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Today’s guest is Will Knowland.

We go deep today talking about:

  • How and why Will lost his job at the UK’s prestigious all-boys school Eton for daring to defend patriarchy
  • The importance of standing for the truth, even at great personal expense
  • How Will led his family through the chaos of being unemployed and losing his home right before Christmas, with 5 kids and another on the way
  • Why being a trustworthy man of integrity is key to a good marriage
  • A father’s role and how Will guides his children to value both temperance and fortitude
  • What history teaches us about the collapse of civilizations and how to take a stand as the leader of your family
  • The fundamental feminist assault on men in the form of promiscuous sex and the damage it does to men, boys, and society
  • Running a religious household despite not having been brought up in one
  • Timeless books to share with your children

Will Knowland has taught English language and literature for 15 years, including for 9 years at Eton College in the UK. He was fired from Eton for a lecture on masculinity for a debating course. He now teaches online.

Will is Roman Catholic and is married with 6 children with their 7th due soon. He also competes in powerlifting.

Find Will online at:

IG: knowlandknows

Twitter: KnowlandKnows

YouTube: Knowland Knows

Unknown Speaker 0:00

If you are the foundation of your family, you are the firm footing. They build their lives on. You carry a glorious burden and you never dream of laying it down. You carry it with joy and gratitude. You show up, even when you don't feel like it. You lead, serve, love and protect. You are a father. This is the dead word podcast where men are forged into elite husbands and fathers by learning what it takes to become harder to kill, easier to love and equipped to lead. Get ready to start building the only legacy that truly matters. Your family

Curt Storring 0:59

welcome back to the data. We're podcast. This is Curt Storring, your host and the founder of Dad.Work guys, it's not every day you get to sit down with someone who's actively trying to be cancelled. This was a fun conversation. Pretty intense. pretty hardcore. I hope you guys get a lot out of this. My guest today is Will Knowland. Will has taught English language and literature for 15 years including nine years at Eton College in the UK. He was fired from Eton for a lecture on masculinity for debating course. And he now teaches online. Well is Roman Catholic and is married with six children with their seven too soon. He also competes in powerlifting you can find him online. Noland knows kn O W El ANDKNOWS, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube everywhere else. That's where he's active. He's putting a ton of great stuff out today we go deep talking about how and why will lost his job at the UK is prestigious all boys school eaten for daring to defend patriarchy and masculinity, the importance of standing for the truth, even at great personal expense, how will lead his family through the chaos of being unemployed and losing his home right before Christmas with five kids and another on the way why being a trustworthy man of integrity is key to a good marriage, a father's role and how will guide his children to value both temperance and fortitude. What history teaches us about the collapse of civilizations and how to take a stand as the leader of your family, the fundamental feminist assault on men in the form of promiscuous sex and the damage it does to men, boys and society, running a religious household despite not having been brought up in one timeless books to share with your children and so much more men, this was a great conversation, we cover a lot of ground, there's a lot of interesting things we go into here. And it's so good to hear from someone who is actively taking that role to defend what he knows to be right. So guys, I hope this encourages you to continue to stand in the truth, even though it's not always expedient will is leading the charge on this and I hope we can take a lot of inspiration from this. Now guys, if you have been enjoying the data and podcasts if you have been blessed by this, if you have learned anything along the way that's made your life as a man husband or father better. Would you please leave a rating and a review, Spotify, Apple, wherever you listen, head on over to the section where you leave rating review, just give quick thoughts or star rating, whatever you need to do, I would really appreciate that because that is how we get this work into the hands of more men. And the more men who do this work, the more families are impacted, the more families are impacted the better the world gets. Guys, the selfish part of this isn't that I want you to review my podcast okay. The selfish part of this is I want to live in a world where more guys get this work guys do the work. More guys have families that understand this and are led by good strong men. So please leave a rating and review and now enjoy this podcast with will Noland All right. Back to another episode of the downward podcast I'm pumped to have Well I heard you on my other friend will read it man podcast. And dude, I was just so pumped because you're just like out there in the battlefield being attacked by the woke mob. So welcome, man, thanks for coming on end. Can you just maybe give us a backstory I've eaten and everything that came in from that. And we'll just go from there.

Will Knowland 3:42

Yeah, cool. I'll try and keep it quick because A is still alive legal case and be it can get so involved. But basically, I've been teaching at the UK is leading all boys school, one of the only remaining all boys boarding schools. So this is like the vast, you know, tradition and masculinity is produced around 20 Prime Ministers. And it's where parents send their kids to get the traditional education. And they've got a debate course, where the older boys about to leave and go into the world, university or business, get exposed to all kinds of ideas that are designed to really challenge them and get them to think and they're not told to sit there and take notes. They're told to disagree with what they're presented with in the lectures. So I was asked to give a lecture on the theme of identity. And I said, How about I talk about masculinity and say that what's currently called toxic masculinity by the American Psychological Association, stoicism, competitiveness, dominance, dominance, etc. These are actually things that women have valued in men over the centuries. And if we look at this from the viewpoint of just secular evolutionary biology, women have selected men to be this way by sexual selection, and yet now being taught to talk sake, it makes no sense. So they said, Okay, that's pretty controversial. Let's do that. So it turned into a defense of patriarchy. And I'm Christian Catholic, but I didn't bring any religious stuff into it. I just kept it all with secular academics. This was a 30 minute talk with about 4045 footnotes, and thought was all well backed up, the kids can get their teeth into this, it's going to be a hard one to refute. Now, they weren't even allowed to hear it. Because a member of staff heard it first pre recorded and said, No way. This is offensive. If the students were allowed to critically debate this, I would feel unsafe, I would feel unsafe for them to hear these ideas, and say why they disagree with them. I just couldn't have the discussion anywhere around me. Now, when I heard this, I was thinking, Okay, I've seen this play out in universities in schools throughout the world. I knew this was coming at some point here, because it's one of the leading institutions and they always go for those, what am I going to do? Fine. The lecture at the college has canceled, I've got no control over them. But you've allowed me to have a YouTube channel. And I've put the disclaimer on that you told me to add, saying it's not college views, that kids can get educated in their free time away from this teacher who want ideas to get discussed in class is my job, my job description to encourage broad based debate and critical independent thought. Now if I can't even do that on YouTube, as someone working for a charity, a minute providing public benefit, where can I do it? I can't do it in the classroom, you ban the lecture. So how about you do it in our own time? No, not even allowed on my private YouTube channel with the disclaimer that they said, so it was a real clamp down on any of these ideas that are contrary to the ones that are normally told about? So it cut to the heart of my job. And then it was a few back and forth. I said, What is wrong with the lecture that you don't like, tell me which bit and I'll edit it out? Let's have a conversation, nothing, just a whole thing. We're not having that viewpoint whatsoever. And it's never been litigated before, is the world first, where a teacher has blocked curriculum content. The UK law under the Equality Act says that the content of the curriculum should be completely exempt. So you can teach whatever you like, no matter how controversial but they think they found a loophole saying, Aha, that only applies to students, not staff, staff can control anything, and if it upsets him, we can't teach it. And to me, that's my job. God, I can't teach if that's the case. Because what happens if someone thinks that a Shakespeare play is upsetting? can't teach that that's happened at some universities, Dickens novel was being cancelled. So this was, to me not a case of like, getting fired, it was more like, my job's already gone. It's disappeared from under my feet while I was in it. And it's not the one that I applied for. So when people say, Well, is it worth losing your job over? Yes. Because it had already gone?

