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Today’s guest is Traver Boehm.

We go deep talking about:

  • Primal masculinity and how culture and technology have caused many men to lose touch with it
  • Emotional intelligence as men
  • Why every man should join a mens’ group
  • Discovering a divine connection to nature as a man in order to connect with your inner self
  • Being able to step into our power as men by connecting to our head, heart, and balls
  • How we can heal and grow and still be open to the possibility of being hurt again
  • Knowing exactly what you want from a relationship
  • Healthy communication and setting boundaries with your partner to ensure a harmonious relationship
  • Why it’s important to teach our partners how to handle us in conflict and,
  • Grief and healing from a miscarriage

Traver Boehm knows men. How they think, what’s behind their behavior, and most importantly — their unique challenges in the modern landscape.

Traver is the founder of the UNcivilized Men’s Movement, the fastest growing men’s movement in the world. He is the author of Today I Rise, and Man UNcivilized as well as a two time TEDx speaker, men’s coach and podcaster.

Drawing upon an eclectic background ranging from professional bodyguarding and Mixed Martial Arts to a Master’s Degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine and meditation, Traver counsels men, women, and couples on how to better understand men’s mental health and relationship difficulties.

Although he’s not quite sure how to feel about the title, he has been dubbed, “The Man Whisperer” as he has the unique ability to speak to men in a way they can hear and understand.

In 2016 after losing a pregnancy, his marriage, and his business partnership all within weeks of each other, he created a radical year long social experiment to answer the questions, “Who am I and who am I as a man?”

With a passion for people and a unique lens through which to view the human experience, Traver is a highly sought after teacher in the fields of consciousness, intimacy, and personal development.

When not teaching workshops or radically shifting the way men experience their masculinity, Traver can be found obsessing over a single word in front of his laptop, chasing surf around the globe, and being awful at yoga.

Mentioned on this episode:
Man UNcivilized

Find Traver online at:
Instagram: @traverboehm
The UNcivilized Podcast with Traver Boehm

Curt Storring 0:00

Welcome to the Dad.Work podcast. My name is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of Dad.Work. This is episode number 61. Becoming uncivilized healing after divorce and grief with my guest Traver vollum. We go deep today talking about primal masculinity and how culture and technology have caused many men to lose touch with it. Emotional intelligence as men. Why every man should join a men's group, discovering a divine connection to nature as a man in order to connect with your inner self. Being able to step into your power as a man by connecting to your head, heart and balls, how we can heal and grow and still be open to the possibility of being hurt again, knowing exactly what you want from a relationship, healthy communication and setting boundaries with your partner to ensure a harmonious relationship. Why it's important to teach our partners how to handle us and conflict and Grief and Healing from a miscarriage. Traver Boehm knows men, how they think what's behind their behavior, and most importantly, their unique challenges in the modern landscape. Traver is the founder of the uncivilized men's movement, the fastest growing men's movement in the world. He's the author of Today I rise and man uncivilized, as well as a two time TEDx speaker, men's coach and podcaster, drawing upon an eclectic background ranging from professional body guarding and mixed martial arts, to a master's degree in traditional Chinese medicine and meditation, Traver, counsels men, women and couples on how to better understand men's mental health and relationship difficulties. Although he's not quite sure how to feel about the title. He has been dubbed the man whisperer, as he has the unique ability to speak to men in a way they can hear and understand. In 2016, after losing a pregnancy, his marriage and his business partnership all within weeks of each other, he created a radical year long social experiment to answer the questions. Who am I and who am I as a man? highlights of the year include volunteering with the dying as a hospice worker meditating for 28 straight days in complete isolation in pitch black darkness in a Guatemalan hut, living in the frigid Utah wilderness for a month with only a knife, a water bottle and a blanket, but a passion for people and a unique lens through which to view the human experience Traver is a highly sought after teacher in the fields of consciousness, intimacy and personal development. When not teaching workshops are radically shifting the way men experience their masculinity. Traver can be found obsessing over a single word in front of his laptop, chasing surf around the globe, and being awful at yoga. You can find Traver online at man You can also listen to the uncivilized podcast with Trevor bomb anywhere you listen to your podcasts. Guys, this was a fantastic episode. I was very excited for this because I have watched Traver online and seen the work that he is doing for pretty much the entire time I have been doing this work. And it was honestly a pleasure to be able to sit down with him today we jived with a lot of sort of similarities and understandings with what we had experienced in our lives. And it was just a really honest conversation. There's one of those things where you get a guy who's as successful as Traver, who has been in the space for a long time. And you sort of wonder, okay, is this guy just going to call it in is he going to repeat the same sorts of things that he's been saying over and over for the last number of years, and I felt deep presence from Traver on this podcast. So man, I'm first of all, so grateful for you for going here and just being so solid and so present. And guys, I am grateful to be able to share this with you. Because this is a hell of an episode. This one is deep. This one is full of presence and vulnerability, and going into what it means for us to be men in the modern age. So I hope you enjoy this episode. And as I hear in a moment, I make a claim in this episode that I think every man needs to join a men's group. And that's not hyperbole. I truly believe that. And of course, you've heard this on the podcast before but I'm going to invite you in case today is the right time for you to join us in one of our men's groups for dads, you can find out more and apply at That's DAD.WORK/GROUP. I'd love to have you join us if this is the right step for you. With all that being said, let's welcome Trevor bomb to the Dad.Work podcast with episode number 61. Here we go.

Alright dads, I am extremely excited to have Traver balm on the podcast. He is the man behind everything on civilized that you have probably heard about. And the reason I wanted to have him on is because I have been trying to triangulate myself to become this combination of caveman, warrior and monk. And I think the uncivilized ethos is like all of those things. So man, I want you to tell us all about it. Welcome.

Traver Boehm 4:23

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I think you've got it down brother. I think that is kind of the triangulation I was feeling at the time when, when it all came about and then even how its evolved sense was I looked at men and I looked at us, you know, the mass vast majority of us so dropping off some of the outliers and said we're missing the primal culture has told us that primal masculinity is bad unless we need it. Right primal masculinity is scary. It's quote toxic, it's evil. We have to get rid of this

