you do, but I don't.

[00:25:54] Um, and then so like I, I have so many things wanna say here is. [00:26:00] One, when you've been doing the work for so long, it, you, you start to think that the world operates the same way and sees things same way you do, and they do not. And then also when you feel like people are kicking against you, take a moment and look at, it's not judgment, but understand the place that they're coming from.

[00:26:18] Those people may not want be more successful in their work. They might not want to be higher achieving. And I'm telling, and I'm just telling them right now, unless they get their stuff together, they're not going to be. But, you know, um, their perception of the world is, and someone wrote this, they're like, nobody can view this in their own perception.

[00:26:39] If they're messy, they're not gonna notice that that's just messing, messing with them. I mean, anyway, I'm, I'm all over the board, but I just thought it was really interesting that my perspective, I just figured everyone was gonna agree with me that cleanliness and orderliness is more effective.

[00:26:59] Curt Storring: [00:27:00] This is, a lesson. Well, no. Well, objectively you're right, obviously, because I'm looking around my

[00:27:07] Scott Rammage: We're perfect. No, not.

[00:27:10] Curt Storring: Yeah. Well, no, everyone just did everything like me. The world would be a better place. Um, but that's a very regular thing that my wife and I would butt heads about earlier on in, in our marriage, which was like, I was expecting something perfect so that when there were things around, even if there's a pile of papers, I will organize them and I'll make them neat and I'll put them on the edge of a desk.

[00:27:32] Oh man. Like the relief I feel I've been thinking about that and she's not like that. She's like, well, I'm doing stuff with this and I need to see it. And I've heard the quote about, you know, the, what is it? The, uh, a messy desk is indicative of a messy mind or something. But then other people are like, well, a clean desk or a, an empty desk is indicative of an empty mind.

[00:27:50] So it's like I understand that there are two different ways of looking at this. I personally fall on the neat nly and cleanly thing, but it is interesting to take that into this marriage conversation [00:28:00] to be like, I had to realize. Then my wife sees things way differently than I do, and I've, I've come to call it now like she's, she's like a Mac.

[00:28:09] I'm like a pc. I mean, I'm not like a PC at all. I'm more like a Mac. But let's just, let's just use the analogy. There's a Mac and a PC and we can't talk to each other, right? If I try to install her software on my computer, it doesn't work. And what you have to do then is build a bridge or a port, like, I don't even know computers, but imagine a port that can make a Mac and a PC talk to each other.

[00:28:28] I had to be like, oh, that's interesting. Why do you think that? And it, she's like, well, this, this, and this. And I'm like, oh man, I wouldn't even have guessed that. It would literally have been impossible. So my assumption was, you were wrong because you must be kinda like not as smart as me. And her. Same thing.

[00:28:43] She's like, why are you cleaning up after me? Like, what is wrong with you? You can't let me be, you're so overbearing. And I was like, no, my, I literally feel overwhelmed. When I see a mess, I am cleaning up. And you know what? I have got so much better at that because I finally realized I [00:29:00] wasn't, this wasn't the only way to do things.

[00:29:03] I don't like it, but I love my wife and my family more than I like being clean and right. And so do I have a high standard? Of course, I expect my kids clean up their toys when they're done playing with them. At the end of the day, we clean up. But am I now cleaning up every mess behind everyone every second of the day so I can even play with my kids?

[00:29:21] 'cause I'm too busy cleaning. Not anymore. And it doesn't cause a headache. 'cause I now understand it and I know I get this, honestly, my, you know, some member of my family is very much like this sort of sweeping under his wife's feet while she's making stuff in the dinner, in the, in the kitchen. So, you know, there, there's different ways than yours to do things.

[00:29:41] And when it comes to marriage, I've just found it very important to speak the unsaid assumptions. What do you think a husband's role is? What do you think a wife's role is? What are your expectations for me? And those two questions have been like absolute game changers for us as we've come to [00:30:00] realize that it's not that they're stupid, it's that they have a different operating system.

[00:30:03] So it's, anyway,

[00:30:04] Scott Rammage: It is really good. I mean, it just, it's, you could, it's basically as basic as love languages. If you haven't taken the love language test, you should, that will tell you that your operating systems are completely different. you know, my wife took it just recently and she did a printout and so, um, I'd lost the last printout.

[00:30:23] So I took that printout and I put it on my bathroom counter and really good because I'm like, oh yeah, she's a Mac, I'm a pc. You know, like, whoa, like complete polar opposite of me. But that, it's so funny, we were talking yesterday because you will over time come closer to each other. Or you'll elevate to what is really the best.

[00:30:42] Right. Um, but we were laughing about the places where we started in our marriage and where we are now. Uh, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty funny. She used to take v h s movies and a few guys, any of, you're old enough, you know, the v h s cassettes on, and we had just bookshelves of 'em. We loved watching [00:31:00] movies.