Curt Storring 7:55

Does. It's gross, that's all I can think is can you imagine this person saying this is like what violence? This is violence against me? And it's insane. Because you know, you read about this, you see this over the last number of years, people being canceled, not allowed to have these discussions, but to be in it. And to watch this play out? Did you learn anything about the process that? I don't want to say they the royal they, but did you learn anything about the process that I guess I'll just use the word they are going through to do this in these institutions that might help people see this coming? Or at least start like, I don't know what you do here, man, like, what did you learn along the way here, just as a relates to the whole agenda,

Will Knowland 8:31

one of the things I learned is that you can have all the facts on your side and be able to counter all the accusations, but it doesn't matter. Because ultimately, what you're dealing with is someone who just says, I feel upset. And they're using the law to say that merely feeling upset is all that you need to be able to make the complaint. So if you're going to counter it has to be done, legally. And then you're thinking about, is it reasonable for the person to feel upset like this? And they say, Does it pass the reasonable person test? But the problem is they are the judges of that. Now, if I said, a lecture, attacking the patriarchy made me feel upset. Do you think anyone's going to care? They wouldn't say that's reasonable are going on. Right? So as a symmetrical and you just have to basically recognize that for what it is and accept the consequences. The key thing I really took to heart was the there's no happy ever after just from staying quiet. Like once that is your job. If you go into that situation, day after day, what another 1015 years of biting my tongue work in that same institution watching it goes downhill. That's not a good thing for a man to do and then to come home and have to look his wife and kids in the eyes like what do you do for a living at all? I just watch things I disagree with and I never say anything because I'm so scared of losing that job.

Curt Storring 9:55

Yeah, that's sort of where I wanted to take this is in relation to the family. And I think the first thing is just what you said, is actually taking a stand. Because everything that I see over the last number of years has come from men not taking a stand into what is right, and being more comfortable with getting along to get along. Why is that? And what was different about you? Is this been always how you thought? Is there some worldview that allowed you to take a stand when most men would have crumbled,

Will Knowland 10:22

there's probably a couple of different factors to it. One is doing the job, for the love of it and the passion and really believing in the place when I got the job there. I was excited, it was an honor. This is somewhere that stands for a lot of what I believe in, at least on paper. And then when I saw that it was under attack from this ideology, and how it was being changed from the inside by people in high positions, rolling out the agenda, that's how it all works is always top down. And you get lots of people grumbling about that, and thinking, I recognize this place anymore. But because they acquiesce, because they just roll over and let the change happen. What are they expecting you keep trying to compromise and weakness is just perceived as another reason to advance the attack. So you've got to stand strong while the threat is still relatively small. And the analogy I use is when you watch those nature documentaries, and you see the wolf pack will start to approach the bison. And then if the bison just stand square on an eyeball, the wolves, they're not going to charge bison, they'll get stomped to death. But as soon as they turn and run, don't even if it's just one or two wolves. So right, we've got you now you're afraid. And then that's it, there's not long left for the bison to live then. So you have to stand your ground. And like you say it's weak men who aren't fulfilling their duties as protectors of whatever institutions they work in, but ultimately, of their families. Because if these leading cultural institutions get taken over, then that has a knock on effect of the society that your kids are going to be growing up in 10 years down the line are so

Curt Storring 12:10

Yeah, exactly. And I want to sort of transition into the your own family life being impacted from this. Because one day you go, Hey, honey, I took a stand, which I assume she's going to respect big time because you're not going to be weak, and that's attractive. And at the same time, you're like, I don't know, we're going to do we don't have the income coming in anymore. How did you lead your family through that making sure that your decision to stand firm was either supported or not or whatever? What did that calculus look like as you brought that back to the family.

Will Knowland 12:44

So as a Christian, I've got a biblical view of what marriage dynamics are supposed to be, which is the man's role to lead and protect, and take the stress off the woman so that she can have the freedom to flourish into her femininity at home. So one of my biggest goals, throughout my life has been to make sure my wife doesn't have to work. And I think that if, if you're a guy who's expecting your wife to work outside the home, then that's ultimately feminism, and you pay the price for that. Because the extra stress makes her disrespect you you lose authority, etc. So I was really worried losing my income, thinking that I wouldn't be able to to uphold that role. My biggest fear is my wife might have to work would I ever be employed again, if people see my CV and think this guy, he can be difficult if you cross him, he's made a stand here. And people like that can be difficult to manage. That's the impression it gives no matter how much support I got from students and parents and old students of the college and they signed a petition of over 3000 people saying, I think wills in the right. So the option was do it. And like in the Bible story, you basically take a step out onto the waves, and just hope you're not going to sink because you're walking in truth and you're doing the right thing. So that was the way forward that I took and things have worked out. Okay. But what's the alternative to not doing that? Because this is what a lot of people try to rationalize. Let's say you're scared, you look at the waves and you don't want to take the step out. You don't want to take Christ's hand and trust that he's going to keep you afloat because you walk down the path of truth. Well, the ship's going down. Anyway, you're going beneath the waves if you stay on board. If you take an honest look around yourself and see what the values are of the institution you're working in, what you're staying quiet about and the lies that you are allowing to see put into your soul. And that resentment will build and bleed over into your relationship with your wife and your kids as well. Because you can't view yourself in the way that allows you to carry yourself with the self respect and authority that the family needs to see in the Father. So if you stay is bad, if you leave, it's frightening, but at least you're doing what you believe in, and at least you're walking in truth. So that's the advice I'd give to anyone in a similar situation. And for what it's worth just in case it encourage anybody listening. I wasn't doing eatin for the money, but as a teaching job, it was well paid. It's the most prestigious teaching job in the UK properly. And they provided accommodation for me. Okay, so just before Christmas, in 2020, I found out the my pay was stopping. And I was losing my house. I didn't own another house. This was it. And five kids with a sick kid on the way. So the temptation to stay in the golden cage as a little well. bave pet getting a pat on the head for being a traitor to the heritage that I'm supposed to be defending was strong. Yeah. Like my kids said, my son's got a joke that he's never seen me cry. Apart from my shed one tear. When I found out I got sacked. He's like, what's the story I Dad one, he did one tear. And then he was opening the laptop trying to figure out some way to get some money. So they, they liked that story. And I managed to within a few months, just self employed, go over my income was and right, we couldn't get a house because the paperwork self employed, you can't get a mortgage. And so we had to just see who would take us we couldn't rent anywhere. Because we've got too many kids, we've got a big Mastiff, three cats. It's like who wants that wear and tear on a rental property when you can get someone with two kids. So we were hanging out in a friend's two up two down, little cottage, he had that spare. So we just rented off him until I got enough paperwork to get our own place, which we're now in. And things have worked out well. And it's exciting being entrepreneur self employed and reaching more people than I was able to in the classroom. So looking back on it, it was the right decision. But at the time it was it was scary.