So a lot of men have disconnected from that or even into it can't even blame culture, technology has taken us away from that just technological advances have taken us away from that. And yet it's in our DNA, it's in the fiber of our being. And when when men return to some primal aspect of their lives, their whole lives become better. So is that coupled with, I termed that the divine, but it really is just a connection to consciousness or a connection to emotion or a connection to something bigger than we are. And I found that those two pieces were either both missing and you got a guy who's just in trouble, or one aspect was over emphasized over emphasized at the expense of the other. So you may have some guys that were all primal, like, alright, you know, I'm, I got a pickup truck that's jacked up. I got shotguns in the back, I want all my food, and I haven't had a fucking feeling and 25 years. Okay, total awesome. You got the other hand, where it's guys who were just living and dying by their feelings, and were apologetic about their desires, apologetic about their drive, apologetic about any aspect of masculinity. And it turned themselves into a very effeminate, watered down collapsed version of a man. And I could see both archetypes clearly. And at the time, when I created all of this, I could see the push was more towards the what I call the sensitive New Age guy, and away from the primal aspect of masculinity. And so I just threw this idea out quickly on social media of like, what if we took the both? What if there was a Venn diagram, and in the middle, was this place called uncivilized? A man who was uncivilized, who is unapologetic, about his primal nature was in touch with his primal nature, whether he lived in the city, or he lived in the woods, it was irrelevant, like, was he in touch with his wildness, right? Was he in touch with the generations of men who came before him? That did some amazing shit with their hands with tools with building with, like, penetrating the world with their ideas? And yet was he also emotionally intelligent, connected to something greater than himself, in touch with his feelings? I know that's a scary word for a lot of guys. Has he worked through his wounding as he worked through his trauma? Does he even understand and have an idea that at some point in his life, whether he's, quote, had the most idyllic upbringing or the worst, he's been traumatized. And just that idea, like it exploded my life, Curt, because all of a sudden, guys came out of the woodwork and said, You know what, I don't want to just be the warrior navy seal. And I don't want to just be the vegan feminist poet, but I don't also want to drop both in their totality. Like, I want to be a little bit of each. Why can't I be both? Why can't I do the Yes. And I was like, here's your permission slip for the Yes. And so that was, you know, four or five years ago when masculinity was the hot topic. I don't think it's become less in crisis. We just have COVID and some other things to talk about now that are dominating the news cycle. But I will add, the things that are dominating the news cycle right now are contributing, in my opinion, to even more challenges for men.

Because we have less community, we have less emotional intelligence, we have less permission to reach out and just say like, Hey, man, I don't know what you're doing today. But I'm really struggling. Like that's still culturally not okay. We may not even have the access to resources to actual resources. We say like, well, I'm in I'm in a violent relationship, and I'm not the violent one like, Well, best of luck to you. Or, you know, I'm drinking a lot and I don't know what to do. Well, whenever we're gonna shame you are just you just have a as an option. It feels like, masculinity isn't in crisis anymore. But even more men are in crisis at the moment.

Curt Storring 9:24

Yeah, man, I, we've been talking a lot on this podcast on Instagram about just this balance. And I have been trying to go like, what is the positive version of this? And you just said all of it, like the middle bit is being uncivilized. It's how are how are we cultivating this sense of awareness, emotional intelligence, all this kind of stuff that it takes to securely attach to have brilliant relationships to connect with other men and not be I think John Weinland called them like conscious flow bros, where they're just completely disconnected. Like, I find my own spirituality in being fully aware. Where, and having my feet on the ground at the same time, like you got to be looking upwards while your feet are connected to the ground. And you just said like all those things perfectly, because that's what we're going for here is that balance between getting shit done, and like feeling how it feels to get shit done or not. And that's like this perfect connectedness here. And I wonder, like, my first question other than this was gonna be like, What the hell's wrong with the world man? Like, is this it? Because you seem like the guy that I would ask, what do you see as being? Perhaps more detrimental? You said a couple of things there with COVID Not having the community that we need. But like, where did we go wrong? And how do we get this back?

Traver Boehm 10:43

Ooh, I mean, that's a billion dollar question. I'll defer to a man who I've listened to a number of times, Francis Weller, who said that when dealing he's talking about dealing with our own inner predator, meaning, what's the thing that's coming up in us that we have to do battle with to get to the next evolution of ourselves as men? Is it a lack of self esteem? Is it the wounding is it addiction? Is it whatever the thing is, and everybody knows they have something myself included? He says, in order to, to properly handle that energy, we need two things. We need, quote, The sacred and we need community. So we need to get back to something bigger than fucking Instagram, CNN, whatever the latest drama of the Kardashians is, at the moment, whatever we're being pumped the new cycles pumping into us of why we should hate each other, or why we should be divided divided. We need to replace that with and I say the word sacred. I'm not talking about a Judeo Christian idea I'm talking about go in the woods, go outside, go put your feet on the earth. Go go surf in the ocean, go do something that connects you to nature, which was the first idea of quote God, and then to, you got to have community. And for us men, especially for us, especially, that has to be other men. So how do we combat a massive force of mental health challenge and physical health challenge and stress and fear and all the things that are just crippling human humanity at the moment? One, we find something bigger than ourselves. And two, we celebrate what we do have. And we collaborate in ways that we never have before. And I'm not trying to pitch a men's group here, right? I don't give a fuck have you joined mine or somebody else's, but you got to be a part of some group. We've the lone wolf experiment for the nuclear family for for guys, in particular for everybody have like, oh, no, I'm just this little island in my house in the suburbs that's failed. We can look at just about every metric and say like, okay, we're not doing that. Well. When we don't know our neighbors. You know, two years ago occur. This was bulletin, there's kind of APT timing. I think it was our February challenge or ours, our March challenge in the nation and my men's group was to literally go and this is before I knew anything about COVID. I was like, here's what you guys have to do. Go knock on five doors in your neighborhood, and just be like, Hey, I'm Traver. I live over there. This is what I do. Just want to let you know who I am. Here's my phone number. Anything weird happens in the neighborhood or you need anything, I'm cool. Just hit me up. Like just know your damn neighbors names like that. That was the entire assignment. Like this is, you know, the stretch goal for the month for these guys. Myself included, because I bounced around the world all the time. But I remember and I asked them, this is what it stemmed from, how many of you knew your neighbors growing up? And they're like, oh, yeah, you know, the Johnsons lived here and the Hamiltons lived here, and the Smiths lived here. And yet, I'm like, How many of you know your neighbors now? And it was this kind of blank stare. And so I think we have to get back to that idea that we will benefit by knowing each other, we will benefit by supporting each other. And the idea that we can do it all on our own men especially. It's just a failed concept. Like cool, we tried it, it didn't work, look at our mental health issues. So I think that's the, the answer. And I want to be very clear about the idea of the sacred, meaning. It's got whatever it is, it has your full attention. Right. So when I'm in nature, if I'm surfing, if I'm out in the woods here in the jungle, or Costa Rica, like I do not have my phone. If there's no blurps there's no bleeps there's no vibrations, there's no nothing it's just like me communing with myself. And whatever the energy is that created this whole fucking thing which I'm not going to name that to me is vitally important, especially for men. because we need to realize that we're not the biggest fish in the pond. I think it's very healthy. When guys realize like, Oh, what do you know? I have I'm in, quote, complete control. And then the wind came and just fucked up everything that I owned or like a snowstorm. I think it's helped

Curt Storring 15:20

men. This is so important that is so important that like, I did a thought a post about this on the lack of all in our world today. Exactly. I can't see the stars where I live. And that is a tragedy. Like, if we cannot get the sense of look how flipping small we are. We are basically insignificant. And yet, there's this paradox here where we actually get to choose what's meaningful to us, if we can tap into it. And it's like that, oh, that we can't get any more allows us which you just said to think that like, we're talk shit. We like, do everything. And then one small thing. And this idea came up funny. You mentioned the wind. We're having a big storm here. And I was like, if I didn't have this house, and even though I'm in this house, I can't go and stop this. Like I'm getting pelted. I'm at the drive thru getting the tea from my wife, and there's like sideways rain, like, please let me close this take my order. I don't want to get wet anymore. And it's like, Wow, incredible. And I felt ah, and it like really changed my perspective not really being put in that place more often. So this idea of the Divine of getting close to what really is, is fucking essential. I love the write that up. Thank you.

