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My guest today is Simon Kotyk.

We talk about the Father Wound in today’s episode.

  • What is it?
  • What does it look like?
  • Do all men have one?
  • How do you heal it?
  • And importantly for dads…knowing that my own children will carry a Father Wound, how do I support them in working through or minimizing this wound?

Simon Kotyk is a men’s coach whose focus is on helping men reach their potential in the world. His work draws upon Jungian Psychology, mythopoetic men’s work and transpersonal philosophy. He is committed to helping men heal their relationships and move forward in their lives.

Find Simon online at:



Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the Dad.Work podcast. Today's guest is Simon Kotyk we talk exclusively about the father wound, and I was expecting to go into a lot more. But it turns out there was just so much there that we we just kept going. And I think this is a super important topic for fathers. As you'll get to see in a moment the father wound is something that we all carry. And yet as fathers, we must therefore be the ones also inflicting this wound onto our child or our children. And so what does that look like? What does it look like to heal from that and to provide your children with the tools they need to heal from that we go into what the Father wound is, how it might play out in your life, and how to heal from that, as well as the importance of coaching and mentors men's groups. Simon Kotyk is a men's coach whose focus is on helping men reach their potential in the world. His work draws upon union psychology, mythopoetic men's work and transpersonal philosophy. He's committed to helping men heal their relationships and move forward in their lives. So with that being said, this is a very important topic, a very important thing that most men need to work on to heal to become better dads. Let's jump in and talk about the father wound. Here we go.

Simon, welcome to the Dad.Work podcast, I'm very excited to have you on I have used you as a coach in the past, I know how much wisdom you have for our dads. So welcome. Thank you.

Simon Kotyk 1:32

Thanks for having me.

Curt Storring 1:33

Yeah, and, yeah, I'm excited to have you. And the first thing that I wanted to do is for men without children, I like to ask them on the podcast to share a little bit about the story that they have with their father. And in some cases, that's a favorite story, they have the father and in some cases, it's simply a bit of a father share. As I know, you are aware, we do this in men's group and share the story of her father. And without it being perhaps maybe as long as we would do in men's work in men's group, I'd love for you to give just the Coles notes version of your relationship or lack thereof with your father so that we can sort of connect you as a son to the men listening who might be fathers themselves to give a perspective that I think is very important, very powerful from your from your share. So would you just walk us through your relationship if you had one with your father, and what that looks like?

Simon Kotyk 2:26

Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. Well, there's, you know, there's three main figures I have to talk about here. So, the first being, you know, the story that I that I shared in men's group that was so impactful on me, about six years ago now, it was was the story of the missing father. So my father was was radically missing in my life from day one. My mother conceived me, she flew back to Ontario with her parents, I guess it would have been 1982 around the summer, and conceived me with my father. And my father from day one, completely denied. And that's not my kid. You know, complete complete denial, you know, sort of, like, you know, like the Jerry Springer episodes come to mind, or, you know, but, but anyways, you know, didn't didn't want anything to do with me. And he was a US citizen, because he had dual citizenship. So he lived in Minneapolis at the time, so. So I came back to, or my mom came back to Vancouver had me so really, no male figure around. And from a very young age, I knew that he was radically missing. My family, like my mother and my grandparents, they didn't tell me any really mistruths about that situation. They were, to their credit, completely honest about it. Which was hard in one sense, but looking back on it now I think it was really important developing development point for me, my character being you know, sort of tied to the truth always. But so, you know, Long Story Short with with with my missing father is I tried to contact him in 2006 2007. So you know, I would have been early early 20s. Mid to early 20s. And I found him on Facebook, added them sent him a message. He deleted his facebook account. And then that was a story that I you know, I originally told him and men's group and you know, that is This is this is a common story with many men, you know, many men don't don't know, their fathers, you know, the, I guess what makes my story stand out a bit is, so my biological father's mother would send me presents every year. So she completely accepted that I was part of the family, you know, legitimate legitimate son, basically, or grand grandson to her. So, again, in my mind, you know, it kind of made the denial of my existence, all too real, in the sense of that, you know, even his own mother was was accepting of me. So, which, which, looking back, I think, was also extremely important. Because I, I did in some sense, have that connection, albeit through the grandmother to that side of the family, which I think looking back was extremely important. But, you know, my life, my life certainly wasn't easy. Growing up as a kid, and knowing that this man was radically missing, and, but also, at the same time holding the knowledge that he didn't, he consciously didn't want anything to do with me, right. But what that sort of engendered in me was the ability to take the perspective of others, I think, at a very young age, and I knew part of me knew in my body at a very young age, that it wasn't really about me, it was more about him. But even despite knowing that intellectually, of course, I still, you know, had had what, what, you know, we refer to as the Father wound, and, you know, it looked like, lashing out at, you know, figures in authority that I deemed to be irresponsible, or who were not responsive or disengaging.