Curt Storring 17:26

Praise God. That's so good. I'm so glad to see that everything worked out when you just lean into that trust, and do the right thing. And that's so like, Dude, that's everything. I think that so many men look for reasons not to do the right thing. Because they're looking for expediency. They're looking for something, even when it comes to serving their wives do the right thing. Rather than what can I get out of this? And you just did the right thing. And look what happened. It ended up working out and it wasn't easy. But I think it's a great lesson for everyone to stand in truth. And to continue with that. And I'm curious if your wife trusted you along this way? Was she concerned? Did she have your back the whole time? What was that relationship like when this was happening?

Will Knowland 18:05

She's used to following me. And sometimes I get it wrong. I'm relatively stubborn. And if you talk to a lot of guys who are more dominant personalities being headstrong, sometimes you do need the edge taken off your bit. So it's important to talk to your wife and have her as feedback, not as someone to have the final say, But seek their counsel. So I've always got into the habit of listening to my wife, because she's very wise about some things where I'll be a bit bullish. And talking to her about this one, I could see that she was 100% behind me, for the reasons I've outlined. Like she was thinking, Okay, we stay, it sounds like financially, it's comfortable. But this experience has shown us that at any time, they could pull the trigger on it. The employers got a lot of power over you like that. Whereas when you're self employed, the market gives you more security. Yeah, I would rather trust my skills in the market than one particular employer having this ideological view that I might clash with. So she understood that there was no happily ever after from staying. And from what I've managed in the past up to that point, including having three kids under age three on very little money but still managing to support our home when I was in my early 20s. She knew I'd make something work. She had the trust in me and she knew what it would do to me to carry on and COC working there. And she knows that's not me. So I got the thumbs up from her and then that was it. Let's go man.

Curt Storring 19:45

Okay, so let's talk about like what it takes to get there in the first place because I was thinking about this the other day. So much of me being able to step out and success in my life has been because my wife is like loyal to a fault. Like will have my back no matter what end That's taken immense action for me to be a trustworthy man of integrity. And I wonder if you saw it the same way in your life where it's like, look, you're gonna have my back, you're gonna support me in this, you're gonna be wise in the ways that I might need you to be wise. And I'm pretty sure you're gonna have my back on this, what did it take? Or what has it taken in your marriage to earn that trust from her?

Will Knowland 20:17

One of the things I want to say first off is, it's not about never making mistakes, because part of being human is that due to Original Sin, our intellects, we get things wrong, like we make mistakes, our willpower is weakened as well, not totally like, it's not like we can just make mistakes, everything we do, but sometimes we get things wrong. And when you do, admit it, show some humility, and more crucially, just learn from it as well. So the idea is that you're showing you're not someone who's just going to keep banging his head against a brick wall, trying the same thing, making the same dumb mistakes. If you've got the prudence to learn from the past and use it to assess the future, well, then this is something that gives people confidence in you. And the other is just explaining the rationale for what your direction is like, what are you following. And for a Christian man, if you're committed to following God, first, the Bible does not say that it's going to be an easy path. A lot of it is saying this is going to be difficult you are in the world, but you're not of it. And you have to accept the consequences of that. So if you've got the dignity and authority that comes from being a follower first, before you try to lead anybody, then I think that gives you overall mission, or plan much more legitimacy and integrity. So the way the marriage is set up is not just the two of you. But for questions. It's God as well as the ultimate authority that the man submits to. And that gets rid of the idea that you're just a proud guy who wants things his own way the whole time. Otherwise, it can come across that way, like, whatever I say goes, no, it's, I'm trying to serve the Lord. And I'm also seeking your counsel in this, but because of the way families work, and in fact, any society, there has to be some kind of authority figure. And that's the man's role. And, yes, this also comes with a lot of responsibility and pressure. But that's an honor to take on. So that doesn't have to fall on your shoulders. Yeah,

Curt Storring 22:30

well said, I appreciate that a lot, because that's, um, I think it's like it's a glorious burden. And the amount of dads that I work with the amount of dads I talked to is, we feel the burden. And yet, we would never dream of putting it down. And that's because we reprieve our wives of needing to carry that burden of leadership of stress of all of that. And that benefits us because it gets, it gets to our core of who we are and what we're designed to do. But it also benefits her so greatly that she can, like you said earlier flourish in the space that you provided by carrying that. And as a dad, I'm going okay, like I'm carrying the family burden. And I want to start unloading some of that burden onto my sons. So I've got three sons, I've got another child on the way I'm not sure. Boy or girl, I'll have to ask the kindergarten teacher and five years from now what the gender is. But I'm curious. You've got six, almost seven kids. Is that right? Yes. Seven? In a few months. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, man. That's so good. I'm so excited for that. And I'm curious what you think your role as a dad is because I'd love to get into a little bit of parenting, from your perspective, from this grounded sort of masculine perspective. What do you take as being your role and how is fatherhood look for you?