Traver Boehm 16:33

I love that you use that word. I remember telling my girlfriend a year ago, if I don't have all in my life, I get depressed. And all may be a wave that I think is going to kill me or jujitsu match where I'm like, God, that was just mind boggling. I lost I lost sense of time I lost whatever. But the number one is still in my opinion, nature. Yeah, and I'm not telling guys, you got to go live in the woods. You don't? Yeah, I don't I don't live in the woods. Like I'm live in Denver most of the time. And it's and I've been in the woods. But yet, how many times have we just stood in front of the Grand Canyon, or a couple of weeks ago to workshop we hiked a bunch of people here up to this waterfall, which was you know, 150 feet, just breathtaking, literally breathtaking. And everyone did the same thing. They just stared at it. And like, we didn't have to say anything. There was no like, taking it. Everybody just intuitively their their their nature and quotes was this. Wow, this is going all the time. 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This will be here after I'm gone. This will be here after my kids are gone. And my grandkid. This is phenomenal. Okay. A lot of shit makes sense. That didn't make sense. 45 seconds ago before. So I think that's it's vital man. If we talk about men's mental health, which we do, it's I want the conversation to Yes, pharmaceuticals are they have a place? I'm never gonna say they don't. Therapy is massive. But I really questioned for most men. When was the last time you just went outside and went holy shit. Like that sentence, you just said those two words, holy shit. Let's throw that into the mental health picture. And see if it doesn't do some good just on its own. So I fully love that you use the word off because it is it is vital. And I think it just used to be a part of the deal. Right? It used to be used to be like a weekly prescription or a monthly prescription. And I don't I'm 45 I grew up reading stories of like adventurer of Huck Finn of, you know, Davy Crockett of all these guys. I remember thinking that every day must have been off field for them in the woods in the wild, you know, in the frontier, and I know I'm probably aging and dating myself past what most guys are conceptualizing. But I also don't think you need to go to the Alps. Right? Like, go find this in your neighborhood. I had a guy Curt the other day say, Well, how do I get back in touch with the primal? Right? He's like, I got three kids in private school. I'm an accountant. Like, what do I need to do? Do I need to go like hunt with a bone arrow? I was like, no, just go for a walk, man. do two things. Go for a walk and find something to do that scares you? Right before I get up on a stage to speak, I gotta pee like a mother. Like I'm nervous, my hands shaking, but there's all there's like, there's fear. Like go do something that scares you and you'll have to tap back into that part of yourself. That went okay, I can handle this. This is the exact same fear every every man before me has felt who fought a tiger who hunted a deer who went to war who did all the things and I don't do those things anymore. And I'm personally not advocating that people go, like hunt with a knife or go to war, but you can get on the stage. Right? You can, you can go to an open mic. You can write something, you can say something vulnerable to your wife, you can tell your kids, you love them, you can make amends with your parents. There's a lot of stuff that gets put in that primal category. That just makes your blood rise a little bit and go, Oh, yeah, I'm still alive. Still alive. Okay. Hell yeah,

Curt Storring 20:28

man. Good. Yeah. As you're saying that, I was like, I experienced this the other day in men's group, like a men's group that I lead. And I was like, Oh, shit, it's been I got called out and it's like, you haven't been vulnerable in a long time. Do you think these guys truly have your back and I was like, Ooh, I haven't shared my truth with them in a long time. And I wonder if they can without knowing me. And I was like, I've been leading this group for a long time, really comfortable. And I was like, guys, I am scared because like, I don't know, if you guys really truly have my back. And all I want is like deep friendship. It's only one like, that's that connection. And I noticed in my body, and this is benefit of just like getting out doing that stuff you notice. It's like I was had a little bit of shakes. And I like could feel my heart rate going and like looking around just being seen that, like you said, do some vulnerable with your wife or join a men's group. I know you said you're not telling us to join men's group, I am joined fucking men's group, you know, whether it's, whether it's some other one locally, if you're not in a men's group, man, like, what are you doing? So the the other thing that I'll take that back, join a fucking one of the things that we do a lot with the kids is to go for walks in the forest, we're really blessed in the Pacific Northwest, to have mountains, forest, ocean, all this kind of shit. And even the local ones, like we sort of live in the suburbs. Here, we go out for a little walk. It's not very long, but we will just notice the trees. And I will put my hand on a tree. And I will breathe the tree into my body and my body into the tree. And that's super fucking woowoo don't ask me but like it works, you know. And so my kids now we'll pass a tree, and they will touch the tree. And oh, my god, like that is Yes, right? Yeah, exactly. I'm, I'm also doing that like fist pump thing as they get connected to nature. And I go, Holy shit, this is a huge tree. And it's that holy shit moment. And yeah, you don't have to go, you know, kill Tigers with a knife, like you said, like the counting in your group. Just go outside, take your shoes off, man. Like we did that to take your shoes off in the woods, feel that grounding energy. And just get a sense. I don't know if any of the guys listening to this, I had this experience in a breathwork session, Mother Earth can hold your shit. You know, like, I come from a long line of people who don't really feel like they have support in their families. And so when I felt the support of the earth, and energy that you're talking about, that was like a sacred gift, really, to feel supported by something bigger than me. And I want all the dads listening to know that like, Yes, you got to do that for yourself as you do that for your kids, because we can't become good fathers until we become good men in my mind. That's why we do this kind of work. I'm, I'm curious like when it comes to getting both the primal side, and the sort of meditative spiritual side? Are there like different practices for each side? And then you just like, bring them together? Or how do you get guys? How have you done? Practices, perhaps to cultivate each side without getting lost? In either of them?