That sort of thing, so on and so forth. So, but the, the sort of uptick to that story was, is that I did have very strong connection with my grandfather. And he, he showed up for me, as a 5354 year old man, quite a powerful, powerful way, taking you to hockey practices, you know, letting me follow him around the workshop and build stuff with him, and, you know, fix, fix, fix the problems around the house, and that sort of thing. So that was really important in my formative years. And I have some stories about him, you know, that I can perhaps tell later on that actually have to do with the sort of topic that you prompt the new with, in the beginning, the wounding between fathers and sons. And then, the third figure, I have to touch on briefly is my stepfather who married my mother when I was 11. And so I had that classic kind of your, not my real dad, type of, you know, animosity going on with him and I and, but also at the same time, we did have a good relationship. And I know, I knew on a quarter level that he did really love me, and that he did do his best. But, you know, he was kind of a contrary figure to my grandfather, because he wasn't very capable in his life. So he had a hard time holding down a job, dealing with money. You know, the outer circumstances, like many things that we see in young men and adolescence, that we that you know, you need, you need mentorship, and you need guidance, too, from a father or from an older figure to sort of get your get your discipline to a place where you can master these things. So So yeah, I had that relationship with Him. And, but in many ways, I kind of had to sort of be the father, or step up in ways like, you know, just to energetically in a sense, support the family. And then later on, into my 20s actually, monetarily support the family. So that's that's important because My bond with him, I think, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't really blame him. Because he, you know, he had a pretty harsh father in many ways and kind of a harsh life. And I also understood that in some, on some level, so that was also a great relationship for me because it sort of engender a lot of compassion and understanding for, you know, for men who just can't seem to get their life together. So So yeah, I mean, that's the sort of, that's the Coles notes version of, of, of the three fathers.

Curt Storring 10:47

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. And I know that just, it brings to mind a lot of pain and sadness, obviously. And I appreciate that you're so open with that, because I think part of the reason why I wanted to share that was to provide some perspective to any dads listening, that like, this is basically the worst end of the spectrum in terms of parenting that you could get to just to completely deny, not show up at all, and just not even accept that there's this human you brought into the world, and it's very sad. And so, you know, there being a parenting spectrum or continuum, not having had that Father, one thing that came up for me is like, Did you ever think there would be one thing from your biological father that would have made his absence almost almost make up for that? Like, would there have been a connection? Would there have been an apology? Would there have been any single thing that he could have done? To make amends for them? For you?

Simon Kotyk 11:53

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, show, you know, showing up certainly, I mean, you know, in some way, you know, and, in a certain sense, acknowledging, like, acknowledging, like, I don't particularly need him to apologize, or even really explain the past, but to show up in a kind of present time way, whether that's, you know, a phone call or whatever, and just being like, Hey, you know, I acknowledge, I acknowledge this, and I acknowledge, you know, my side of it, and, and, you know, I acknowledge your part in it. You know, there's just the recognition being seen, you know, as they say,

Curt Storring 12:35

yes, no, and that's actually exactly what I was going to pull from what you just said, there is that desire as children to be seen. And so important to remember, as fathers, that, that's really all the kids want. And as you share that, from your perspective of having had nothing, and the first thing that comes to you is just to be seen, just to have this recognition. Like, that's very powerful. I think, for me as a dad, and for anyone else listening, it's like, if you can just show up with a little bit of presence. It doesn't have to be all throughout the day, it doesn't have to be like hours at a time just a few minutes of like, wow, hey, son, a daughter, I see right now, like, here's all of me so so thank you, like, I'm, I feel energy in my body right now. Like goosebumps, just with that. So thank you so much. And I guess like this is actually a perfect segue into what I wanted to have you on for which is your expertise with this father wound? So could you explain what the Father wound is for people who might not have understood when you said that before?