Will Knowland 23:39

Well, how about I start with what I was saying in the lecture that got sacked for not mentioning anything to do with Christian revelation, but just keeping it on like, the ground level where most of the secular kids can relate. I talked about how in Professor David Gilmore's book, given a cross cultural study of manhood was called manhood in the making. He said there are three moral injunctions, procreate, protect and provide. And the role that's least shared is protect, because women can also procreate. And they do a fair bit of providing as well in hunter gatherer societies, roots, berries and things closer to home, generally, because they have to have the babies breastfeeding on them. Whereas men tend to do the hunting and things that are further afield. But the protecting no country ever in history has ever conscripted women into frontline combat. Because they're precious. We don't want too many women dying. So, as a man, the idea is that you have to be willing to sacrifice yourself, for your family to protect them. And in modern day society, some guys find that hard to understand because how many of us are being called to put Got ourselves on the line physically, to protect our family from Tigers or whatever it might be woolly mammoths coming to rampage to the campsite, or a neighboring tribe. Now, the long piece since World War 219 45, I think has made people get a bit cocky. And human history is mostly war, punctuated by brief periods of peace. And we forgotten that. So, in recent decades, guys would have been very aware of the call to arms being a thing that might come for them in their lives. So let's not forget that. But the protector role is also moral to and spiritual. So, in a way, me being willing to go through what I did in my job and sacrifice all of that, and put myself under extra hardship was because I was doing something I believe was important for my family, for the wider community of the school as well. And even beyond that, the knock on effect in principle for other teachers as well and other educational institutions, because if this has never been litigated before, and they're trying to do it, someone has to stand against it. And I know lots of people who probably wouldn't, but wish somebody would, and happens to be me, and it's come for me, and I'm up for it. So let's go, that was my response to him. So that's part of the protector role. And it's amazing how when you look at that secular perspective on things, and you compare it to what the Bible says, about marriage being like Christ in the church, and how Christ is the ultimate example of pleading for everyone self sacrifice, unlike any other human being, he chose to be born. And on the cross, he refused pain relief. So this is taking it all the way. So you experience every last drop of suffering voluntarily. So that's the apex of masculinity, the supreme example of protector, even people, for people who don't, strictly speaking, deserve him. So if that's what we have to look up to, and we need our prayers, and we need to get help to take it to that level. But every man can understand on the basic level of just natural law, in even pagan societies, it's a man's duty to protect, and the etymology of that world word is literally like to throw in front of so your body's like a shield. And you need to extend that metaphorically to all areas. This is why I say that if you look at the Muslim mothers in the UK, especially out in the streets, protesting the sex education classes, that they don't like to see in the primary schools that their kids go to, some of those Muslim mums understand masculinity, better than some Christian fathers, who just shrug it off and think, Oh, well, if the school is going to teach that what we're really going to do about it, whereas the most imams are there in the streets with the black card, so you're not teaching my kids, this, kids coming out of the class out of the school. And we're also going to make a fuss to local authorities to so I think there's a lot to be learned there about why protection isn't just physical ad, men feeling emasculated because they haven't got to use their muscles much in their daily jobs, things like that everyone's behind the screen just typing away? No, you're called to it in all kinds of ways.

Curt Storring 28:30

Okay, so the basis of the fatherhood piece, then is this protector role, and it's protecting physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually. And how is that I guess being lived out beyond and maybe this is just it is it just that you are showing them the way like you are the template for that in their lives that literally keeps them specifically and individually? Safe, bye, but also being like, Oh, this is what a man looks like this is who for your sons, I need you to be and for your daughters, this is who I need you to be looking up to marry is that part of the equation for you,

Will Knowland 29:06

in terms of modeling the kind of behavior what you want, if you're giving your wife the opportunity to be a stay at home mother, and getting the freedom and the dignity that comes with that to be truly feminine. And you're showing your daughters through that, that motherhood is valuable. That's really important. If you were instead expecting your wife to go out and work outside the home, and this is downplaying the maternal role, downplaying femininity and seeing real successes in the boardroom as a woman that sends a message to your daughters. So there's that part to it. If you were modeling what self sacrificial masculinity looks like to your sons and giving them something to aspire to, and showing them how you treat your wife and inspiring this respect for the nobility of womanhood, then that's another part of the message. So you can address both daughters and sons with it. And then in terms of day to day duties, as a Christian, I believe that the father's highest role ultimately is trying to get his family to heaven. And he gets himself to heaven by achieving that. So your duties of moral and religious instruction education are right at the top. And they're more important than how much money you make. So your job is just something you do to provide for your family. But your real work starts afterwards. You want to have a job that is contributing to society in a valuable way. And God gives people different gifts to do that. So I've always been good at reading books and explaining them to people and getting them interested in them and asking the right questions to get conversations going. And that's why I've got to the top in teaching profession. My brothers are really good at like things like welding and practical skills, or one of them's really good at art. So they use those skills to benefit people as well. So it doesn't matter what you're good at, just use it to benefit other people, and then get rewarded for that. But the main thing is that after your work day is done, that's when your work starts properly with your own kids and with your wife. That's the reason why you work for them. The work isn't the goal when itself is not the key to your identity is not some kind of yardstick, what you measure yourself against other men, all of those achievements, whether it's financial or particular, accolades, these are all worldly things that you need to stay relatively detached from, because in the final analysis, it's not going to count when you are judged.

Curt Storring 31:50

Yeah, I like that. Thank you for sharing that man. What are some of the specifics that you are hoping to teach your your sons especially because when I look at your your work on Instagram, like I've watched your, your presentation that was, you know, apparently too scary and dangerous to show the kids a number of times. And like, dude, that it fires me up, because it's so good. And it's so obviously true. And I want to just frame like, rather than just say, hey, what about this? What about this? I'm curious if any of the things that you're posting are like specific things that you're hoping to instill in your sons or teach them about the world?