[00:31:00] And she would take like one and just pull it at a different depth than the others. And then she would go to another spot and pull it at a different depth. 'cause I would, she, she'd notice, I was always like pushing, lining 'em perfectly. Right. And she started doing that and she got the biggest kick out of it.

[00:31:16] She like, almost every day I'm like, and I was just going and fixing 'em. And then I finally clued in what was going on and she just roll. She's over there rolling. Laughing at, so she's like, I wonder how long it would take you to figure it out. But you, you know, it's, if that's you, If you're continually pushing the v h s videos back in place, um, just understand that that's an indication that maybe your view of the world is your view of the world.

[00:31:44] And look, I'm not gonna say there's different truths. We're not going there. There's absolute truth, but the way that we operate might be a little different. So, yeah.

[00:31:53] Curt Storring: Yeah. And, and that's super interesting, uh, in that as well because what I found [00:32:00] was, again, man, there's ditches on all sides. And that's why I think like balance is the ultimate equilibrium, which I guess like, you know, that has to be true based on the words. But what I mean by that is I am right for me to be neat and tidy and have a clean workspace.

[00:32:18] I noticed my productivity going down when I had mess in here two weeks ago. So cleaned and now I'm feeling awesome, but What is in that for me? What is in cleanliness for me? Number one, it makes me feel good. So that, that's fine. But number two, the, the ditch that I fall into is, oh, I need to control everything to be able to function.

[00:32:39] Why? Because if I feel out of control, I might do something wrong and someone might blame me for it. Well, what does that mean? Well, it means that I'm, I'm scared of not being perfect because, you know, this is my pattern growing up. And so if you really dig in, if you haven't done the work to rub the edges off of these things, these, these, um, [00:33:00] idiosyncrasies that you've got, yeah, it's, it's right for me to be cleanly for sure, but it wasn't right for me to be cleanly for reasons of scarcity and fear.

[00:33:08] It is okay now because I've, I've got past that and I'm no longer like, hurt by it. But it used to be, this is why I was such a bad father and husband when we first had kids. 'cause I was outta control. I couldn't control a one year old screaming. I couldn't control a one year old coming into my office. I couldn't control the fact that I needed to stop working and go deal with them because I was a father and husband now.

[00:33:29] And that lack of control absolutely shattered me, and it caused me to be angry and irritable and miserable and mean because lack of control for me put me in a position of potential pain because if I couldn't control everything around me, there was a chance that someone was going to get me in quote unquote trouble.

[00:33:49] That was my pattern growing up. So I just wanna like call out the deeper thing here, which is, are you doing the right thing for the right reason? Or are you operating from an old limiting belief? Does that make [00:34:00] sense?

[00:34:00] Scott Rammage: I think a lot of people operate from old limiting beliefs, and if you don't think you are, get a mentor or coach, you'll find 'em out really fast.

[00:34:07] Curt Storring: Yeah, you'll, yeah. Someone who will actually call you out and, and like you say, like, do I have permission to, to say this? I'm like, please. Um, you know what, why don't, uh, why don't we move on to this like millennial thing saw. kind of, want to this because, okay. I almost, I almost try to reel about this, but I was like, I don't know.

[00:34:26] I was too cranky about it because here's the thing. Does this actually matter? Maybe not. But for me, the issue here, and let me just set this up. It's not about what they're saying. It's not about the fact that like, you know, I'm just a grump. It's about the fact that think we're setting a very low bar for fatherhood and for me that's not acceptable because the statistics are so clear.

[00:34:46] Fathers in a home have outsized returns on family, on children, on. Everything. Like it's not negotiable. And therefore, for me at least average is unacceptable. I've got to be the best husband and father I can [00:35:00] be, and I've gotta put everything that I can into being that. So here's what I see on Instagram.

[00:35:04] Two different accounts, like in the, um, the recommended, recommended pile, whatever. I don't know, I don't, don't spend a lot of time on Instagram other than just posting on there. But I, I'm scrolling and I see this like news thing on this Instagram account and it said, millennial dads are spending three times as much time with their kids than their fathers spent with them.

[00:35:23] First of all, you're like, okay, sweet. And then it says in the same breath, back in 1982, and pardon me, if, if anybody has listened or watched, uh, Napoleon Dynamite, you'll understand. This is funny. Back in 82, I could throw a pig ski in a So that's the first thing that I thought. And I was having hard time making reel 'cause I kept laughing.

[00:35:40] But back in 19 82, 40 3% of fathers admitted they'd never changed a diaper. Today that number is down to about 3%. So here's. This scenario, we're spending more times with our kids and dads are finally changing diapers. Hallelujah. Two problems that I see with this, very curious if I'm just [00:36:00] being nuts, um, Scott, but what I'm seeing with this is number one, we're setting a very low standard whoopie do.

[00:36:08] You're spending time in changing diapers, anybody. Can do that. That's not fathering. Number two is we're assigning value to traditionally female tasks. Now, should fathers change diapers? Yes. Should fathers clean up around the home? Yes. Should you do more to serve and lead around the house? Yes. I am not saying that the 1950s were the pinnacle.