Traver Boehm 23:37

Hmm, great question. One of the things I love to do at workshops, specifically of all men's workshops, is I'll teach them first of all, we'll list of like, what are the primal attributes? What are the divine attributes? What have you cut off from from yourself? What are you ashamed of, or afraid of? Or feel guilty for? What has society culture, your family, whatever the patterning or conditioning is disconnected you from? And then I'll have them run through this series Curt. It's a there's an exercise called pummeling from jujitsu or wrestling where it's kind of like hugging and trying to get a interesting lock around a guy's say torso. And so they're fighting for that position. And by fighting I mean, you know, we're doing it at 50% effort, even though everybody bumps it up as soon as it's like, Alright, 50% Okay, let's drop it down from 98. It's 70. Okay, you're not fighting for the world champion. Okay, just do it. You're going to do so they feel what is it like to actually have another body working against them, but it's a friendly body, it's a cohesive body. It's not a angry body. It's not a traumatic body. I'll have them do that for you know, 20 minutes rotating around the room feeling other men feeling themselves, feeling their own power, feeling their own strength, and then immediately break into smaller groups and say, Okay, I want you to stand with your arms at your side and relax to the point where if you relaxed one unit more, you would simply collapse. So you are just holding yourself up with the bare minimum amount of energy and feel what's going on in your body at this moment. And what happens inevitably is they have the permission and the foundation of the primal underneath this experience, and that's what allows them to open their hearts. That's what allows them to actually feel and you'll have guys start crying, you'll have guys start laughing, you'll have guys just have the full spectrum of emotions. Because what the prime, the primal is the protector. And so they know Oh, I was disconnected from that, I'm reconnected to it. Now I have permission to feel my body to get out of my fucking head, to actually go, Well, my heart is beating in my chest, my stomach is tight. I'm feeling guilt, I'm feeling shame, I'm feeling laughter and feeling joy, whatever it is, then I'll hold them there for a minute or two. And say, now you have that practice. So it doesn't have to be pummeling where you need another body. But what if you knocked out 30 Push ups, and then you got up and you just breathe with your arms at your side and aloud, whatever it may be. And this is this is this could be done in like, the 50th floor of a New York City apartment where you're where you're neither primal nor you know, close to consciousness, that can be done anywhere in the world. So I think that's the best way unless you you set your life up, which a number of people have right, I wake up in the morning and meditate for 45 minutes or journal or some connect to some kind of consciousness piece, and then go surf or go Russell, but my life may be different than other guys. Especially I don't have kids. So I know a lot of people listen to this, like 45 minutes in the morning, you fucking kidding me? In the morning, I asked you the question, why why?

Curt Storring 27:02

Yeah, dude, Billy on that one.

Traver Boehm 27:06

But if you have five minutes in the morning, you can do that practice, right, like just tapping back into hitting yourself in the chest, like, Oh, that's right, I'm alive. I'm structure. I'm 3d. I exist in this world. If someone comes through my door, who I don't want, I will physically fucking remove them. Now. I'm also so much more than my physical body. I am nature the same energy that wakes the sun up. And as the leaves growing and doing all this also flows through me. Right? So we can get weird on it. But it does. Like there isn't a separate energy in my life that's like, oh, well, nature is on one spectrum. And then I'm just this unique other entity, because I wear T shirts and type. It's not like that we are the same, the same energy. So I think it's a long answer to a short question. But really having a practice that lets you move, and then a practice that lets you feel and brother that can be 90 seconds. That can be three push push ups and three deep breaths. Right? That's That's it. But as long as your blood gets pumping, and you tap in, you can answer this question, which for most men is really hard. I feel X. How do you feel? Right? How many times have you asked the guy a new guy in a men's group? How do you feel? And he goes, Well, I think. Yeah, I appreciate that. I remember I remember when I said the question the same way, but how do you feel? And He literally says, I don't know, no one's ever asked me before. I've never been allowed to answer or I've been shamed for the answer, or whatever it may be.

Curt Storring 28:47

That's all beautiful. So so good to get the physical and then understand that you're not this fucking unique, something in the world, like, you know, right? You're you're part of it. And finding that space. In it is, again, it's almost all inspiring to be able to do that, like, wow, I can feel and I do exist as part of this. And this is magnificent. I hold in myself some of that magnificence. And that can be perhaps a way for men to just feel allowed to feel these amazing things to understand that like, everything that is awe inspiring outside of themselves exists inside, which I love, which you sort of said alluded to there. And, man, this is so good. This is just like so I feel that my soul being enriched, just being here with you who sort of, in my opinion, get said, You know what, I'm so grateful that we can share this with you guys, because this kind of stuff has taken me a long time to get I'm obviously not perfect, but it has made a world of difference not only in my self, but in how I parent, because this kind of work allows that not to rely on tactics, techniques, like Oh, what was that thing that the coach that I was supposed to say? Like no, you tap into it? You feel all the shit that comes up. And then you respond from that place of, oh, this is really frustrating right now. I feel anger in my chest. And I love deeply the kid in front of me, my child, you know, whatever that looks like. So this is fundamental, I think to being really conscious parents conscious father, and yeah, like all men, obviously. But I feel like things ratchet up a little bit when you've got this other like person or people to to deal with, and how do you bring them along on this journey, as well. One of the things that I wanted to ask about before we get I think I'd like to spend the last sort of half on relationship and your experience with that. But I want to know, could you please tell us about having equal and open access to your head, heart and balls, because men doing meditations on this, being able to access all three of those points, I have used all three points to meditate on decisions, and realize how separate each part of the My body feels on this and to be able to come to a comprehensive understanding of everything that is true in me. Could you just dive into like, what this means and how to cultivate that?

Traver Boehm 31:08

Sure, sure, sure. I think for most men, we live Monday through Friday from the neck up. And then Saturday and Sunday from the waist down. And we miss the middle. We miss the heart, we miss the guts. And I view each is in this this'll sound pragmatic, but it's like my head is a tool. I need to figure out, just listen to these words. I need to figure things out throughout the day. I need to figure things out in my business, I have to figure things out about my life. My my soul, though, what why I'm here, what I'm here to feel what I'm here to experience, how I love how I connect. I don't do that intellectually. And I recommend guys not trying to do that intellectually. That's this middle piece of what are you really here for man? What lights you up? What confuses you, because it lights you up and you don't think if you hear the words that it should light you up? What part of you is like I don't know. I just I really I really love ballet. I really love hunting. I love nature. I love surfing like surfing lives in my heart jujitsu lives in my heart, my Instagram metrics live in my head. Right? By my strategy happens here. And then lastly, how and I'll use the word specifically, how do you penetrate the world? How do you take this thing that in your heart whisper the the notion of hey, I'm going to write a book. Okay, cool. Now I got to come up to my head and go, Okay, what chapters am I going to have? How am I going to lay this whole thing out? Where am I going to sell it? Who's it for yada, yada, but then I got to drop it down below my waist and go, I can fucking do this. This is going to be hard. This is going to be confronting. This is going to be challenging in ways I know, I'm gonna have to deal with myself. I'm gonna have to deal with a predator that says, Who wants to read your shit? No one. No. Men don't buy books. Men don't even read books. What are you even talking about? Who are you to say this thing? Who are you to even stand in this world? And that's when I got to tap back into the thrust of my life. Right? Like literally the energy of my cock, which goes like, No, I'm here to impregnate the world with my ideas. I'm here to impregnate my partner you're talking to bunch of dads, you guys have all done this. Right? You didn't do it from across the couch. You actually got up and got in and thrust yourself into the world. And so I think knowing that I'm not going to impregnate my partner with my thoughts, right? Like that's, I can't think my way No, none of you guys that I'm aware of like thought your way into fatherhood. And none of you are going to feel your partner with that thrust. You're not going to feel the sensitivity like well, my child's hurting right now what do I do? What do I want to do with myself? What's bigger than me? That doesn't happen below the waist. So it's like the understanding that each area and each energy is a separate tool that needs to be used at separate times or in conjunction right to just to take your podcast for example you need all three you need to be able to go okay cool. I have to buy a mic which makes a good I have to which makes good I have to promote this I have to do some things but the idea I imagined Curt was like a punch in your heart was like Hey, I You're not doing a podcast on like widgets, or like or find it some some other concept they like you know what the number three available podcast thing to do right now is I mean you have great hair like men's hair. I could just do hair. You're like no, I want to talk and talk to dads. I want to heal the world. I want to heal men so they become because I'm gonna saw what that's your heart. But then there was a day, when you had to go, I have to hit publish.