Simon Kotyk 13:37

Yeah, and quite simply, you know, the father wound is a is a broad general term that just refers to the the lack of love from the father or the lack of presence from the Father in the household growing up or the perceived lack of presence or lack of love from the Father. And and yeah, that's basically it and and, and I know, you know, most people, in some sense can identify with that. So that's why I used that term.

Curt Storring 14:15

That was gonna be my next question is Does everyone have a father wound?

Simon Kotyk 14:22

In some certainly in in in an energetic sense, yes, or in a psychological sense. You know, not necessarily in the cry quite physical sense like as in my case, but certainly in a psychological sense, I think that every boy or young man at some point realizes that he does have to separate or in the common individual separate from his father and his and his family system. And in in that process is some innate form of wounding or pain inherent in it, because you're, you know, whether that's leaving to go to college or leave, you know, leaving to get your first job or moving out or, you know, really like working with your dad until you're 30. And then starting your own business, starting your own thing, it, you know, and it can come in many, many different forms. But I do think that that doesn't does occur in some way for most men, and sometimes it could be your father's death. You know, and that's, that's okay, too. You know? So I would say generally, yes, that that everybody does have some form of wounding the Father.

Curt Storring 15:38

Right? Okay. That's what I've observed, as well, in my sort of limited capacity of noticing these things. It's not something I work with, like, like you do, but it could even be doesn't have to be this monumental, you know, big t trauma, it could just be like you say, a perceived slight, or a lack or an abandonment, even as a young child. And that can manifest in so many different ways. And so let's just work with the assumption that everyone's got, every man at least has this father wound this, this thing from his father that was either hurtful to him, or that he wanted from the Father, it didn't receive? Because for me, that's a lot of it personally, there's a sense of abandonment, there's a sense of, well, why didn't he do XYZ? For me, and it's this sort of lack of that has caused my own father wound. And so what are some of the ways like for guys out there who going like, oh, I've never thought about this before? How does it manifest typically? Or what are some of the ways that can manifest?

Simon Kotyk 16:37

Um, well, you know, quite commonly, you know, I, what, what I'll see is, you know, whether it's through the men's community or my own, my coaching practice, is lack lack of self esteem, or lack of lack of self confidence. Being that or the, or the overriding feeling of never being authorized, like never being authorized fully in, in their work

or who they are as a person. So that feeling of not being fully accepted, you know, but it can also, you know, it can show up in,

you know, in a mere myriad of different ways, you know, like, it can show up as, as even depression, right, it can show up as, you know, like, the unwillingness to try or, or to say, start something in your life for yourself. I've seen that, you know, very commonly and so, so yeah, I would say those are the two like, among men, I would say, the two kind of poles I describe are, you know, an anime or meaninglessness, we're sort of nihilism on one side of the extreme end of the pole, and, and almost like a narcissism or a self obsession, on the other side of the poll. And both of both of those extremes on the spectrum. Not always they can be caused by other things, but but quite often, can be caused by lack of effective mirroring, mirroring or presence of the Father in the household. You know, whether that's, you know, oftentimes, there's no, there's no, you know, there's no, you can't assign blame. It's just kind of what happened, right? But that's what I what I sort of see. And I see some men can't and you can also vacillate? Why between these poles, you know, like, one day, you're trying to hope You're hopeless, there's no, there's no point in trying, I can't do it. Till the next day, you're out and you're, you know, you're God's gift to basically the world. So that's most commonly how I see it showing up.