[00:36:30] I am saying that we've lost the understanding of fatherhood as masculine, and I don't want someone to call me a good dad because I spend more time probably on my phone, by the with my kids. Just because I'm changing diapers. Like, wow, good job, dad. How many diapers you change a day. That's enough. You know what?

[00:36:49] And it's like a dad. It's like a dad going, Hey honey, I just changed a diaper like my dad didn't. So that gives me license now to go watch the game for three hours in my man cave. Okay babe, I'm a good dad. Don't worry [00:37:00] about it. And so there's two issues that I'm seeing, which is a super low standard. And then like, why are we celebrating that dads are changing diapers?

[00:37:08] Cool, that's not bad. But why don't we celebrate the fact that fathers lead fathers give identity. Fathers affirm their children. Fathers love unconditionally. Fathers set boundaries. Fathers, uh, push their children to reach their potential father's challenge. If I read something that was like, millennial dads are spending three times as much time with their kids as their fathers and their kids are growing up with a solid identity, learning how to treat women.

[00:37:32] Learning how to lead sweet. That's a news article that I wanna get behind. But this, like, I know it's just an Instagram post, but it made me so frustrated that this is the state of fatherhood today. What do you think? Am

[00:37:42] Scott Rammage: Uh, no, you're, you're, you're spot on. They're, they're, they're spouting data without the real things that matter, like you said. So, okay. So they're, they're spending more times with their kid. Does that maybe mean that they don't hold a full-time job? [00:38:00] Does it maybe mean that they're at home a lot because they can't hold a job?

[00:38:03] Does it maybe mean that they're so thing lazy that they're, they're wife is working and they're not and they're cool with that? Because I know guys like that, like, I'm, I'm just stay at home. I'm like, what do you do? Does it, and, and amount of time with kid means nothing because. Unless you say amount of time, intentional focus on your kid because they're, these guys are, are playing games.

[00:38:28] They're on their phone, they're, they're tooling around and, and it, it means nothing. It means absolutely nothing. It also means like there's a lot of people maybe working from home now. There's so many ways you can look at this data. It is not something to be cheering about at all. It's, it's embarrassing.

[00:38:48] It's absolutely embarrass. Like, good for you, you changed a diaper. Yay, yipe. Like, is that how your wife wants her to serve? Wants you to serve her? If you ask your wife, [00:39:00] what could I do today to be a better father and a better husband? Change diapers. She might say that bad of irritation, but that's not really what she wants.

[00:39:07] There's just no way. Um, so I think you are spot on and I think we have to call it out for what it is. It's stupid.

[00:39:16] Curt Storring: That's it.

[00:39:18] Scott Rammage: I, I'm gonna keep it just as about as, as low level as possible. It's stupid. Um,

[00:39:22] Curt Storring: yeah. I just don't want guys to get sucked into that. I don't want to get dad to see that and be like, oh, well I guess I am a good dad. I changed a diaper today. And I'm not saying like, go feel bad about yourself 'cause you're not doing more. I'm saying let's not let this d be the standard that defines what a good dad is.

[00:39:37] Because that, I mean, look at, it's so hard to get into these bigger topics of like society says, but honestly, look around, are fathers celebrated? Is masculinity celebrated? Are men celebrated? Are the characteristics of fathers and men and leaders celebrated? The answer is no. And I see this as just being that slight tiny little piece of the haystack.

[00:39:58] And you know what doesn't, [00:40:00] doesn't really need a whole bunch more, uh,

[00:40:02] Scott Rammage: Oh, I don't know.

[00:40:03] Curt Storring: but it's just a little bit of peace. It's a little piece of this that just drops on the pile that makes you go like, yeah, I guess it is the same to be a mom and a dad. I guess it is good that I'm like around my kids.

[00:40:15] 'cause I work at home, like you said, I guess it is okay that I'm changing diapers. I'm good. It gives you this false sense of security and that is

[00:40:22] Scott Rammage: If that's what start to rate being good dad on, we're in trouble. And it's, it's the same annoyance as people that wear, um, I'm, uh, what do, I'm a I'm not adulting today or tho

[00:40:35] Curt Storring: even

[00:40:37] Scott Rammage: and, and I think that's actually kind of a millennial thing that's happened. And I look at people and like, do you know how big of an idiot you look like right now?

[00:40:46] Like, are so you're a child. And if you look at the, the, a lot of the things going on right now, if you were to talk to Jordan Peterson, he's gonna be telling you that almost every issue we are struggling with [00:41:00] now with transgender and, you know, gender ideation, these things are based around people being stuck in a, in a, in a hierarchy.

[00:41:08] That they're very low in the hierarchy of personal development and growth. And we're basically saying, Hey, look, it's really cool you changed diapers. You're, you know, it's just the dumbing down of society. I don't even know where to go with it. It's so

[00:41:23] Curt Storring: no, that, that's a good point too. Yeah, it, it's, it's, I mean there's, these are some of the things that have like hundreds of thousands of likes on them. I'm going like, man, my, my content strategy is all wrong.