Will Knowland 32:22

Yeah, that's a good question. So from what I've said about self sacrifice already, you can probably guess that that's something I think, is really important. So I think dads should be trying to give boys young boys the opportunity to practice self sacrifice in small ways, whether it's just giving up something they might really want, like a toy that they want to share, or an extra serving of dessert or something, and let a sibling habit, large families are good for this, because you learn about not putting yourself first. And then also, if you look at how a lot of men get misled nowadays, is to do with the very things that St. Thomas Aquinas warned about with a feminist, which is allowing either pleasure to throw you off course, from doing the right thing, you get distracted by pleasure. Or the other form is you get terrified by pain, you get put off the right course because it's too painful for you. So be able to resist pleasure, which is temperance, and being able to withstand pain and endure it, which is fortitude. These I think are things that so many men in their early 20s, maybe even older nowadays, would have benefited from having a bit more of when they were growing up. Now, I don't really get too philosophical or theological with it. With my son, he's only 13. But we do things like in the gym, sometimes. If he's doing some training with me, and he's a bit tired. What does it really feel like doing it? I'll say, Okay, fine. I'm not going to force you to do it don't have to, but you know, you won't get any results that way. And this is how things are outside the gym as well. You don't always feel like doing it. And it makes me laugh because one time he was just sat there and watched me do my workout. And he said, Dad, you must love being able to go to bed after lifting all these weights and just relax, not have to lift any. Yeah, it's nice to rest afterwards bit. It's only nice to rest because I've earned it. And I've done the work. And then sometimes I'll say things like that and he won't carry on with the workout. And I make him but then later on it will sink in. And you'll see you'll come back he's understood it and the next slump of a mood he'll get in he'll push through it. So little things like that. Do it delicately, but do it consistently. And let them see you teaching bye. Example. And this all adds up. Now when it comes to resisting pleasure stuff, I don't go nuts with it like, you know, banning all sweets and things from the house. But I'll make a point, if a pack of biscuits or some sweets goes too quickly, and just say, that way, it went quite fast and it like why why did you eat so many? So quickly? And if I had 10 bags there, would you have just carried on going until someone stopped you? How many do you think is okay, how many did you want, and then that will just give him a little mental check. And we'll have a few jokes about you know, who wants to grow up to be a biscuit monster, you can't just do things that you feel like doing the entire time, just like you can't avoid things that you don't feel like doing the entire time, because both can lead to disaster. So there's small lessons that can be taught before you get into the big explanations of why it's really important. Because you can see where that leads, like when you're 1819. What happens if you just want to have sex the entire time before marriage, which is the way that the radicals got a hold of men in the sexual revolution, given the promise of easy pleasure. And nothing has emasculated men more than that. And this is an angle on feminism that I rile people up with a bit because the truth hurts that promiscuity or fornication is feminism and a lot of guys who are buying into that so called Red Pill mindset where they call it ejaculating and evacuate and just see women as tools for their own pleasure that has been taken further in the ghetto than anywhere else. And it's emasculated men more there than they haven't been anywhere else. Because the state has to step in to the provider role. that previously was the thing that dignified and ennobled men. So this is the irony, what people are taking on as alpha is actually a weapon that was deliberately pointed out men to take away their authority. And people have been too stupid to recognize it because it feels good. While you're doing it,

Curt Storring 37:15

man, yeah, those are such far reaching consequences. Because in the moment, I want to teach these same lessons to it's like, you know, self control, basically, on both sides. And yet, like you said, it's like 1819 years old, if they don't come up with that base of understanding of the small things. And it's so easy to just slip into and like, Oh, who cares? It's just a world today. That's just what we do. Are there other things like that, like I imagined pornography and stuff like that is? I think it's terrible, obviously. But are there other things that are maybe insidiously creeping into the culture and acceptance by men that are slowly degrading their masculinity in a same sort of way? I don't know if that's to sort of broad of a question. But other things like that, that societally society calls acceptable, that we need to be called out on.

Will Knowland 38:00

I think parents can explain that. Just because something is socially acceptable, doesn't mean it's morally acceptable. And there's a lot to be done here. With. If your kids go to school, my kids have had a mixture of school and home school, depending on where we've been in the country. And what's been on offer. I've found that small rural schools tend to be better options and the bigger ones. But if there's something like, for example, the idea that you have to affirm people who identify as trans, for example, because if you don't, you might hurt their feelings. I think this is a subtle form of emasculating messaging to men, because it's asking them to assent to a lie, which is that there's such a thing as trans people, but there aren't, there's just men, and there's women, and you can get men who mistakenly identify as women, but they're still men doesn't make them a different kind of person called a trans person. So once they've accepted this idea that you embrace falsehood, just because at least in the short term, it seems like you're going to get on with everybody better. That's one of the ways in which you produce after 510 years of doing it in your day to day life with not just acquaintances, but sometimes even like close friends and family. That's how you produce the kind of guys who don't really take a stand on anything because they've never cultivated courage. And they've never understood that speaking truth is a form of loving the person you are talking to. Because love isn't just a wishy washy feeling. It's about doing what is objectively good for the other person, and sometimes that involves correcting them. Let me give you a husband and wife example to make it a bit clearer. If your wife's fat, you should tell her if you love her, and have the difficult conversation just saying, Look, I, you might not have noticed it, or maybe you have you're hiding from it over the last four or five months put in a lot of weight. Are you feeling more depressed? Is it comfort eating or something is bad for your health. And it makes me finally less attractive, I don't want that for you or for me. So this might hurt to have to talk. But we need to do something about it. Like that's good male leadership. Because if you let her carry on putting on a couple of pounds a month here and there, and then that carries on for five years. It's going to hurt her heart and her internal organs and shorten her life, and she's not going to be there for your kids. But some guys will be terrified to have that conversation because they think they're being mean. So you have to accept that part of your duty as a as a man is to have these difficult conversations. And as a boy, teenage boy, surrounded by all these ideas in schools that you're supposed to accept to be a nice person, you have to learn to speak your mind. Yeah,

Curt Storring 41:01

how much of this cultural talk do you have with your son, because what we've tried to do is like just have the conversations, like our kids are 10, eight, and three. But with the older ones, it's kind of like, they just know that this is where we stand. And they just know that we're optimizing for truth. And they just know we're optimizing to row the family bow toward God. And I think it's good to have these conversations in early age. And I'm curious what you think about that, if you're sort of bringing him into the cultural milieu as you go about this.