Curt Storring 19:21

Okay, thank you. And I, like you said, the lack of mirroring. And so what would it look like in that case, because I think that's a very crucial point for fathers who are at home are able to maybe do something and and we'll get into why this is also important in a second because it does help to have somewhere to do the work. But maybe to talk about that mirroring for a bit. This is something that I see come up a lot in sort of respectful parenting, empathetic parenting is mirroring back to the child and it's a good communication tactic in the first place. But But what is it about that mirroring that that you think, almost guards against this, this wound this grandiosity or, or the, the opposite of that in the ego?

Simon Kotyk 20:07

Um, well I could get a, you know, I get a little bit technical with my answer. Sure. So, you know, When, when, when we're very young, you know, our brains are very plastic and moldable you know, it's why, you know, like, I'm sure you've seen your kids and I see in my, you know, nieces and nephews, just this amazing amount of progress over a short period of time. Like I see them shortly after they're born. And then two years later, they're, they're, they're beginning to speak sentences in English, right? And, and you're just, you're like, Wow, my mind is like, your mind is blown, in a sense, and like, you know, I think every parent and, and most people have had that experience with a child, you know, because they picked up all the stuff they're walking, they're running, they're using tools, you know. And that's, you know, that's necessary for evolution and to learn language and to adapt to society. And that's, and that's, that's a great, that's, that's a great thing about human beings, you know, but the sort of the dark side of that is, when, when we are developing, we're so sensitive to our environment, we're so sensitive to our environment. And it's why, you know, it's a superpower on one hand, and that human beings and you look, we can adapt to any environment. You know, whether it's living in the Arctic, don't replace humans don't lose Antarctica, we live in every other you know. So, we have this incredible neuroplasticity and long developmental period, in order so that we can effectively adapt to our environment. So in modern life, you know, call it the atomic family, that, that is kind of the genesis of our wounding with, with a parent, or siblings or whatever, because we're so attuned to the caregiver, that anything, any any small thing they do is literally going to be imprinted upon our consciousness and our be. So it's such a, it's such a critical time. And it's such a, you know, depending on the child, some children are more sensitive than others, you know, and they're just naturally in their constitution. Some children when they don't, when the presence of one or both parents isn't there, you know, or the parents are, you know, maybe they're working too much, maybe they're fighting in the relationship, maybe there's a bit of unresolved anger in the household, depression, the child effectively absorbs that, but not in an intellectual way, they have to actually absorb it into their nervous system, and into their being. And, and often in later life, then, once the, our brains mature, or, you know, the sort of fancy term is once our meta cognitive structures sort of become more concrete. That initial imprinting becomes a worldview or an ideology. And that's how it shows up as, Oh, it's, it's pointless, no matter what I do any job I get, I'm never going to be, you know, as good as my dad, or as good as my mother, whatever, my grandma, whoever, right. And that, that understanding is sort of crucial, I think, for parents, especially fathers to have and, and, and, and what of course, why I'm why I even always been driven to learn all this stuff is because that that was me, right? Like I was always when I was a kid, super sensitive to my environment. I was always scanning. What was going on learning, you know? So, so yeah, I hope I hope that answers your question.