[00:41:33] Scott Rammage: I,

[00:41:34] Curt Storring: Why am I telling people how to be better dads? I should just tell 'em they're good for waking up

[00:41:37] Scott Rammage: yeah, exactly.

[00:41:39] Curt Storring: Um, you know what, that, that was a nice quick little segment. I gotta get that off my chest 'cause I was gonna make a reel about it, but it came off a little bit, uh, a little bit strong for a minute

[00:41:46] Scott Rammage: No real man says anything about changing diapers. You know, a guy does not need to boast or tell anybody the number of diapers he changed. Today you are proving nothing. You ha you are [00:42:00] missing the point of being a man. So, sorry. Yes. Let's move on.

[00:42:04] Curt Storring: Yeah, no, no, that, that is a very good point. And I think that's so counter-cultural. Guys are probably gonna go like, woo. Whoa. What do you mean? Like, I thought we were supposed to be the same. I thought parenting was the same. I thought moms and dads were equal, like Yeah, yeah. Equal in value, not equal in what they do.

[00:42:18] And there are differences. I made a reel on this. This is my most viewed reel that said parenting is not gender neutral. Father's father and mother. And there's very different roles for them. And you know, you can go watch that if you want it. They're, I've never received more hate in my life, which is bizarre.

[00:42:32] Um, but as soon as you call, you know, things true. I guess people hate you for it. But anyway, maybe we'll dive into that another time, but another, I mean, I'll just keep going with other ideas want me to. good? You want me to just going? Alright. One of the things I noticed the other day is, I don't know, it's like a season right now.

[00:42:48] Maybe I needed to share this for someone listening. Maybe this is why it happened in my life. I've noticed a lot of little frustrations. And I mean, this is a bit of a, this is a win, this is a praise item, whatever. Um, I [00:43:00] used to get so angry when I was put upon with annoyance. And here, here's an example.

[00:43:08] The other day I've got a few minutes before work, I'm whipping up a real quick breakfast, a few eggs. That's all I had time for. And I had asked my kids, Hey, do you want this? Do you want that? Okay. I, I set them up with breakfast. I'm standing there with my hot plate and one of my kids is like, actually, daddy, can I, can I have a smoothie?

[00:43:25] And I was like, um, yes. And normally what would've happened, and here's the thing, like you can talk all day about, I could have set a boundary, I could have done this, whatever, that's fine. But in the moment I was like, are you kidding me? And instead I said Yes, and I didn't make face. I didn't do anything.

[00:43:40] Another example of this. Is, um, two nights ago I'm in bed, right? I'm up at four in the morning. I'm doing my workout, I'm doing a hundred burpees. I'm working all day, and then I'm playing with the kids at night. I'm doing stuff around the dinner. I'm helping out, I'm cleaning up, I'm doing all this stuff. I'm busy just like you guys listening.

[00:43:55] And so like nine 30 rolls around. I'm finally in bed. I'm like, oh, thank goodness it's [00:44:00] hot. And then my wife is like, oh, is the uh, back door closed? I'm like, I don't know. You usually do that, is it? She's like, I don't know. I was like, okay, so here's the thing. I could say, that's your job. Why don't you go look?

[00:44:15] And in that moment that went through my head, but what came out of my mouth was, I'll go see. And so I got up out of bed, even though I was like, oh, I'm feeling put upon and I looked, it was not closed. I got to serve my family. And man, this has taken so much work to get to a point where my reaction is, sure.

[00:44:36] I. That would be awesome. I'd love to do that because there was this thing that just came over me before when I was more childish in, in this more immature, where I was like, well, what about me? What about my time? I'm in bed. You better go do that. 'cause you noticed it and it was this blame shifting thing that was really the opposite of leadership, which is to take full responsibility.

[00:44:57] So I don't, I, I don't really know what to say about this [00:45:00] other than maybe we'll get into like how that came about. But do, do you ever have things like this? Are you quick to frustration when you're put upon? And have you dealt with

[00:45:07] Scott Rammage: yeah, I think I think I am, I naturally just do it. Like last night I asked my wife, she went, she took the dog for a walk. 'cause on a podcast really late, and we're laying in bed and I'm like, did you lock the front door? 'cause she went out last, right? And she's like, no. And it was like everything in my soul wanted to say, well, why don't you check?

[00:45:29] I just got up and did it. And I felt really good about myself. And I think it's really good to talk about these things because I want men to understand that your initial response of selfishness is not unnormal, but what you need to do is just do it right now. Yeah. It, it's that servant thing and, and. Guys we're talking to you because you're probably really selfish like we are. And you probably see everything through a lens that like you, your stuff doesn't stink. And you I'm sitting [00:46:00] here thinking about all these things we're talking about and we talk, you and I talk about 'em because we're so passionate about other guys.