Will Knowland 41:31

I think, if possible, don't have the conversations. But the problem is, it's often impossible to avoid having them because they come for your kids outside the home. And you have to correct the faulty information. So I would like to be able to say that until puberty, don't talk about sex. Like, why bother, just educate their kids, let them be innocent. Don't talk about homosexuality, don't talk about any of these perversions. Don't talk about delusions like transgenderism, we don't need that at all. You can just enjoy playing together. And then you can read some Bible stories, you can read some of the traditional literature, sports, Sunshine exercise, and then just love and laughter and happiness, how childhood should be. But what is it now the average age of first exposure to porn is around 1011. Sometimes even younger than that, like seven, there's dark forces out there that are going to come and get your kids sooner than you would like them to. So you need to arm them against that. And sometimes this can mean rather than being on the backfoot, trying to get in there first and give some preventative education. So their minds are a bit stronger when they are assaulted. So my kids will roll their eyes a bit and come and tell me Oh, we've heard this from so and so thinks that she's a lesbian. That's ridiculous, isn't it that and we'll talk about the evidence showing that ex gays outnumber gays and are no one talks about this in schools and how so many people have just passed through it as a phase. And it's more common than not to do that. And how God doesn't make anybody gay. And even from a secular term of biology, like what is sex for procreation? Can homosexuals reproduce? No, they can't. So we get into some of the reasons behind it. And is younger than I would like to. But if you don't do it, then you're not providing that protector role that you should be doing.

Curt Storring 43:42

Yeah, that's that's an interesting, I wasn't even. Um, we haven't gone down the sex route yet. For similar reasons, like what you're saying, and yet I saw the kindergarten classrooms at the school next to us, we're playing in the park, we homeschool our kids for the first time this year. And there's like the whatever they're called the rainbow flag stickers on the kindergarten rooms. And it's like, you're being forced to have these conversations earlier and earlier. And yeah, and I was just curious how you guys did it, because it's a constantly moving target that, unfortunately got to hit properly. I do want to make sure we've got time because I'm just like, personally super interested in a lot of the stuff you're posting is like, you know, this is what happened to Rome. Rome went the way the dodo is, you know, like, we're on this track 2060 Americans done. And I'm like, dude, like, I agree, I can't disagree because it's fact. And yet, I'm always going like, well, and then what? Like, are we supposed to do anything about this? Or like, what is your view on the like, can we actually do anything? Or is it just like, let's be aware, and make the most of it? Where do you fall on the action side of it?

Will Knowland 44:46

Yeah, so there's both sides to it isn't there, there's the you could fall into the black pill view of it, which is everything is going to fall apart around us. And we have the The same patterns of behavior that there were in falling Rome, and in all other kinds of societies that went this way. But the Christians and Jews, for example, in Rome, who outlasted it grows from the ashes, they resisted the tide of mainly sexual degeneracy that was threatening to sweep them away. And they stood strong against it and ended up as the only fertile communities. And they showed that even though with all that happening around them, it's possible to still live a good life in a degenerate wider culture. So that saying that hard times, make strong men strong times strong and make easy times easy times, make soft men etc. You shouldn't fall into that as some kind of deterministic cycle, and think that there's nothing you can do about it. Because you are the leader of your own family. And you can live the way that you think is right by resisting What's wrong around you. And God will give you the help to do that. And you've still got the responsibility to carry out Christ's commandments. Or if you're not Christian, you've still got the responsibility to uphold the natural moral law that everybody knows about, even without the Bible, although the Bible is the best clarification and development of it. So there's no need to get pessimistic thinking you can't achieve anything, life still a wonderful thing, and you can make the most of it. So I don't think that people should look at any of these cycles of decline in societies that are very similar to what we're going through now. And think it somehow means that everything is meaningless. In fact, the the main problem with those societies, the main symptom of decline is people losing confidence and not wanting to have children. And then the declining fertility rate is, in a way, like a feedback loop. So population dwindles, often, some kind of neighboring culture will see this and think right weakness, we're going to attack, and then they get overtaken, and the stronger culture flourishes. Instead, people think that's happening in the west now with Islam, for example, generally higher birth rates than in the West. And they're a bit more aggressive and confident because of their religious faith. Now, what does the Christian view of history have to say about this? Well, we know like you're not that the biblical view of history isn't some kind of never ending cycle, it ends in Apocalypse. So things do just slowly get worse and worse, until the apocalypse. So the lights are slowly going out one by one. And this is why every man is ultimately in the same situation that the Spartans were qinglian itis, with the Persian arrows, blotting out the sun. And it's like, that's right, it's fighting the shade. That's it. And for some people, this will look like I've forgotten his name now. Because it Boromir in Lord of the Rings, where he gives enough time for the hobbits to escape. And then, you know, that scene where the arrows come in again and again into his chest, and a New York just comes up to him. And then that's it now, okay, you've sacrificed yourself. There's dignity in that there's dignity and going down fighting. And the Christian twist on this, the Christian twist is that you are ultimately made for the resurrection. So we know that is victory in the end, but it comes at the cost of great sacrifice or endurance. And you have to live through the darkness in that ultimate light. You've got that Pagan Perspective on things like a man dies on his feet. But by the way, because of Christ, he doesn't die, he rises again. And everything you do is for that greater glory. So if I wasn't a Christian, I would still be pumped up by the idea of dying on my feet. But the fact that I'm a Christian means that death is transcended, and the apocalyptic vision of history. I mean, given the reality of sin and the devil and fallen human nature, I'm not sure how it was ever going to end otherwise. It's the leftist liberal view of reality that we are perfectible, and human nature is basically really good. And at some point, we're going to create heaven on earth that has always historically proven to be completely wrong. targeted disaster. Like the the most bloody political realities have always come from the most bloodless political philosophies like we're all nice we can get together and we'll create a utopia. That's Marxism in a nutshell, will make the perfect society by getting rid of all these corrupt institutions. And what do you get 100 million people murdered roughly.

Curt Storring 50:26

Amen. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's really good, man. Because like, I get in that too. I'm like, Well, yeah, it's obviously going down, like, Duh. And then it's like, oh, man, well, I'm so new in the faith as well, that I'm finding these like, okay, like, my buddy was talking this morning about Psalm 91. Like just resting in his shadow. It's like, okay, I'm gonna be good. And I have a duty to my family, and to society into Christ to keep pushing forward. And I think that's maybe all I needed, because I'm seeing this. And there's nothing on the back. And I'm like, Huh, I wonder what he thinks about this. So I appreciate the clarification on that. And I know, we've got like, I don't know, nine minutes or something. So I want to maybe just hit like a couple of touch points. One of which, I don't know, if you've got like a quick answer to this, we could just take the whole rest of the time. Like if you could just wave a magic wand. And every Western man could get like one attribute or one thing to turn back the tide? Is there something that you wish for men to understand or to have? Or to? I don't know, man, like just be sunk in with Is there a way that we could just make things great.