Curt Storring 24:14

Yeah, no, I it's, I'm glad that you went there. Because I think that like covers, that covers everything around what I was getting at, which is both the environment and then there's like the reflection back to the child. And it's almost like, it's almost like in seeing himself or herself reflected by the parent in a way that's not reactive, but that is validating. It can help to build almost healthy shame in a way because the child learns the boundaries. They see how they present in the world. And in an environment where everything is, as you say, basically becoming a worldview, to then get that feedback from the mirroring within their environment that's going to then set them up later, I think is key. And to do that, without shame, which is a huge thing for me, especially to learn what it looks like to do that without shame, which is like, Oh, hey, when you do this, or when this happens, I feel whatever, whatever my feeling is, I'd like I need this. So you know, you can bring nonviolent communication into it. And then, you know, what I'm asking for is this, rather than, like, Wow, you are, you're rude, you're a jerk, or whatever. And the kid then internalizes that. So there's lots to dig into there. But we'll sort of place that to the side for now. And going back to the Father wound, what I want to go into next is like, okay, let's just, we're gonna set the stage a little bit here, it's important to know where to do the excavation, when it comes to our psyches and our healing journeys, so that we can then perhaps target our healing methodologies, or our insights, or whatever we're going to be doing to maybe work on these things. So assuming that we have all recognized this, assuming we've then done the work, to journal to meditate to maybe get feedback from men to identify this father win or share it amongst men like you dead? How do we, how do we fix this? Like, this manifests in such a deep way for so many of us? Like, what do you do? If you're like, Oh, my God, this is exactly what my problem is this my dad, ah, and you start to curse him and all the rest of like, what is the progression look like? From realization to maybe not fixing it, but to making it whole within yourself? Mm hmm. Well, that's a, that's a big question. Yeah, well, you can just hire Simon, because this is his expertise, but but give us the 30,000 foot view?

Simon Kotyk 26:49

Well, I think, you know, even even right now, what you're doing is bringing your weapon vital awareness, to the, to these topics. Because, you know, we I'm sure, you know, in our men's community, or in our men's group, Samurai brotherhood, and I'm sure you've experienced this, you know, we've seen men, many men come in, including myself, and I'm sure you include yourself in this category. with, you know, one of these, say, Father wounds, symptoms, you know, whether that's lack of self confidence, or whether that's, you know, fearing your own power, or fearing the power of others in the world, or Peter Pan syndrome, which is not basically not growing up, you know, being a boy, you know, well into your adult life, when it's no longer appropriate, or, you know, act acting like a boy and treating other people, you know, in appropriately, so on and so forth. So, I think the first the first step is really owning, owning the ways that you are, an individual may not be fully complete, in terms of their growth and maturity, just fully owning it, and we're fully becoming aware of it. And I think to fully become aware of it, even as an adult, you as a man, you need that mirroring. So you need other men in your life. Which is why I'm such a advocate of men's group and men's community. Because you need you need that energy from other men that reflective energy to to effectively see how you're showing up. And, you know, I lead I lead to men's groups. And it's an integral part of my life. Because I always know there's, there's a part of my psyche, there's a part of my mind that wants to pull me back, always into that childhood place into that regressive place where I don't really believe that other men are going to show up for me. And it's, that poll is so strong, that you know, even for me missing a week, you know, like I have, I have work or I have another seminar or something to go to, and I kind of lead my group, I noticed that in me, energetically rising, rising up that that belief again, like, oh, no one's you know, maybe no one in the group really likes you, you know, maybe maybe they're just there for, you know, their own instrumental reasons. And, you know, so I, you know, obviously I'm a bit of a fringe case, but I think that's a pretty common experience for most men. At least from my experience, from what I can Tell is, you know, most men, in some sense struggle with that on some level. And a good kind of story about that is, and this has happened a couple times in my, in my men's groups is a guy will be leaving, and we'll do a departure ceremony and part of that departure ceremony is sharing gratitude with that man. And he's sitting there at the end of the meeting and his eyes are wide open. And, you know, another man asks her ask him, like, How are you feeling? And they're like, Oh, well, I never knew you guys care to help you this much. And this is sometimes after being in the group for six months, a year, year and a half, two years. You know, so I think, really exploring and getting into touch with that, that side of our selves as men, which is, which is a very painful part, you know, under, you know, understandably, for most men, and, and, and a lot of men don't want to go there. In a sense, right. So, I think, you know, men's groups are such a such a key part of that, for me, personally, supporting men. But then also individual therapy, one on one other one on one group work. You know, even coaching to certain extent, can also be a sort of remedy for this. You know, this much larger, much larger problem that you've identified.