[00:46:07] We wanna see men be better fathers and husbands like that's, that's like the paramount for me. I just wanna see guys step up and you know, we, we've been studying we're, we've been students of this for years And so like I was just, I was just contemplating do we sound like jerks? 'cause we're like going through all these problems, but we've been studying this for years.

[00:46:32] And our greatest desire, I just wanna make sure this is very well understood. Our greatest desire is to see men step up. And if we can help you understand the processes we go through, like our initial response is like, no, I'm busy. I'm, I'm, you already asked me for X, Y, and Z I'm not giving you, you know, b I don't need start over.

[00:46:50] I don't need to do like, sure if it's a pot pattern, we gotta address that pattern. But we are human. But what I'm [00:47:00] encouraging everybody to do is start to do the daily little disciplines and start to be intentional so that when you do get put up against the wall with these things you've, you've prepared and you're put yourself in.

[00:47:10] Curt Storring: Yeah. And oh man, the, um, that's a really good point by the way, of like, oh, is guy just a jerk? Like, no, I, I'm operating under the assumption that if you're listening to this podcast, we've already got past the point where you're like, okay, what does Kurt want from this? It's for you not to like, kill yourself because you hate being a dad much.

[00:47:28] Um, 'cause that was nearly my story. That's literally why I started this. And, and the very selfish side things on a much more macro, selfish side of things. I wanna live in a world where your kids are way better than they would've been if you didn't do this work. Because I saw what my behavior was doing to my kids, and if they grew up to be adults like that, this would be miserable world.

[00:47:48] I see lot of dads. You know, not that they mean to, they just don't know how to do the work. And they're raising kids who are gonna grow up to live with my kids and eventually be the guys who are like elected into office and start businesses and stuff like [00:48:00] that. They're not gonna be a very good society if they, if they grow up with, you know, bad dads.

[00:48:05] So that's why very personally, I don't want you to experience what I did. Number two, I don't wanna live in world where your kids are raised by bad dad. Okay? So let, let's just get that outta the way. But, um, the very simple thing here that I think is like profoundly impactful and almost too simple, is just this idea of, dude, if your wife ask you to do something, just man up and do it.

[00:48:28] Like, stop looking for yours, think less about you, and think more about what is the right thing to do, because that is your role as the man, husband, and father. And you will feel at least I do. Maybe I shouldn't. I shouldn't say that I did. And I'm curious if you did. I have never felt so personally fulfilled as when I do the most for my family, other people.

[00:48:50] And that was such a mind f for me because I was like, well, how am I gonna get mine? What about my personal time? What about my self-care, bro? You get way more [00:49:00] when you don't worry about that and you just do everything for your wife and kids. Is that similar to your story or am

[00:49:05] Scott Rammage: No, it's a hundred percent true because we are inherently super, super selfish. Super selfish, and we will get what? It's the whole Zig Ziglar thing, right? Like, um, Uh, now I just lost the saying. I, I went to Zig Ziglar. I lost the saying, but help people get what they want and you'll get what you want. That is, you're not doing it for a selfish reason, but as soon as you start to kind of do it, you understand the way the world actually really works.

[00:49:33] This is in business, this is in marriage, this is in parenthood. If you focus on serving others and being a servant and, and continually just working on yourself, but serving others, everything is going to come full circle and be, and readjust itself in alignment. Now, sure there's some outliers, there's some crazy stuff that happens, but it's, it's rule.

[00:49:54] It's a, it's a, it's a pillar that you can, almost, a principle that you can kind of put a [00:50:00] tack in and be like, yes, this is going to happen. And it's incredibly more and more profound in your business or in your marriage as you do it for your wife. And then once you're doing it for your wife, it becomes a lot easier to do for your kids.

[00:50:13] And then if you're doing it for your kids, that's what they expect the world is like. So they are going to do it for their spouse and they're going to do it for their kids, and it just makes things so much easier and you will be so much more fulfilled. Bottom line, you'll be so much more filled if you hate that your wife doesn't do the dishes you like.

[00:50:32] Uh, just make the decision that that's your thing. Like, okay, I hate that she doesn't do dishes, but obviously that doesn't bother her. So I'm gonna make time in my day to do the dishes. This shouldn't necessarily be the role I'm gonna do, but if it's that important to me, I'm gonna do it. And then over time, there's a good chance she's just gonna start doing them.

[00:50:51] But if not, you're gonna have found joy in, in releasing the control over it. And

[00:50:57] Curt Storring: Yeah,

[00:50:58] Scott Rammage: there's just so much joy on the other side [00:51:00] of trying to control people

[00:51:02] Curt Storring: and you know what? That, it takes so much faith too. It's at first, 'cause you're like, well, if I let go of me, what if I don't get anything back? I'm

[00:51:13] Scott Rammage: or never is gonna

[00:51:13] Curt Storring: to encourage

[00:51:14] Scott Rammage: It's never gonna end. I'm gonna have to everything around the house. My wife's just gonna sit there and watch Oprah and eat popcorn. No, no. Well, maybe she does, but anyway.