Will Knowland 51:28

So I would take it back to the main way in which most Western men were attacked in the first place, which is encouragement of fornication, so sex before marriage, and also contraception. Now, why were those two things weaponized against men in the sexual revolution, if you look at what the feminists actually wrote about that, is because they thought that promoting promiscuity was going to be the best way to undermine the family, and therefore male authority within it. So God doesn't give men as single guys, or authority over just random women walking down the street, I That doesn't make any sense. Some of the red pill bachelor types, talking about male authority, have got it the wrong way around within the society of the family, just like the captain of a football team, for example, has authority within that team to call the plays, and get everyone working together to win the game. But when the game is over, and he just walks down the street expecting to have authority over random guys who aren't in his team. Now, that's not how it works. So the male authority is within the context of the family specifically. And by giving men sex before marriage and without family. You're basically taking what should have been that arduous path of like transformation, rite of passage and having to earn those things and move from being a boy to a man move from just being a consumer to a provider, you're giving them what should have been their biggest motivation. And let's be honest, sex is the thing that motivates most men. You're giving it to them early when they haven't earned him. And you're also saying, they haven't irresponsibly. Because the whole point of contraception is you're saying, I just want this to be about My pleasure. I don't want any responsibilities to come with it. But with no responsibilities, you also get no real authority, either. Like at that point, you're just seeing women as a toy friction for fun, and you're disconnecting sex from family. So it's no surprise that men have ended up in the mess they're in because of that. Now, if more men had wives had kids, then what would we see? One thing you'd see is that they've got more skin in the game, like they care more. And, again, not from a religious perspective, you look at what marriage does to a man's earnings, boost sit. Most studies say around 15 to 20%. Because they're not just working for themselves anymore. They take life more seriously, overall. And you can talk to many guys about how becoming a father made them wake up, change their habits? Of course it did. This is the ultimate rites of passage because now things matter. It's not you just playing video games or messing around smoking weed, and trying to have sex the whole time with women you don't care about. That's no way for a man to live. That's how a teenage boy thinks it's fun to live because he's dumb and doesn't understand things properly. But a man has to wake up from them. But sadly too many guys don't. And the attack plan was basically keep them in that state of arrested development as Peter Pan's being pacified with porn until they are, sadly sometimes in their 40s.

Curt Storring 55:10

Man, that's convicting stuff. I love that. Thank you. I think that what would be most useful now if you've got like, Man, I'm going to need to do a part two man, I'm so interested a lot of stuff you're saying here? Do you want to touch on raising religious household, despite not having been brought one up in one yourself or reading program for kids? Which one of those best for five minutes?

Will Knowland 55:32

I could go on a little bit longer in five minutes if you can? Yeah, I'm good. All right. So the first one was religious household despite not having had religious upbringing myself. So when I was in my early 20s, I had a pretty similar worldview to most people my age in terms of what it looked like practically, although I probably had some more sophisticated rationalizations for it than the average person just from what I'd read at the time. So I was really into this Nietzschean worldview, where it's all about power, and like the strongest survive, and morality isn't really anything objective. And your perspective on things is relativistic. And it's hard to pin down what truth is perhaps even impossible. So you get this like, fantasy vision, a teenager's fantasy vision of what a strong man looks like some kind of mixture of Conan the Barbarian. And various like Marvel action figures, Captain America, that kind of stuff, a caricature of masculinity. And what's interesting with that is that so much of it comes from Nietzsche's idea of the Superman. And you've got no real sense of connection to family and duty and responsibility, like Nietzsche hardly writes about women or children at all. Like, what does the Superman do all day just sit on a mountain somewhere, being super, we never really told what his life looks like. So it was difficult for me, in my early 20s, when I first had kids, to fully understand how to mesh those ideas. That sounded cool when I read about them in books, with the reality of day to day life, learning to love my wife properly, and my kids as well, and me not being the center of everything. And that slowly led me to the Christian view of things. And then, understanding how much of the masculine tradition in Christianity has been downplayed, and hasn't been properly articulated to my generation. I'm 37. And probably even more so to guys a bit younger than me. I thought Jesus seemed like some kind of wet, hippie figure with nothing important to tell men. The arguments for God, I mean, they can all be dismissed as being unscientific, right? And then you've got evolution. And then I started to look into what the roots of some of these misconceptions are. And you look at the arguments of people like the New Atheists, Richard Dawkins, etc. And the haven't addressed the arguments for theism at their strongest, often, it looks like they have become atheists at about age 13, and never bothered looking at religious religion past that point, and kept a 13 year old objections to it. So that made me there's a lot of respect for my own viewpoints to the extent they overlap with those. And then really more deeply in philosophy as well. And then looking at the case for the resurrection and the empty tomb. And just thinking, what do I have to believe instead of Christianity? And then you started to get into things like infinite empirically undetectable, multiverses, which is the way the scientists will try to take you when they feel like the argument from cosmic fine tuning, for example, is making them feel uncomfortable. So you can see that actually, they've got no problem with believing things that aren't empirically detectable, even though they say that that's the reason that I believe in God. Same with the origins of life, for example, Oh, it must have floated here from another planet, on spores from Alien plants something or maybe aliens introduced it. So I just kept seeing all these empirically undetectable things that weren't scientific. You've been used to bolster this supposedly hardline empirical worldview. And that was interesting for me at the time as a young man like Oh, so you guys do believe lots of things that A science in principle can't support. But that's really interesting because you've been inconsistent. And I've lost respect for you over that. And then looking into some of the traditional philosophical arguments for God understanding them better. That cleared away a lot of the dead wood, in my mind that was holding me back from taking Christianity seriously. And then it was like, I've messed up as a as a father, because my main duty was supposed to be about teaching this to my kids. And I feel so bad that we weren't doing like daily Bible reading. And I wasn't making them do their prayers in the morning in the evening, I've lost so much time, God will be really angry with me. And then you can get into wishing, you can turn back the clock. But there's no point in doing that. Because you can't, what you can do is just learn from it and then repent. And then each day, just try and do better, and accept that this is just a part of human frailty, and have pity on kids who are in the same situation as well and try and do what you can to help them. So I think people in that situation can feel very overwhelmed. There's too much to do. But really, a lot of fatherhood. And especially religious instruction is about getting a few things that are big, done consistently over a long period of time. So it's like when you go into the gym. As long as you're getting pretty decent workouts in most of the time of a long enough period of time, you're going to get results like even if you go through bad patches. So for for dads struggling with this, I would have something like daily family prayer, even if it's only a few minutes, try and do it morning and evening. And then get to church on Sundays. And then try and do a little bit of Scripture as well. If you can't manage it every day, at least do it a few times a week. And then you're just making space for something and showing it's important. And then over time, it will all start to trickle into the kids minds. There's that image isn't there that the Jesuits used to use for teaching. If you get a bottle with a narrow neck, and you try and pour loads of water in at once, most of it will spill. But if you do it one drop at a time, then you'll eventually get it all in so little and often consistently is the way to get this stuff done. And be honest about the fact that you get things wrong sometimes and you struggle with things like maybe you might snap and get really stressed sometimes, and then speak too harshly to somebody and just say that was my mistake. And then if you're Catholic, you're going to confession, same as they are as well. And admitting fault that I think that's really important. Some guys think that if they admit fault is a sign of weakness, but actually, it's just being realistic. And it's a sign of strength. So that's important to model to kids. And then another big part is you're going to have to control TV and social media and like the entertainment diet of the family and kids, because they're always going to be getting catechized or taught some kind of moral. And I don't think there actually are any non spiritual worldviews. So I'm gonna say even like liberalism, although it pretends to be non religious, it's actually just idolatry of the self and sects, that it's a religion of those things. A false idolatrous worship of sex and the ego, your kids are going to be learning that religion. If you just do nothing, that's the default that will come at them. So you have to fight back against him, do a little bit of your own thing in the home. And just like, you know, a military general might put up extra defenses around some kind of encampment or castle to stop people making encroachments behind his lines, smartphone, screen control apps, block TV channels, you know what the music videos, gonna be promoting twerking, and promiscuity, all the rest of it, and immodest dress. And you don't want to feel kids minds with that. So take the appropriate action. And then think about books they're going to be reading as well. Music they're listening to Plato's got a great point about music having a way of worming its way into the soul. So music because of the rhythms and the aesthetic appeal of it is particularly powerful. So I think some music without lyrics can be important. Yeah,