Curt Storring 31:39

Yeah, thank you. So it sounds like ownership and awareness are sort of the two first things just identifying like, yep, this is my truth. sharing that with other men like this is part of, I put together these principles, fundamentals of conscious fatherhood. And one of them is to connect deeply with good men. And I was just talking on I think, the last episode with Steve Parr about how important it was to just have this connection with men. And this is yet another reason why whether it's going deeper with your existing friends, or joining a men's group, that this is so vital, because when was the last time you were asked to share the story of your father, at all, nevermind amongst other men, and never mind them being prodded into being asked about how you feel about that. Like that is, as you said, it's so scary. It is so scary for a lot of men. And that's why sometimes it takes reminding men that like this is courageous work. This is the work that strong men do. So if you think I'm a strong guy don't need to do this, like no, you you do need to do this simply precisely because you are strong, you are courageous, and you can handle and I think that's a good reminder to people like, this is so important. Because in in working through these I have, and I think you've expressed as well like come to wholeness to peace with that part of ourselves so that the shadow stops lashing out. And I think perhaps we'll get to the Shadow Work momentarily. But the thing that I have been thinking, and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about this, is as fathers knowing what we know, now, I think that I see myself delivering father wounds on my son's. And for me, knowing what I know, I feel both fortunate and terrified, because on the one hand, I'm going like, Oh, great. Now I know about this. Now I can see what's happening to them. And like, wow, what am I going to do? Like I see every single time I add to it? And on the other hand, I'm like, Well, at least I know, because then maybe I can help them through it. So is there anything that comes to you because I've got a couple thoughts on this, but is there anything that comes to you, for fathers to maybe leave less of a deep gash in the psyche of sons and daughters? And I think you've probably covered a lot of it already, just with mirroring and showing up and doing your own work. But like, how can I as a dad knowing that I'm causing these wounds, be okay with it and then perhaps minimize the effects? Um,

Simon Kotyk 34:19

well, I think I think it's, you know, a matter of, you know, minimizing the negative effects. But there are there are positive effects of a father wound which of course, is the healthy side of male initiation involves separation from the from the Father in the family system, and that's the healthy side. The negative side is, of course, what you touched on already the shame, you know, being wrong, like there's something fundamentally wrong with my being. So I think you know, you already sort of mentioned being conscious about How your speaking to your children. But of course, you know, like the old Golden Rule of relationships is you can only the level of consciousness in the relationship can only is only going to be what what each party is bringing to it. So when it's when it's a Father, Son and your son's two, it's really heavily dependent upon your consciousness mainly because you know, you're a developed adult so so like you mentioned doing your own work making sure you're supported as a man that you're healthy as a man or as healthy as you can be that that community piece is so important to sort of mitigate the negative sides of, of, of what you may be unaware that you're putting on your children. So even you know, that could be any that could really be anything that could be anxiety that you have about your job, you know, it, it could be, you know, unresolved anger in the relationship or on even on the result, anger and the relationship with your father. Right or grandfather. So just, again, the awareness. And that's kind of the negative side of things. But the positive side, I could I can speak to that a little bit with, you know, with the slaves. Absolutely. I think. So I think, at least for me, there was something very, extremely nourishing about the relationship with my grandfather. In terms of my masculine development, that, you know, probably probably today, you know, I'll tell the story today. This is a different time. But But today this this, you know, he would have been maybe seen as irresponsible, and certainly he was in certain ways, right? But, so when I was two and a half was one of my earliest memories, but when I was two and a half, they had a farm back in Ontario, and there's this giant swamp. And my grandfather would, he had a, he had a drinking problem. So he would, he would drink beer while he was like working on the house stuff. And so by like, you know, six, seven o'clock, you'd often be drunk. Not all the time, but so I think my mom and grandmother Went, went into town, to go do something, you know, go shopping, whatever. And my grandfather was like, you want to go for a canoe ride? And I'm like, Oh, I'm like, hell yeah. You know, and, and I was like, two and a half

Curt Storring 37:47

deep. How can we how can we finish this off? What's it? What's one thing from the work that you do in helping men find purpose, and I love the quote, I'm just gonna drop the quote here, whether or not you run with it, inner peace is the new success. I love that quote. And so maybe just give us like the two minutes of working with Simon, that you think could help for fathers doing this work? Or any just final thoughts on this topic? Before we wrap it up?