[00:51:24] Curt Storring: Well, and then you got conversation that, that's part of the leadership though, right? Like I talk to guys all the time about, and you know, we probably need more than eight minutes to touch this topic. Uh, but I talk to people all the time about, you know, having those hard conversations and leading their wife in that, because sometimes people don't change unless they're pushed on a little bit with a boundary.

[00:51:43] And that's okay to do because Yeah, you don't have to sit by if you're doing literally everything. 'cause I get a lot of guys who come into the program, they're like, dude, I'm already crushing this, this, this, this, this, and this. Like, how can I be a better husband? I'm like, the thing you need to do is start bro.

[00:51:57] And that means having hard conversations with your wife that [00:52:00] shows expectations and boundaries so that you can both get on the same page. 'cause it should be a partnership and sometimes one party or the other. It's usually for the guys I work with, the, the dad isn't stepping up and that's why we exist.

[00:52:11] But sometimes the dad is and the mom isn't. So same things, the, the shoes on the other foot, you can lead her into seeing that lovingly and compassionately while setting expectations and leading. By actually being the one who's making decisions and putting the boundaries in your family up. So that's probably a much bigger

[00:52:28] Scott Rammage: It's big conversation and I've, I've been able to see some things through, in being married for 27 years and being the age I am, I've been able to see things go the very long route and, and come full fruition. And it was worth the work. Right, like with your spouse, so like, I took this, uh, a certification for, as a coach for what's called story work and working on your own language and how you talk to yourself.

[00:52:56] And when you take, or when you elevate yourself, [00:53:00] you notice how everybody else isn't, this is coming full circle on our conversation, right? And I was like, babe, you've gotta take this course. 'cause I started to recognize her self-talk was horrible, just atrocious. And I could sit there and just pound at it and just like, no, take this, take this, take this, take this, take this, take this.

[00:53:17] Instead, I just started rephrasing things and I just started saying, oh, or she would say something, I'm like, oh, you'd probably feel a lot better about yourself if you said X, Y, and Z. And over time she got to a point, she's like, Hey, I wanna take that course. And then she took the certification and now she's helping other people with that language.

[00:53:38] So I guess the, the long game, just like anything discipline-wise, well, you wanna be really fit. You gotta, you're in it for the long game. You wanna be really good at something, you better practice it every single day. And it's the same with your wife. If you want, if you want her to grow, then you better be in it for the long game.

[00:53:56] And you just telling her to do it is probably not the best [00:54:00] approach. So there's this gentle, this gentle art of leadership and guidance, and then allowing for that process to unfold over time.

[00:54:09] Curt Storring: Yes. Oh, I learned that as well, probably the exact same way. And it was, I think about books, um, 'cause I was doing a lot of this work out of necessity. I was horrible. Things were horrible and I was changing. I was like, you have got to read these books and I think you told a story about this too, right?

[00:54:27] Like leaving it out and the same sort of thing. I was like, this is amazing. But what I tried to do was make it exciting in my stories of how I was I would be like, did you just see what I did with, with the kids? Do you, do you see that this took five minutes, not five hours? Here's what I did. It was so awesome.

[00:54:43] And then I just like left it at the excitement. So there, yeah, there, there's a lot of ways to go about doing that. Um, last thing you said discipline. I just want to touch on this because lately, like I'm feeling it right now, man, I have been. Extra exhausted. Part of that is [00:55:00] my training program is ramping up.

[00:55:02] The coach is continuing to give me, you know, hill sprints and all these other crazy things. But we've also been doing this a hundred burpee a day challenge inside the

[00:55:09] Scott Rammage: the that's brutal.

[00:55:10] Curt Storring: It, it is extremely brutal. So last month someone's like, Hey, do you guys wanna do a hundred up a day challenge? And of course we're like, yeah.

[00:55:18] And that's really easy because you're just down in one position the whole time. Burpees on the other hand, are whole body movement. A hundred of those every morning, uh, after a hard workout is really hard. And so anyway, whatever. I'm feeling amazing. It does wonders to my mood to smash those. 'cause every day I'm like, Cursing the guy who made this challenge inside of our group.

[00:55:42] And then when I finish, I'm like, dude, I actually love you because I feel so good. So that's neither here nor there. But this, the, the point of this is I'm feeling like I have a very taxed nervous system right now. I've noticed that I want to eat worse than usual. I notice that like, I want to not really work and [00:56:00] be productive.

[00:56:01] I want to, you know, grab a, a piece of nicotine gum, which I haven't done for a long time. I just wanna do something to give me that quick burst of like dopamine or relief. And I haven't been, I have not done the things that would make me comfortable in the moment. And what I realized, I hear people talk about discipline and willpower and being a savage all the time.

[00:56:24] It's very common in our space and it is very important for me. It's one of the foundational pillars of who I am. But discipline, I. We'll always fail if your long-term why is not important enough to you. And I know that people talk about that sometimes, but what we've seen in my life, in our program, we do it like this.