All of my insecurities just came up. And to me, that's when you drop down to your balls and go, You know what, fuck it, and you hit publish. So I hope that makes sense. How do you tap into each one? I think there's this times of knowing it's, it's three different permission slips to me, okay, I give myself permission to be smart. I give myself permission to feel and hear things that I can't hear with my ears. And that's in my chest. And I give myself permission to stake some claim in this world for why I was born at this time in this body, in this community, and with this particular message that a few people seem to be resonating with, fuck it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fuck it into the world. Right? That's the different permission slips I think guys need to give themselves. And the challenge is, we feel impotent right now. So many men feel listened to the words feel impotent. I can't do anything about COVID I can't do anything about mandates. I can't do anything about masks. I can't do anything about my marriage. I can't do anything about my in laws. You can, we have to step into that power place and actually connect our heart and our balls together. Right? One of my ethos tenants is show me love without strength. And I'll show you a victim. That's show me heart without balls. And I'll show you a victim. Show me strength without love. And I'll show you a tyrant. That's balls without heart. Right? So I think that I just got chills. It means I know we're talking about the right shit. The the new iteration of men is I'm going to connect all three, I'm gonna just have like this little team on my in my, my board of directors. I've got my head, my heart and my balls. And I'm just gonna go Yeah, right. But it's happened to like, Okay, who do we need to solve? We got a problem coming up, okay. It's a fear based thing. Okay, we're going balls. Alright, it's a feeling thing and a connection thing and an intimacy. We're going heart. I got some analytics and metrics and maybe an Excel spreadsheet I need to work through. Alright, head you're up.

Curt Storring 37:17

That's so so fucking good. Man, I, I've used this idea of like a board of directors for my emotions before, like, anger used to come up used to be read everywhere, like my whole body would just be like, on fire with anger. And I learned this technique where you basically invite the feeling to come and sit with the other feelings that are available to you. Compassion, happiness, joy, sadness, and you're just like, Hey, dude, what's going on? And then he's like, Fuck you forgiving the space. But then he's like, Oh, here's what the problem is. And so I love the idea of putting your head heart and balls onto this team, this like Power team, if you will, to guide your life. Like, yes, it can be useful. And it's, I think, vital, at least in my life, to have men around you to be this sort of Board of Directors for you. But you have one inherently within yourself, which you just outlined beautifully. So thank you so much, man.

Traver Boehm 38:09

My pleasure. My pleasure.

Curt Storring 38:11

I want to switch gears now. Because sure, I as well, I'm getting fired up to be honest, like, I want to go out and punch something now. And not in a destructive way. But like I want to go hit the mats, basically. So so let's just go from caulk to heart here. In relationship, I have a lot of guys who talk to me about divorce, or things are just flat. They're approaching divorce, they think, and you've talked publicly about basically everything falling apart at once for you. And I also see based on social media and your podcast and everything else, you are cultivating now, new relationship and new love. And so where I want to start here is not so much like the story behind that. But how have you healed and grown to be open to the possibility of being hurt again, because that's what I think true. Love gives access to trusting someone with your heart means they can fucking break it. And that's, you have to trust. So what does that trust rebuilding look like for you?

Traver Boehm 39:17

Oh, great question. First thing we have to say. And it just has to be a universal knowing that love and loss are bedfellows. You don't get one without the other. If you if something disappears, and you don't give a shit about it, it's not really a loss. If you love something you intuitively have to know. It's going to leave you at some point either through death or separation that there is no foreverness. And so I think we have to have the courage, especially as men to say I'm going to walk into this situation knowing this has the potential to fuck me up in ways that nothing else can. Right. I know billionaires who have just begun have crumbled at heartbreak. People who more assets and resources and all the things than we will ever know crumbled at heartbreak. And I think that there's an important point that men often miss, which is, we have to build ourselves and our relationship with ourselves first. That wasn't taught to me 12 1314 1516 Whenever I was just like, Oh, my God, that has boobs and winked at me, I will now give all my shit and all my dreams and all my hopes over just for a little bit of access to that. So especially guys who are coming out of a divorce or coming out of a heartbreak and are dipping their toe back in the water.

Have a great life, have an amazing life for you. Right, I teach this course called Kill the nice guy and ask every single guy in it. I don't want this to happen. So please don't tell me that like I'm trying to get rid of women. But what would you change about your life? If women suddenly didn't exist? Would you still do jujitsu? Would you still drive the car that you drive? Would you still dress the way that you dress? Would you still drink and eat and go to the do the things? And if the answer is yes, you would still do the exact same things. You're on point? If the answer is no, you would radically change your life, then brother, you're off track. You got to live for you. And you got to build up like your side of the house, you got to build up this foundation underneath you. So I can tell you the difference between my marriage and my current relationship. If my current partner leaves, I will be devastated. It will be fucked up. But what will be underneath me is an extraordinary life. What wasn't underneath me in my divorce was was there was nothing she I made my marriage, my her my whole life. So when she disappeared, I had nothing to stand on. I felt all the way down to rock bottom. But now I have a movement. I have a mission. I have brothers, I have community. I know who I am. I have hobbies and things that I just do for me not going to say that heartbreak wouldn't hurt. But it's a different experience of everybody gets a heartbroken and it fucking sucks. And a lot of guys end up killing themselves over it. And when I look at it's eight out of 10 Male suicides, right or after a breakup or divorce. I asked myself about those men. How well do you know yourself? How well do you love yourself? How much do you love your life? Do you fucking love your life? And now you've invited someone else into it? Or do you not love your life, you hate your life and you're hoping that that person becomes your Savior. That's where a lot of men operate. And it's, it's tragic, then because that relationship is doomed to fail. And when it does, it will it will bring them down with it. So to dive more into the specifics of your question, I went to a lot of therapy Curt like I had to not heal just from my divorce. But my divorce was an opportunity to go back and go, Oh, my whole life had kind of done things to me that I'd said like well, you know, my, everybody had it worse than me like, look at me, I went to private school, bla bla bla bla bla, I deflected all of the pain and trauma that I did live through. So when I had to fill that in, I want to use these, I'm using these words very consciously, like fill in the hole. And that was then dating and relating from a very different point. Also, here's the deal. Like I studied relationship. For years, I went to relationship workshops, I went to intimacy workshops, but to polarity workshops, I read books, I listen to podcasts, I interviewed people hired coaches, like I actually went, Oh, at 40 years old, I am deficient in this area. I am like less than a white belt. I need to go get on the mat. I need to train for a couple years. Oh, I didn't know what nonviolent communication was it didn't know what polarity was. It didn't know what holding space meant. They didn't realize what projection was, or what like any of the anything. It was your standard or dude was like I know about I'm a gym guy I knew about deadlifting and kettlebells I didn't know anything about relationship. So I tell men all the time. One you got to get yourself whole and not this perfect heal. Like there is no point where you're just like, Ah, I am now ready for relationship because I have no trauma. Right? I think there's a there was a meme about that or something and then it's like 45 minutes later, you're like, are you gonna chew that loud for our whole relationship or what like, get triggered it's,