Simon Kotyk 38:18

Yeah, well, well, I have to, I sort of have to out myself here a little bit. That quote, you know, your co Captain Jason is actually the one that put that code on my website. Okay, well, I did agree with that. And I was like, yeah, that's very good. Use it. Right. So I, you know, I feel I have to, I just have to be 100% transparent here. But I do agree with it. And, you know, I think, you know, your experience that you touched on a little bit in my experience walking into men's group is, we, in some sense, we're similar because we're both highly capable men. And we were both able to figure a lot of stuff out in life from from not having, say, direct mentorship. So what I what I mean by that is, I've had clients and this is sort of the difference can be the difference between therapy or counseling and coaching is, is that with coaching, we work from the outside in a therapy, just primarily inside out. So in coaching, oftentimes, like you said, Men men have come to me and they've been like, Oh, I think I have a father wounds. And I can, because I've, I've walked some of the way on that path, I can directly mentor them. You know, in whatever way whether that's one session or multiple sessions or whatever, even an email So I think giving men the permission to seek out that direct mentoring. In an area of life, that's not necessarily like a practical physical area of life. That's more of a, you know, metaphysical spiritual dimension of life, which is, you know, healing healing with men. So that's, that's primarily, what I do, I would say is I can I can I help men sort of, I would say make a make sense of their situation, which is step one, make sense? And then step two, I would say is acceptance. And then there's healing that often comes with that, and then direct mentorship. So

Curt Storring 41:00

amazing, okay. And yeah, I think we'll probably wrap it up in a sec. But I think what that shows is, it's so important for guys to be doing any type of work. And you just listed you know, men's work therapy, coaching, there are so many avenues around and like most of the point of the show in this project, is to just like broaden the view of the other man, the other dads out there who might not even know that this is a thing. And you know, Samurai is getting big, but we're only at like, 500 men compared to all the men who needed, we're still, you know, a few billion short. And so it's getting this out, and having people like you to talk to you and work this through, it's amazing that people are willing to spend on making more money or getting a new job or whatever. And the thing that is like most troubling, the thing that brings most problems in their lives, they don't even know they have a problem. So like, you know, spending a few 100 bucks a few $1,000 on coaching, mentorship, maybe it's not like you say a direct physical, like, whatever you get the more money when you finish this program. But like what is a better life worth? What is not suffering so much, where the what is like not screaming at your kids worth, I think that should be worth, you know, 10s and 10s times what's making a little bit more money would be worth in, in a professional setting. So I'm glad that you do this work. Like I said, I've had sessions with you even working through my own leadership, which have helped tremendously. And so where can people find out more about you?

Simon Kotyk 42:27

My website, which is or my Instagram at skotyk there's a there's my emails on my website and also on my, on my Instagram. So any any connecting through me there any in any of those ways as possible, there's also links to like my articles and, and, you know, schedule links for discovery calls. I do. I do do free discovery calls with men. So, you know, like I where I actually block off an hour to two hours, and I'll just talk to a guy so I hear a story so yeah,

Curt Storring 43:09

powerful resource. Okay, Simon, thank you so much. I am super pumped for how this turns out and I think a lot of dads will have benefited so thank you for taking the time.

Simon Kotyk 43:17

Yeah, thank you again, Curt. And yeah, no, I would love to come on again. And you know, this is keep keep up the good work.

Curt Storring 43:25

All right, man. Thank you. Okay, man. So what part of this resonates most with you? What work do you need to do to identify, recognize and accept and eventually heal your own father wound? And how does this change how you interact with your children, there's a lot of work to be done. And there are a lot of good places to start in this conversation. Like always, if you enjoyed this, please follow on Spotify, or subscribe on Apple iTunes. And also feel free to leave a review on iTunes. If you got value out of this. You can find show notes, and everything else that you'll need to follow, leave a review and learn more and to work with us at dad dot work slash pod. That's da d dot w o rk slash pod. type that into your internet browser and you'll find all the details you need. Until next time, thank you very much for listening. This is Curt Storring, saying Thank you, goodbye.

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