[00:56:47] Here's your habits. Okay, great. Do the habits. Well, for the first week or two, you're like, this is new and awesome. I'm getting whatever. And then two weeks, three weeks go by, you're like, this is hard. I think I'll take a break. But what [00:57:00] happens? Instead, we get our guys, and I did this, which is why I have the guys do it, to write this thing.

[00:57:05] And I call the leadership and legacy framework. It is a life family vision plan. Who do you want to be at the end of your life? Like it literally starts off, write your own eulogy from your kid's point of view. Who will you want to have been to your children? Take a step back. Take a step back, and we basically build your values, your goals, everything in this so that your habits inform.

[00:57:27] How your life turns out. But the goal you have for your life informs what habits you do. And so when you have a hard time, like me for example, if I'm just feeling uncomfortable and I'm like, dude, I'm gonna go and eat an ice cream sandwich, like, I'm gonna drive to go get a box of ice cream sandwiches, probably like three of them right now.

[00:57:45] 'cause that would make me so comfortable. Instead of doing that, I'm faced with this quandary of number one. I've learned. For me, I said before that I was a, a harsh critic to myself. I've just started being disgusted with my sin. [00:58:00] Like, for example, if I did that, I'd be like, dude, I've, I, I'm revolted by who I would be if I did that.

[00:58:04] And that's very personal. That's not anybody else. But for me, I'd be revolted with who I was. But the bigger thing is, I said that when I'm a hundred years old, I want to be able to squat ass to grass. I want to be fit. I wanna be able to hold my great-grandkids, and I wanna be hiking and have a long, healthy life for my wife and kids.

[00:58:24] And so that I live long enough to see it through and be the leader that they need and help to bring up generations. Like my life vision is so big that a little bit of comfort now pales in comparison to the joy and the hope of reward that I have at the end. And that, I mean, it's, it, I can't remember the scripture, but it talks about that for Christ as well.

[00:58:48] He endured the most debased punishment and humiliation for the hope of reward that was waiting for him. And so if you are trying to be disciplined, like I had a sales call the other day. [00:59:00] He's like, I'm just not disciplined. I'm like, well, why not? Why, why can't you do the thing? He's like, well, I, I don't know.

[00:59:06] And I was like, well, what, who do you wanna be? What do you want of your life? I don't know. I'm like, well dude, those are the things we need to work on. Then. What do you want of your life? What is bigger for your life than the in the moment comfort that's gonna last you like 10 seconds? And if you don't have any of those things, it's no wonder you're not disciplined.

[00:59:24] So anyway, my self respect is so much more important to me than a little bit of comfort. My long-term vision is so much more important to me than a little bit of comfort. And I think that it's important to talk about this in terms of discipline. 'cause I so see so many guys go like, man, I just, I couldn't do it.

[00:59:42] I was disciplined for two weeks and I fell off. And these guys talking about discipline, Jocko, they just different than me, man. So I guess I'll never be able to do it. I don't want you to think that. I want you to get dialed in and I want you to do the small things every day to build the trust in yourself and your relationship so that you can be a trustworthy man of integrity and lead your family.

[00:59:57] So what

[00:59:59] Scott Rammage: Okay, so [01:00:00] gonna simplify this. Super, super easy. My wife does this all the time with her nutrition clients. If you are operating through your day and you forget to brush your teeth, are you not gonna brush your teeth before bed because you forgot to brush your teeth in the morning or at lunch?

[01:00:17] Whatever you do. And people are like, no, gonna brush my teeth. Everything else that's a part of your discipline in your life should be the exact same way. You're going to miss it. You're going to not feel like it. The, the, the important thing is, is to not let that derail you. And also stop saying, I'm not disciplined you, like I am, I'm struggling with discipline in this area right now because your, your language will lead you in the direction that you go.

[01:00:44] There's just. So much research around that. So first of all, I wanna also paint a picture of the future. So I'm super disciplined in my exercise. I'm super disciplined in my Bible reading. I'm super disciplined in my prayer and gratitude. I'm super disciplined. I mean, I have like a [01:01:00] long list of things I'm disciplined in.

[01:01:01] Over the last four months, I have not been super disciplined in my food, but here's where the difference over time makes a big difference. I was like, man, I must be up 15 pounds. I feel like gross. It's horrible. And so I start eating right and I go step on the on the scale. And we're talking about like a four or five months.

[01:01:19] Well, was, I'm up eight pounds, eight pounds. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's easy. That's like two weeks effort to get rid of. And the thing that I realized is that the more that you do it, the more you will notice when you don't. And the more exaggerated it'll feel and the more gross you'll feel and the sooner you will get back on track and having that wrapped around your core, I call it being wrapped around my core values.

[01:01:44] Like, like it's a value of mine to be able to operate and live long and be very productive and interactive with my family. So I need to be fit. As soon as you start to like, you latch onto that thing and you're like, wait, that is so much more important to me than my comfort right now in [01:02:00] this 118 degree weather and going out and working out.