like allow. But yet most men have these gaping holes of wounds that are just time bombs waiting to go off. So for you guys who are new to this, one, be able to answer this question. What do you want out of these questions? Let's say what do you want? wants out of this relationship. You got to know what you want. Why are you engaged in this to? What are you bringing to this relationship? Here's my, here's my life. I said this to Katie, like, early on in our dating life, I was like, This is my life. This is what I do. This is what I'm going to do. This is the direction I'm going. This is what I foresee for my future. I would love for you to be a part of it. Very different than like, I don't know, what would you want to do tonight? Right? Like that was early on? Not just asking her like, I get it. You may be in love with me. Are you in love with my life? If you're not in love with my life, this we're going to have an issue, because what most men will do will change their life to their own detriment. Right. So that was question two. Question three, I asked her straight up, what do you see yourself bringing to me? And bringing to my life? This isn't it's not a job interview. But I wanted to know, has she even sat down and thought about that? Is she conscious enough to think about that? So those were the basics right? Then we got to dive into just conscious communicating, how do we relate? How are we going to fight? How are we going to argue? What's okay, what's not okay, what's a deal breaker? What's not a deal breaker? What's what lights you up? What turns you on? Like I got, I asked her 1000 questions, she asked me 1000 questions. Because I didn't want to have these these Hiddens in these unknowns. I didn't also want to have her like have a cards that weren't out on the table. Like, this is what I'm into, I'm not going to hide this, I'm not going to like tuck that card in my back pocket and be like, well, that's not really an important card. And then three years down the line, I'm like flashing that card at women who are walking down the street, or whatever it may be, or like pretending that I've suppressed that card. But while if you look at my internet history, it's it's there. Right, which is these common challenges for men. And so I also say post divorce post breakup, enter consciously enter slowly, and recognize that you are allowed to end the relationship yourself. You're allowed to have preferences. You're allowed to say to a beautiful woman, like you know what, I just don't feel like this is going in the right direction. Most like our we've been conditioned to not do that. We've been conditioned to think, well, you're just not making it work. I ended a number of relationships before this one by saying like, I'm sorry, I just don't think we're a great match. Or I don't think this doesn't feel aligned to me. No matter how beautiful they are, no matter how many checkmarks on the paper lined up. I think that's that's really healthy for men. To say, it's also okay for you not to be in relationship for a little while. figure yourself out. Right, figure your life out. What lights you up? Like, that's such a fuckin important question, Curt. What lights you up? And, yeah, when I when I worked through that process, I felt like I was ready. You know, and even felt like I was probably ready beforehand and wasn't. And that's kind of the deal with getting back into relationship. You're like, Oh, I'm super ready for relationship. Oh, my God, I'm not ready for relationship. Oh, super ready for relationship. I'm terrified of intimacy. Oh, you dip your toe in the water, you get it burned. You dip it back in, it gets it catches fire, dip it in and like, Oh, this feels good. Mostly, it's about knowing who you are. And I say again, knowing your makeup. I know what my wounds are. I know what my triggers are. I told her that in the beginning, too. Okay, my ex wife walked out on me, I have some abandonment issues. Right? If you yell at me or say these words, it's going to set me off. So we need to navigate around that. Here's the things that really make me feel uncomfortable in a relationship. Here's what really helps me in relationship. You're you have to teach people like how to how to be with you. Like we don't give each other a user manual. We just sit down and go like, here's my best cards. Let me see your best cards. Okay. And then what do you know, you know, a month later, we have no idea why things are blown up, or we're having an argument that doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. I feel like I'm rambling. But does that help? Does that answer your question?

Curt Storring 49:18

It so good, so good. There's so many things here like we could do each one of those points, communication boundaries, making sure your life is good, like these could be hour long talks on their own. So I strongly suggest if these things are not in your life, you do some deeper work. And with anything we talk about, like do the work that's like, you know, get the COC involved, as you were saying, because there's a lot of heart here. And there's a lot of like, I don't know how I feel about this and we just cling on to this hope that someone's going to complete us and that's something that we've been talking about in our community, which is just like, come in as a fucking full circle and meet the other full circle and basically make the infinity sign with each other rather than coming in as two seas. Try to make a circle out of each other like you Gotta come in as a whole 100%. Like, this is me, let's work together. I love all the communication prompts. He suggested, that has been one of the best things for us as well, which is just like, let's get real clear on what's triggering me. Here's why. And like, Okay, you said this, whatever. There's communication, like nonviolent communication you mentioned. And the last thing that you said about like, teaching people how to handle you, is so fucking important. And this is, this is a problem for me, which I think I referenced earlier with what I was going through my men's group, which is like, how are they supposed to know how to support you as a friend, or in this case, as an intimate partner? If you don't fucking tell them? You know, it seems obvious to us because we're just like this our life, obviously, we know what's going on. But without telling them and you're like, a lot of guys are like, Oh, that's not very sexy. Like, oh, well, what if that causes, you know, whatever, rifts. It's like, well, then like, okay, there's a problem. Why? Why is that a problem for you? Let's go there. And what would it look like to you? If this did happen? What does that feel? What do you feel about yourself? If that happens, like, that's not the problem. The problem is, you can't be vulnerable. And there's, there's a reason behind that. So teaching people how to interact with you, is such a fucking important point. I love that you got in there. So thank you.

Traver Boehm 51:14

I'm sorry. I'm just saying I love the concept of relationship and thinking it's such a fertile ground for people. It's so fertile of self development, self knowledge of expansion of growth of it, it hurts me to look at the numbers of how many men aren't in relationship, and then talk to them. And they just say like, Well, I'm not good at it. Like, well, here's the deal, man, even those of us who quote are good at I teach relationship workshops, I still get in arguments with my girlfriend, I still want to like put my head through the wall sometimes. And then she does, too. There is no relationship that's healthy, that doesn't occasionally have the time where you're like, Okay, we're gonna, I'm gonna go in the other room, I'm gonna put my head to the wall, I'm going to take it out, I'm going to bring it back. Like their relationships don't exist. So I encouragement all the time to be in relationship. And just realize that also, the first one starts with the guy in the mirror. When you know, these are the ways I protect myself. These are the ways I overreact. These are the ways I get mad, because I've it's linked to this thing when I was a kid, like that knowledge is vital everywhere you go. And I'm going to just project that that that knowledge is equally vital when dealing with your kids