Curt Storring 1:04:57

yeah, those are all very similar to what we've come up with as well, and especially I was going through the same thing like how do I make up for lost time? And it's like, well, no, you don't man, like you've been put here, by God for this reason at this time for these kids, and it's like, do your best. Make this a reality in your life, show them again through the leadership of your actions, that is real. And then go through like you said, we've got, you know, scripture reading, we've got church, we've got all these things. And then making it real also includes ownership. I think ownership is like such a, we've touched on this a number of times, so I'll go into it. But like it's such an important part of leading, because you have to be able to trust that you know, where your limits are. Anyway, you probably have to go. But if you don't, we'd love to hear about your reading program for kids. Otherwise, well, I'll just text about or something.

Will Knowland 1:05:45

It briefly, I would say most people should start with the Greek myths and Norse myths. Those are really important stories, that as CS Lewis said, I like good dreams of the Christian revelation to come. So the kids should have a strong grounding in all the classic pagan myths. My son in particular really love Norse myths. So we used to read that together when he was like eight, nine, and some of the Viking adventure stories. There's one by Bankston called the long ships though his favorite, then like The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings as well. I think things like Harry Potter and some of the vampire romance fantasy novels for teenage girls, most of those should be avoided, I think that some of them will got some fairly subversive sexual messaging in. So be suspicious of anything that's been really heavily marketed. And it's really popular, and stick with some of the older classics, something like little women, black beauty, the older childhood classics, I think, are really good for girls to read, especially. And then reading bits of the Bible with the kids as well, as a family and you reading it aloud. I think that's really important too. Now as they get older, I think some knowledge of history, as well as just the mythology is really good. So learning about Greece and Rome, and whatever country you actually live in as well connect them to the roots of that, like, what are some of the big wars that people have fought in to defend it and uphold its traditions? And what are some of the different kings, queens, some of the major political disturbances? Not many schools teach this anymore? Because they're ashamed of it. So given that you are your child's main educator, you have to be aware of that. And fill in the gaps.

Curt Storring 1:07:51

Yeah, excellent. Well said, We, we've gone through a number of those. We're reading. I don't know, we're reading so much. I'm wanting to get them into endurance. Next was Shackleton and just show that leadership. And that man, the Bible, it stays there the whole time. They rescue it. It's beautiful. Anyway, man, I don't want to keep any more. I know it's late there. Thank you so much for doing this. Where can guys find you? If they want to learn more? I don't know what you're doing. Exactly. But please let us know.

Will Knowland 1:08:14

Yeah, I'm on YouTube. Now the nose and mixture of videos. I've got a podcast with some other Catholic guys called C mask Christian masculinity, which is on Fridays at 2:30pm. American time, ESP. And you can get me on substack where there's some more academic stuff, essays, and few podcasts as well, with various academics around the world talking on topics I'm interested in. And you can get me on Twitter and Instagram. Both Nolan knows there. And even Tik Tok as well. Although I seem to get banned on there a lot.

Curt Storring 1:08:53

I'm surprised you're still on all the other platforms, man. It's crazy. Well, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. And yeah, really just grateful for the fact that you're the guy stepping up and taking the burden for all of us. And I would just hope that everyone's inspired by that. So man, thank you very much for being here.

Will Knowland 1:09:07

Thanks a lot. pleasure to talk to you.

Curt Storring 1:09:11

Thank you for listening to the data work podcast. That's it for this episode. But if you would like to stay in touch between weekly episodes, why don't you go over to Instagram and follow me there because I drop a number of things throughout the week that are related to what we talked about on this podcast, but usually go a little bit deeper, provide some tips you can find me on Instagram at Dad.Work dot Kurt. That's da d w o RK dot c u r t. And please, if you have been getting something out of this podcast if it has touched you if it has improved your marriage or parenting or your life, would you please leave a quick review on Apple or Spotify. leave a rating. If you have a few extra seconds leave a quick review. That's the best way that we can get this work in the hands of more fathers. And I truly believe that we change the world. One father at a time because each father that Add parents better that loves better raises children who do the same. And in just a couple of generations, I feel like we could be living in a world much better than the one we live in today. Your review will help along that path. And I thank you so much for being here to listen until next week. We'll see you then.

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