[01:02:03] I literally did that this week and it was insane. People told me I was stupid. I might kill myself, but I still did the thing I knew, I told myself I was gonna do and I felt amazing afterwards. So I'm just saying like, stop doing that language in your head. Move into it until it actually is more uncomfortable to not do it than it is to do it.

[01:02:22] Curt Storring: Mm. Yes. And that will lead you to an autopilot that is so high. Um, just

[01:02:30] Scott Rammage: but then you add on. You're like, oh, well this is easy now.

[01:02:34] Curt Storring: Yeah, yeah. No, the, the, the, um, so for me, I continue to keep wanting to grow, but what I mean by autopilot is when things are hard, like just said, things are stressful. You're moving, you got business, you got this, you got that. When I had, um, Victoria our fourth, I was like, oh my goodness, this is a lot.

[01:02:51] And without the need to be super intentional and with a huge amount of added stress, the autopilot curt, [01:03:00] which would have resorted to. Snappiness and anger and fighting and you know, being a baby because of the long years now of discipline, it was just like smooth sailing. It's like, bro, okay, I'm not, I'm not necessarily growing right now.

[01:03:15] I'm not necessarily giving anyone more than they need, but I am hitting all my marks because it's so natural now. So you gotta find the reason why you're gonna be disciplined and attach the habits to the, the vision, but the payoff is immense. And then, like you say, it becomes a lifetime thing. And then I tell guys in the program, this is maybe the last thing I know we're running outta time here.

[01:03:36] I tell guys in the program, they're like, well, you know, I'm, I'm kind of at this point now where I'm gonna plateau. And some of them will stop doing certain things that got them there. And then they fall back and they're like, oh man, I like, I thought, I don't know, maybe I should change it up. I'm like, dude, unless you trust yourself so much.

[01:03:53] That you're like, you know, I could take a day or a week off and get right back on the horse unless you trust yourself that much. Keep going [01:04:00] for like a year. I don't know what the number is, but like, keep going for a year. And at that point you'll be able to trust yourself that you'll get back on the horse 'cause you've done it enough, but you'll, you won't wanna get off the horse because you see by this point that the reason that you're succe so successful is because of this thing.

[01:04:15] So the, the time when you are able to give up the discipline is the time when you decide you will never give it up.

[01:04:20] Scott Rammage: I agree. then also just get back on the horse. It is so funny when people like Miss one, mark or two, they're like, I'm done. I failed. It's like, well, yeah, you just said it out loud. You did fail. But you could have just said, oh no, that sucked. It was a little step back. I'm back on the horse. No big deal.

[01:04:36] So, uh,

[01:04:38] Curt Storring: What's a

[01:04:39] Scott Rammage: Tenacity and, and, uh, digging in and just doing it.

[01:04:44] Curt Storring: Yeah. Like the one thing that I maybe we'll talk about later is just like long-term perspective. Um, I, I didn't have that for the longest time and I'm learning this, but when you realize like every time someone asks me about 75 hard, I'm like 75, hard, hilarious. Uh, I'm [01:05:00] doing the 75 dad. It lasts 75 years though, not days.

[01:05:03] Um, and it's a long-term perspective that we've got to be in. And so like when you mean you're giving up, bro, one day out of like 75 years, get back on the horse because the only other option is you do nothing and you definitely fail. The other option is you work hard and you might fail, but you probably won't.

[01:05:18] But the other option is you'll definitely fail. So anyway, I think this was, uh, a lively conversation. Scott, thank you very much for taking the time to do this again. And, uh, I guess, yeah, we're

[01:05:28] at

[01:05:28] Scott Rammage: Yeah. It was a little cathartic. Thank you.

[01:05:30] Curt Storring: Oh good. Excellent. Well, hopefully it was, hopefully it was more useful than cathartic for the people listening.

[01:05:36] otherwise, you you can let us know. On Spotify, there's a new q and a thing at the bottom that says, um, let me know what you think, and I'll be posting this on YouTube. This will be one of the first ones that come out on YouTube. I just posted my first YouTube video getting subscribers on there. So Smash, I've always wanted to say this.

[01:05:49] Smash the like button and for real this time because I got something to smash and like, um, I'll put out the show notes, links to Scott dad.work/podcast [01:06:00] anywhere you wanna send him. You got a VA business, you

[01:06:03] Scott Rammage: Uh, yeah. Media

[01:06:04] Curt Storring: and did

[01:06:05] Scott Rammage: Media machine. Virtual assistant. This is, follow me on, uh, Scott Ramage on Facebook and Instagram. You can reach out me. Yeah.

[01:06:13] Curt Storring: Well guys, thanks for

[01:06:14] Scott Rammage: Yeah. Thank you guys.

[01:06:16] Curt Storring: Be, be a man. Just man up and do the hard thing. We'll talk soon.

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