Curt Storring 52:34

to eat done, that is exactly right. That's why everything we do courses, men's group, whatever we start with awareness, practices, mindfulness, know yourself, let's talk about like the things and not even talking about, let's feel, and notice what is real for you. You know, so like, if you can't feel what's coming up, if you can't notice as things come up, if you don't know the history and the whys behind your triggers, start there. Why why why, why why all the way back down, and then feel it and move the energy and like, sit with that body experience of trauma, wounding, you know, conditioning, all that kind of stuff, and get very clear on finding that quiet stillness, to learn to notice yourself. As you said before, like, you know, having your kids be able to do this or having your kids engender this in you. It's the same as relationship being a teacher. That's why I think fatherhood is like one of the paths to the greatest spirituality of the greatest awakening, is because in relationship, as you mentioned, you get triggered, like, triggered to shit. Because someone is now like, right there pushing on all your buttons, you're seeing yourself reflected back in the worst way sometimes. And your kids, like, do that on full blast. Like they turn it all the way up to 11. And you're just like, hey, man, remember that time that like, your dad left when you were a kid and like nobody was there for you? And you were crying? Now I'm crying. What are you gonna do about it? Huh? Huh? And you're like, Fuck, I don't know. Like, now I'm triggered. And now I've got to deal with that. Right? So relationship, fatherhood, if you go with the mental reframe, I am going to go in as a fucking student, and not have my shit together and learn from these experiences with these wife, partner, children as your teachers. That's been my single biggest reason that I've been able to like, become even slightly less miserable and start to enjoy life is because I let them guide me because it felt hopeless. That's how bad it was. It's like a there must be something to learn here. Right? So yeah, if you mentally reframe, relationship, fatherhood, there's a goldmine there my opinion. I don't want to miss out on asking you about your experience with miscarriage. And this is a topic that we've talked about briefly on the show before in my episode with my friend Tim deck, and it's not as rare as many men seem to think or people seem to think because I had assumed that you know, this is very rare. Not A lot of guys get this. So it's a very niche topic. And I've learned that it's not. And I can only imagine, and my heart goes out to you and all the men who have experienced this, the fuckin like, brokenness that that must feel like, and I wonder if you can, like what comes up for you, when I asked you to share? Like, is there a healing process? Is there a deep feeling behind that? How can we support men who go through this? And to be able to both honor and transform and moving forward? Does anything come up?

Traver Boehm 55:33

Yeah, thank you. It's, it's just brutal. Or it was for me, right? I remember my ex wife, like it, two, three in the morning, I remember the bathroom light going on. And just being like, Oh, she's she's got a pee or something. And then realizing like, okay, bathroom lights still on. And I think I actually fell back asleep, Curt. And she walked by me and put her hand on my shoulder and woke me up and said, We have to go to the emergency room, I'm bleeding. I think there's something wrong with the baby. And I literally don't think I slept for the next four months. Because every time I close my eyes, I felt that hand waking me up, right. And so I just want to address the fact that that was real. And for so many guys, I didn't know it was a thing. Call me uneducated, call the culture incomplete and sharing it with me. I just didn't think it happened that often. And then, like you said, I got into it. And what, oh, it's almost 50% of pregnancies, or, you know, women have had multiple, once we had it, all of these people came out like, oh, yeah, we had to before we had this or we had our kid and then two miscarriages, and then are twins, and then yada yada. I think what is so hard, is we I felt tasked with taking care of her. This is happening to her. We are in the emergency room, she's in the gown. The doctors are talking to her. The doctors say she may need a procedure. She may not. It's happening to her. I have to take care of her. Yet. There was no one to take care of me. And I didn't know how to take care of me. And I didn't even know something was happening to me. that needed to be taken care of. until much, much later, right? Until actually, a couple months later, when I was drunk and high and jerking off four times a day and going well. Maybe there's something here that I'm not admitting or honoring. But the position I think is so hard for men is how do we protect? How do we provide how do we keep this person who we love and is going through a physical thing safe and going through an emotional thing, while also allowing ourselves to be held. And who do we do it by? Right. That is a conundrum. This isn't a miscarriage, but I will share a way that I've recently I down here this is I'm in Costa Rica had a really gnarly ATV accident a month ago. My girlfriend was sitting on the back with me no helmets, no nothing. We crashed. We both got thrown off of the thing. Both were lying in the middle of a ditch, like my head was cut open. Her foot was all fucked up. We got driven home by some people took her to the hospital, I did all the things. And that afternoon, we went back and forth between holding each other and crying. Where I said to her, like I need I need I need you to hold me right now. Even though I was the driver. I'm okay. She was more badly hurt. I felt responsible. I'm the dude, I'm 190 pounds. I used to fight in a cage and blah, blah, blah. Like that fucked me up. And to her benefit and to her grace. She said it will actually help me. She's saying this if I can also hold you. Because I know this happened to you too. Like, I wasn't the only she's not the only one in the accident. And so it was this beautiful symbiosis of yeah, this this, you're more hurt. This is a beautiful now that you're more she's more hurt than I am physically. Yet we both crashed. We both have this thing that we have to process. What if we allowed ourselves to process it together? And some women may not be able to do that for you. That is why you need them. Had I known at the time what I know now. When my ex wife did ask me flippantly kind of like, you're right. And I was like, yep, you and she went Yep. That we were both lying, and I would have held her and held her through it and gone immediately. to a group of guys and said, I am fucked up. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say I then that's the wording. If we get to like, I don't know what to do. There's nothing to do. That was the problem like how do I, how do I solve this?

Like, do I need a hammer? Do I need, like a weight set? Do I need a calculator? How do I solve this? And so if we go back to the word impotent, like, I felt so fucking useless. And I felt so helpless. And yet, in hindsight, what I know now is if I had gone and taken care of myself and gotten support, then I could have at least stood in front of her a bit more whole and said, Hey, how do I support you? And meant it, as opposed to this clingy, like, I don't know what to do. So how do I fix this? Why aren't you sleeping? Why does your stomach still hurt? When are we going to bla bla bla bla, as opposed to like, hey, that's, that's a sucked in it. That just happened to us. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. I've got I've got a team of guys that are loving me and supporting me through this. What do you need for me? And having her hopefully having enough emotional intelligence, when she has the capacity and the resourcing to say, Wow, this also happened to you. I know it didn't happen in your body, and you're not dealing with the physical stuff. But I want to simply hold you the answer of I'm fine. I'm not going to take that. I'm actually going to insist upon you put your head on my chest. Yeah, this happened to you, too. We're a team, aren't we? That's what I want to speak to men about around this issue. And please, guys, if you have other men in your life going through this, do not bypass it for them, and do not bypass it with them. So when they say like, I'm fine. Yeah, you're fine. And what else? Like was it scary? Was it are you heartbroken? That's still your kid, isn't it? Do you feel helpless? Do you feel like you wish you could do something? Like it's okay, these this is this is normal, what you're going through? What's not normal is was my reaction seven years ago, which was I'm fine. I just need bottle Jack Daniels couple joints and Pornhub and I'm like, Who isn't fine that drinks and smokes and get high and jerks off five times? It's seven in the morning. Like that's clearly the signs of a guy who's Fine. Fine, it's not okay. If you if you've been through a miscarriage or your your partner's had one right now it's okay to not be fine. And say I leave it at that.

Curt Storring 1:02:38

Fuck, man, thank you. I'm gonna stay with that for a second. The The final thing that I'd love to touch on with this is if you've got the time is grief. Because I have noticed in my career has been a very powerful healing tool. And something that I have used to sort of break through a lot of pain, allowing myself to feel grief like that, and allowing myself the understanding that to me, grief is wanting so badly, something that I will never get. And you have to surrender to that feeling. And for me, not related to miscarriage or anything but my grief came from I am deeply inside a three year old boy who wants his mom and his dad to be there for him. I don't want my dad to have left. I want an adult who's big enough to hold my feelings. I'm never going to get that because I'm not three anymore. My parents can't do that for me. And I wonder if there's anything there to close this I would on grief for you. Because going through that. I don't imagine you ever fully grieve, like I'm just thinking about my own father having died. And you know, there's there's still a little bit of grief there maybe never go away. And I've processed it in a certain sense. So is there anything in story that that looks similar to that?

Traver Boehm 1:04:14

Yeah, you know, it's it's such a potent space or a potent energy and I don't want to intellectualize grief, I view grief as like this reservoir that lives in the bottom of my gut. And it doesn't empty and I can I have to just have grace knowing that it exists. And I think simply recognizing that it exists is step one, right at the start of the pandemic. I don't know if you know Connor Beaton. He runs man talks great dude. Great Teacher has his own podcast, and he did a solo podcast on grieving the loss. The difference between the life you thought you were going to Live in the life you're living now. And I was walking around this park, because like, we were just getting out a little bit, and listen to this and was like, wow, this is cool. But like, I don't really have anything like that. And I went and sat down and started meditating, and then was sobbing uncontrollably. Like for 30 minutes, just like the full like snatch, shake sob by myself. I was like, Okay, there's something here. And I'm telling you that because I think most men I know, most men won't even allow themselves to get to sadness. And if we look at this, like, if I look at layers, current, like sadness sits on top of grief. And what do we say we always there's this that that cultural cliche of anger is sadness is bodyguard. Like we're cool with anger, sadness. It's a little feminine, you may cry, and that's not that cool. Grief is the juice grief is the full body snot shakes, loss of control. And I think every once in a while, grief sends like a little tributary up the river of some kind that's like, Oh, that's right. I may have a seven year old right now, or I could have now I gotta go sit down for 15 minutes and just let that be. All right. Oh, my dad is now at a point where he doesn't really know he can't answer questions cognitively. Okay, I gotta sit with that for a few minutes. And just let that be. And also, I think men need permission airy spaces to dive full headfirst into the tributary. And that's often intimate space, we got to deal with this stuff, we have to, we have to admit that our life may not have turned out the way we want it to. Or it did. But there was a cost along the way, or there's something that's happened. And I think, especially as we get older, this is going to be more and more prevalent as more people pass away as people get sick as options that were once open to us become unopen I think the whole world right now is in grief. Just no one's allowed to say it, which is why we're so angry, why we're so reactive, why we're so addicted, all the things, so to speak to it, it's It's potent, like I want to use these words carefully, it's potent, it's like, it's high density material, that you can't live in it forever. Like I can't spend my life in that reservoir, I won't get anything done, I won't get off the couch, I won't, I won't talk to anybody. But if I also pretend that it's not there, and it doesn't exist. It's either gonna make me do some things to keep that knowledge hidden. Like, I'm gonna have to start looking at more porn, I'm gonna have to start drinking again, I'm gonna have to maybe get high, everyone's there. Or I can include it in my life in a practice in a way that one when it does decide to like knock on the door. And like, Okay, I'm going to give you the space. I'm going to sit down, I'm going to sob and I've done this, I'm sure you've done it where, like, wow, I just cried uncontrollably for like 19 seconds. And that was it. That was like griefs little river that came up that day, not three days, I'm not in a breakup, everything's cool. I'm healthy, my everyone's good. But like, oop, that thing just snuck up. And then when it really does come up, we just I just found out two weeks ago that a member of my team close member had died. And I just feel so fortunate to be around my teaching partner Lila, my other teaching partner, one of my best friends, Jeremy and my partner, and I just let them hold me and I just sobbed for and it was you know, five, six minutes, that's it. But I feel like doing that keeps me out of addiction. Doing that five six minute investment of just being like Alright, you guys you ready to see me with like snot running down my face and fully diving into it. Cool. I'm okay with this. Thank you for holding me. And this is why two years from now, I'm not going to be blowing lines off a strippers ass in Vegas telling you that I'm fine. So it's it's an allowance Curt and a permission to just grieve, man like it, just do it and do it consciously and do it with people who can hold you and do it with people who can put you back together again afterwards. If we come back to what we talked about in the beginning, we need the sacred and we need the we need community. And to me touching grief is sacred. It's no one gets out of here without it. And so you have to call grace in to go yeah, this thing happened. My friend died. Okay, all right. I got to both feel that acknowledge it, metabolize it alchemize it and get on with my life. But I love the view to have you know, and I want First getting divorced, I reached out to a girl who had known she she joined my gym when she was a kid. And she was like a photographer and a photographer now in her 30s. And I told her the situation I said, I feel like I have a hole in my heart. But I'm full everywhere else around that hole. And she goes, Oh, so you're a donut.

You know? My advice for green is to allow yourself to be a doughnut. And that's never that's, that's what's gonna happen to you. You're gonna be a doughnut. And that's part that's, that's to me a healthy man. I'll leave it at that.

Curt Storring 1:10:43

Dude, thank you so much. I, yeah, I I just, I see you. And I honor you. And I, you know, hold the sacredness of that grief and man for you to hold that and then alchemize it and share it with the world. Like, it seems like that was a pivotal moment. And now you're sharing this and now you're helping men do the same and you're allowing, you know, these don't have man to walk around as fully authentic humans. And that's beautiful. So I thank you for doing the work you do. And also for showing up today. This has far outstripped my expectations. feel very connected to your energy and I very much appreciate so where can men find more?

Traver Boehm 1:11:29

My book is now on Amazon. Get your hands on men uncivilized. It'll it'll rock your world. You can get it from me too at man uncivilized, calm forward slash the book. I'm on Instagram at Traver Boehm, TRAVER BOEHM I got programs, workshops, courses, like up the wazoo. Most of that or all of it is on the website. Go to I have a podcast, The Uncivilized Podcast. I'm not hard to find. I love talking to men, if any of this resonated with you, hit me up on Instagram and I will get back to you and Curt, thank you so much to for the work you're doing. I believe it. I'm not a dad, but I hope to be and recognize that the greatest opportunity it feels like to shift the consciousness and the trajectory of the planet lies in man's hands and father's hands rather. So thank you for the work you're doing as well.

Curt Storring 1:12:22

Thank you, brother. Okay, well, please check out Traver. It's been hopefully life changing just listen to this fucking podcast to be honest. So thank you, bro. I really appreciate you. Cheers man

that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. It means the world to find out more about everything that we talked about in the episode today, including Show Notes resources and links to subscribe leave a review work with us go to That's DAD.WORK/POD type that into your browser just like a normal URL, dad to find everything there you need to become a better man, a better partner and a better father. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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